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The thing you should remember about Rorschach is that history of the character started off like a regular "hero" even though his life kind of sucked. You see through the flashbacks how his world gets more and more twisted (reaching its apex with the kidnapped kid) and he pretty much becomes a grim sociopath because that is how he sees the world. Moore never intended people to associate Rorschach as the hero of the story and that is more a by product of the grim and gritty hero stories that popped up after Watchmen.
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Jan 22, 2015 03:04
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WickedHate posted:I don't really see the problem. He's just got a lot of issues from what he went through as a kid. He's still a hero who does the right thing, even if his outlook is gloomy. IIRC, Rorschach is a nihilist who has adopted a completely arbitrary moral code to try to make the world make sense. I think Alan Moore screwed up a little by making him self-aware of that fact, but the point of Rorschach is that that kind of idealism has nothing to do with doing the right thing. Moore is a humanist and Rorschach is the antithesis of that.
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Jan 22, 2015 03:06
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Boy it sure would be swell if somebody did some sort of follow up to Watchmen, maybe taking place in the future to see how his journals had an effect on the new utopian society. That couldn't possibly be bad could it?
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Jan 22, 2015 03:10
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WickedHate posted:Because he was pissed the others were going to keep quiet. He's very black and white; everyone else going along with is a betrayal of him and what he stands for. And without him dead, his word means very little. The only reason his journal has a chance of making a difference is because he 'went missing". Alive, he's just going to be perceived as a paranoid conspiracy theorist.
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Jan 22, 2015 03:17
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The Comedian goes through a breakdown when he finds out the plan, and I think Rorschach's response is similar https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQvBwPJvHf8&t=1345s
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Jan 22, 2015 03:28
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Ghostlight posted:He is black and white, which is why I think the grey in allowing Adrian's bomb to become a catalyst for a better world troubles him so much. I don't think he thought, at least in the movie version, that it was really for the better, or worth it, though(neither do I). Doctor Spaceman posted:The Comedian goes through a breakdown when he finds out the plan, and I think Rorschach's response is similar
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Jan 22, 2015 03:43
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WickedHate posted:This part always bugged me because once you've shot a pregnant woman to death and god knows what else it seems Adrian's plan can't be that horrifying. It really isn't any different then the atom bombs. It'd be like Charles Manson reading about Hiroshima in a history book and going "Man, that really hosed me up." I don't think much of that is analogous. Ethics and morals aren't some zero sum game wherein if you do some bad things (And I am definitely not about to make excuses for some of the poo poo the Comedian did) you are automatically totally fine with other bad things happening - particularly when he was essentially alone in knowing the full scope of Ozymandias' plot, which probably made him feel somewhat complicit. Then again I never read him as being completely and clinically sociopathic, which might make a difference.
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Jan 22, 2015 04:32
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WickedHate posted:I don't think he thought, at least in the movie version, that it was really for the better, or worth it, though(neither do I).
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Jan 22, 2015 04:45
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redbackground posted:I can buy it. He's been used to personal, small-scale stuff. Horrifying, awful stuff, but...small. Coming upon a plan to Save Everybody by killing millions? That can be a much more sticky wicket to get your mind around. I still don't see it. It's just more deaths all at once, and for a supposedly good reason. It's not like a murderer objecting to rape or something, it's just more murder, from a guy who's filled a grave or two personally. But: SomeMathGuy posted:I don't think much of that is analogous. Ethics and morals aren't some zero sum game wherein if you do some bad things (And I am definitely not about to make excuses for some of the poo poo the Comedian did) you are automatically totally fine with other bad things happening It could just be how I personally view things making it hard for me to understand. I can't get my head around someone that bad suddenly feeling weird about something that's The Same Thing But Bigger. Someone that does the stuff Blake did is at the very bottom of the morality scale to me and suddenly having objections over something with recent historical precedence done by the government he works for(including what he and Manhattan did in Vietnam) makes it weirder.
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Jan 22, 2015 04:52
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Rorschach sees the world only in black and white, and Adrian's plan is very, very grey -- it's perfectly engineered to be offensive to every possible ideaology (the whole point is to band them all together, after all). Just like everyone else in the ice, Rorschach is convinced that the plan will work and he can only make things worse by exposing it and bringing Adrian to justice, but he literally cannot live in a world where evil acts go towards good ends, where the killer of the Comedian (a fellow hero and a man Rorschach deeply admired) can never be brought to justice, where the commies are allies, where the superheroes confront the villain in his Arctic lair and go "okay, you win, we're on board". He can't. He can't live in that world, so he dies with the old one.
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Jan 22, 2015 05:22
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CapnAndy posted:Rorschach sees the world only in black and white, and Adrian's plan is very, very grey -- it's perfectly engineered to be offensive to every possible ideaology (the whole point is to band them all together, after all). "Very, very grey" is being polite. He destablized the world, pushed it to the brink of destruction, and then killed millions of people to fix it. It was ego stroking and in the end he was focused on profiting monetarily from it. Veidt was the biggest monster in a book full of them, but he placed his evil behind easy to swallow justifications. Justifications which don't hold together when carefully examined.
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Jan 22, 2015 06:07
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He didn't do it to profit from it; the financial benefits were part of him being in control of the aftermath. He saw himself as the only person who could fix the world.
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Jan 22, 2015 06:11
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Random Stranger posted:"Very, very grey" is being polite. He destablized the world, pushed it to the brink of destruction, and then killed millions of people to fix it. It was ego stroking and in the end he was focused on profiting monetarily from it. Veidt was the biggest monster in a book full of them, but he placed his evil behind easy to swallow justifications. Justifications which don't hold together when carefully examined. That's a very biased and value-tinted judgement of the character as written.
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Jan 22, 2015 06:12
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Doctor Spaceman posted:He didn't do it to profit from it; the financial benefits were part of him being in control of the aftermath. He saw himself as the only person who could fix the world. Yeah, he was already incredibly wealthy, setting the plan in motion was his life's work. He doesn't try to sugarcoat it, throughout the climax he's being arrogant, despotic, mad, but still honest. He knows he's killing people, but it doesn't matter because the ends justify the means. I don't think it's an evil decision, it's a cold, detached, emotionless decision that he made because he thought he was the only one who could. Though there's definitely a ton of ego involved, too.
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Jan 22, 2015 06:30
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Random Stranger posted:Justifications which don't hold together when carefully examined. Exactly. It just doesn't work, and I can't believe Rorschach thought it would work either. Veidt just wanted to be the one who made the tough decisions "necessary" to save the world. He thinks killing all those people makes him Christ dying on the cross for mankind's sins. It's pathetic and wrong.
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Jan 22, 2015 06:34
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WickedHate posted:
Read the entire loving comic. It's just 12 issues, it's not that long.
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Jan 22, 2015 07:04
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WickedHate posted:Exactly. It just doesn't work, and I can't believe Rorschach thought it would work either. Veidt just wanted to be the one who made the tough decisions "necessary" to save the world. He thinks killing all those people makes him Christ dying on the cross for mankind's sins. It's pathetic and wrong. Everyone thinks it could work, even Manhattan (hence his murder of Rorschach).
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Jan 22, 2015 07:07
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I can't loving believe people are arguing Ozymandias was right in a post 9/11 world.
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Jan 22, 2015 07:12
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We're not arguing he was right, we're talking about his motivations.
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Jan 22, 2015 07:15
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Everyone thinks it could work, even Manhattan (hence his murder of Rorschach). Right, because they're people who are well versed in the complexities of global politics. And I definitely wouldn't trust Manhattan's views on human psychology, and time was clouded and disjointed for him at that moment. I think Veidt essentially manufactured a crisis for the sake of his own vanity and even I think that he's the only person there with a anything resembling a handle on things. They're all buying in the line from a psychopath who just murdered millions of people and whose closest sign of remorse is essentially concern that he was right.
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Jan 22, 2015 07:23
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There are degrees to the awfulness with which people will inflict upon another, and while people will contextualise their awfulness as justified they don't necessarily extend that contextualisation to others even if it's in the same degree to a third party. The easiest way to understand Comedian's stance is that being an amoral Blackwater-style mercenary for your government doesn't mean you automatically agree with 9/11. Random Stranger posted:"Very, very grey" is being polite. He destablized the world, pushed it to the brink of destruction, and then killed millions of people to fix it. It was ego stroking and in the end he was focused on profiting monetarily from it. Veidt was the biggest monster in a book full of them, but he placed his evil behind easy to swallow justifications. Justifications which don't hold together when carefully examined. In the movie Niteowl gives the equivalent speech, at much greater length, but it's stupid because Veidt doesn't respect him in the first place and he can't speak with the gravitas that being an atomic god that exists across time can, so it's just assumed that because he's the protagonist the viewer will understand Veidt feels bad about it as the final shot of Veidt standing awkwardly in the ruins of his base shows he has been defeated in victory, despite the next scenes demonstrating the unity he's brought. In the comics the last thing you see of Veidt is him facing a wall looking over his shoulder apprehensively where Manhattan was, obviously tortured, but significantly it doesn't play up a sense of this moment being his defeat - the whole point is that his victory will slowly eat at him for the rest of his life.
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Jan 22, 2015 07:34
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Random Stranger posted:Right, because they're people who are well versed in the complexities of global politics. And I definitely wouldn't trust Manhattan's views on human psychology, and time was clouded and disjointed for him at that moment. I think Veidt essentially manufactured a crisis for the sake of his own vanity and even I think that he's the only person there with a anything resembling a handle on things. They're all buying in the line from a psychopath who just murdered millions of people and whose closest sign of remorse is essentially concern that he was right. I didn't get the impression that Veidt engineered the crisis out of thin air, but rather attempted to control certain elements to ensure the outcome he wanted. It's not like the Cold War wasn't threatening to go hot even before he started his plan. Manhattan (after his reconstruction) seems pretty clear-headed too. His "nothing ever ends" comment harks back to the original Ozymandius poem, where the legacy of a mighty king has been worn down to dust over time. Veidt won't be around forever, and anything he does achieve will eventually decay into irrelevancy.
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Jan 22, 2015 07:59
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Changing gears slightly, IDW has announced they will be publishing a new line of original Disney comics. Kind of odd since Disney owns their own comic boom company right? Is this leading to a speculated Disney purchase of IDW? Several insidery dudes seem to think so.
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Jan 22, 2015 08:35
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That means they canned all their Kaboom comics for nothing? 
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Jan 22, 2015 08:41
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I hate Disney just buying every company but if it gets people to finally shut up about Rom returning they can buy 'em.Rhyno posted:Was Fraction even invited? There's got to be a really great behind the scenes story on Fraction leaving Marvel because Hawkeye went from the must have Eisner winning book and example of what Marvel should be doing to them not even caring if the run ends or not and just pushing ahead with Lemire's run.
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Jan 22, 2015 09:34
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e: For some reason I thought he was only doing Satellite Sam and Ody-C, completely forgetting about Sex Criminals. Y'know, his obviously most known non-Hawkeye book. Never mind. You're doing fine, Matt. Teenage Fansub fucked around with this message at 11:35 on Jan 22, 2015 |
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Jan 22, 2015 11:19
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Lurdiak posted:That means they canned all their Kaboom comics for nothing? Well apparently they're reviving the Darkwing Duck Comic under a company called Joe Books. http://comicspire.com/2014/10/22/darkwing-duck-to-return-in-2015-for-new-ongoing-series/
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Jan 22, 2015 11:52
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Rhyno posted:Is it bad that I too can recognize Waid from his bald head?
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Jan 22, 2015 12:25
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Teenage Fansub posted:
I believe he's also said he's bringing back Casanova.
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Jan 22, 2015 12:43
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Waterhaul posted:There's got to be a really great behind the scenes story on Fraction leaving Marvel because Hawkeye went from the must have Eisner winning book and example of what Marvel should be doing to them not even caring if the run ends or not and just pushing ahead with Lemire's run. I know every post you make has to poo poo on Marvel but surely either Fraction or Aja are also maybe a little bit culpable here. The release schedule for Hawkeye was (is?) so completely hosed it's impossible for me to give a poo poo about that book nowadays.
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Jan 22, 2015 15:49
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Hakkesshu posted:I know every post you make has to poo poo on Marvel but surely either Fraction or Aja are also maybe a little bit culpable here. The release schedule for Hawkeye was (is?) so completely hosed it's impossible for me to give a poo poo about that book nowadays. Okay? I don't care about the book but was just reiterating stuff that's already out there. It was more the fact that Fraction said he finished his scripts ages ago so he's done with the book but still tried to publicly take heat for the delays off Aja, he left Inhumans due to "creative differences" and dropped FF/Fantastic Four very quickly. He also publicly spoke out that he wasn't happy with how Marvel were treating him and his wife. Like I wasn't making GBS threads on Marvel, just saying there's a story there more than just the book is late.
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Jan 22, 2015 15:57
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Sorry, I have no idea what exactly went on with behind the scenes, I'm just so sour at the way that book has been handled.
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Jan 22, 2015 16:00
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Hakkesshu posted:Sorry, I have no idea what exactly went on with behind the scenes, I'm just so sour at the way that book has been handled. Waterhaul only constantly shits on the MCU, not the comics.
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Jan 22, 2015 16:49
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I will have you know I only poo poo on the Whedon related ones and didn't care for Winter Soldier. I actually enjoyed Guardians 
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Jan 22, 2015 16:56
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Just think, someday in the far flung future they'll build movies so smart they'll be able to defend themselves on the internet.
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Jan 22, 2015 16:59
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Pick your favorite Doom voice actor! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxmYyj3j75I I think I like Templeman the most. It would be LaMarche but I keep thinking it's a Futurama bit.
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Jan 22, 2015 17:30
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zoux posted:Pick your favorite Doom voice actor! I would be a-okay with Orson Welles Doom.
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Jan 22, 2015 17:33
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Haha what is up with the first voice here? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxmYyj3j75I Was there a time people thought Wolverine was Australian? Also, Wolverine isn't even worth commenting about, we all agree Cal Dodd is canon how Wolverine sounds.
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Jan 22, 2015 17:39
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 I think you'll find Steve Blum is the One True Bub, bub.
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Jan 22, 2015 17:41
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Steve Blum forever, even if it is just a regular Steve Blum voice. EDIT: Gaz-L knows what's up.
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Jan 22, 2015 17:41
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