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ljw1004 posted:edit: I see only this sentence "Apps need to be tailored on each universal platform, of course, but there's huge code commonality." Well that's true even of iOS (universal binary between iPhone and iPad) and Android (universal binary between different form factors and different versions of the OS). .Tim posted:Eh it's a start. I assume as 10 evolves true universal apps will happen. Combat Pretzel fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Jan 21, 2015 |
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Jan 21, 2015 21:47
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Combat Pretzel posted:Blargh, how I parse Ars Technicas transcription of the Q&A session, it's still shared VS projects and not universal binaries. gently caress that poo poo. Yeah honestly this is totally unacceptable. When windows 8/RT was announced they promised same code different platforms. Visual studio can already build to multiple processors (as many of use know building x86 and 64 bit apps over and over again). One Project, multiple XAML files (or ideally one XAML file), then layout should be determined at runtime by the based on device capabilities. This is how webpages have worked for years, and how Android has worked from the very beginning (2009). (Of course you'll have to make separate builds for ARM and 64 bit, but it should be as simple as changing the dropdown in visual studio and hitting Cntrl-B.) I bet they still haven't unified the APIs yet.
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Jan 21, 2015 22:00
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Combat Pretzel posted:That's the one. The "code commonality" thing reads to me like the current status quo very hard. I think you're reading way too much between lines. It was my team who implemented the current status quo, Shared Projects in VS2013 Update2. All of us use the term "code commonality" equally for both universal binaries (e.g. Universal PCLs) and for shared-source (e.g. Shared Projects). I should add that we've improved Shared Projects a lot in VS2015 for C#/VB, in terms of the intellisense+compilation+coding experience. That's because we're keen on cross-plat .NET coding across other non-Microsoft platforms, and you're never going to be able to have a single universal binary that runs all of Android and iOS and WindowsPhone if you still want to get a good "native" experience, and so shared-source will always be a necessary fallback for that kind of scenario. ljw1004 fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Jan 21, 2015 |
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Jan 21, 2015 22:01
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This is the stupidest complaint, 99% of all apps will want to make at least some differences between a tablet app and a phone app, and separating them into projects sharing most of the contents in your IDE is the normal way to do it. If anything enabling the ability to put everything into a single project would just encouage bad practices. The important part is that they have the same APIs enabling all the non-formfactor-sensitive code to be shared.
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Jan 21, 2015 22:12
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ljw1004 posted:I think you're reading way too much between lines. 
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Jan 21, 2015 22:44
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:This is the stupidest complaint, 99% of all apps will want to make at least some differences between a tablet app and a phone app, and separating them into projects sharing most of the contents in your IDE is the normal way to do it. If anything enabling the ability to put everything into a single project would just encouage bad practices. The important part is that they have the same APIs enabling all the non-formfactor-sensitive code to be shared. I have all of my view models and commands in the shared project, and xaml views split between the Windows 8 and Windows Phone projects. With specific ones listed in their respective projects as needed. I think that workflow is fine and makes sense to me. My views are tailored to the platform they are running on, and wiring up some commands to the same base view model is easy to do. Edit: Speaking of apps, new Awful update got approved. Should be in the store soon. Drastic Actions fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Jan 22, 2015 |
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Jan 21, 2015 23:13
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So looks like Skype is finally being integrated? Bajillion dollar acquisition bearing fruit finally? I'll see it when I believe it.
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Jan 22, 2015 02:54
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Well, count me as one the disgruntled old fogeys who is a little disappointed at further departures from the original "metro" asthetic in the previews today. The biggest offenders being the Calender app and the wallpaper behind rather than visible through the tiles (which I really really liked). Seems however that most of the blogosphere really liked the new look though. Ah, well.
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Jan 22, 2015 03:21
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CalvinandHobbes posted:Well, count me as one the disgruntled old fogeys who is a little disappointed at further departures from the original "metro" asthetic in the previews today. The biggest offenders being the Calender app and the wallpaper behind rather than visible through the tiles (which I really really liked). You're not alone. In this article http://www.theverge.com/2015/1/21/7869441/windows-10-for-phones-features-hands-on there's a few images of the Messaging app (I believe), both the directory of recent contacts as well as a messaging thread- they both look ghastly. Add to that the fact that there's now a left and right swipe in Outlook to flag and delete e-mails (as opposed to the standard carousel), and it seems like the original design aesthetic is being splintered. Outlook looks like something from the new Google design style. That said, it may be worth it for all of the great new features they showed off. It sounds like they're finally integrating navigation into one primary app- hallelujah.
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Jan 22, 2015 04:56
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I wonder if Windows 10 will have some decent wearable support
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Jan 22, 2015 05:06
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ljw1004 posted:and you're never going to be able to have a single universal binary that runs all of Android and iOS and WindowsPhone if you still want to get a good "native" experience, and so shared-source will always be a necessary fallback for that kind of scenario. xylo posted:I don't think I have ever seen Combat Pretzel happy with anything MS has done. CalvinandHobbes posted:Well, count me as one the disgruntled old fogeys who is a little disappointed at further departures from the original "metro" asthetic in the previews today. Combat Pretzel fucked around with this message at 05:16 on Jan 22, 2015 |
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Jan 22, 2015 05:12
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Jewmanji posted:You're not alone. In this article http://www.theverge.com/2015/1/21/7869441/windows-10-for-phones-features-hands-on there's a few images of the Messaging app (I believe), both the directory of recent contacts as well as a messaging thread- they both look ghastly. Add to that the fact that there's now a left and right swipe in Outlook to flag and delete e-mails (as opposed to the standard carousel), and it seems like the original design aesthetic is being splintered. Outlook looks like something from the new Google design style. Towards the end there though, after the image of the new messaging app, is that...a trackpoint? 
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Jan 22, 2015 05:57
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On a sidenote my 930 came in and works great on AT&T. I had to set the MMS APN for MMS but otherwise it's awesome and I'm pretty happy. HSPA+ is easily fast enough for me and I'm debating on flashing a different ROM to get denim for the Hey Cortana dealio. I just wish I could insure it via the MS store as I did with my other phones, but they can't replace an import so they wouldn't do it. 
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Jan 22, 2015 06:01
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Jewmanji posted:You're not alone. In this article http://www.theverge.com/2015/1/21/7869441/windows-10-for-phones-features-hands-on there's a few images of the Messaging app (I believe), both the directory of recent contacts as well as a messaging thread- they both look ghastly. Add to that the fact that there's now a left and right swipe in Outlook to flag and delete e-mails (as opposed to the standard carousel), and it seems like the original design aesthetic is being splintered. Outlook looks like something from the new Google design style. Actually it looks closer to Ice Cream than Lollipop - those apps look really, really bad. Metro had some issues and the reliance on huge typography was overdone at points, but excising pivot controls, horrible icons and tiny fonts - basically it looks like a cheap Android knock off. Metro needed some pruning but this is taking a chainsaw to the concept. Cripes MS is laughably schizoid when it comes to design.
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Jan 22, 2015 06:39
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Jewmanji posted:You're not alone. In this article http://www.theverge.com/2015/1/21/7869441/windows-10-for-phones-features-hands-on there's a few images of the Messaging app (I believe), both the directory of recent contacts as well as a messaging thread- they both look ghastly. Add to that the fact that there's now a left and right swipe in Outlook to flag and delete e-mails (as opposed to the standard carousel), and it seems like the original design aesthetic is being splintered. Outlook looks like something from the new Google design style. Not to harp on this, and i'll stop atfter this comment. And also not to minimize the tremendous work that's clearly gone on behind the scenes improving the core functionality. But the images of the home screen in that link with the user selected photos are just awful. Background image behind the tiles works well in Laptops and tablets since there is so much real estate around the tiles. In the phone form factor, there is only minimal space between the tiles and the bezel. Background image visible through the tiles worked so much better.
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Jan 22, 2015 06:59
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Why are the contact images in "Messaging" circles instead of squares like everything else on the platform
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Jan 22, 2015 07:55
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OldPueblo posted:On a sidenote my 930 came in and works great on AT&T. I had to set the MMS APN for MMS but otherwise it's awesome and I'm pretty happy. HSPA+ is easily fast enough for me and I'm debating on flashing a different ROM to get denim for the Hey Cortana dealio. I just wish I cou I'm getting tired of waiting the dev preview of denim for my 925 while my mom's 635 has it already. What is a nice source for rom flashing?
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Jan 22, 2015 14:27
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CalvinandHobbes posted:Not to harp on this, and i'll stop atfter this comment. And also not to minimize the tremendous work that's clearly gone on behind the scenes improving the core functionality. But the images of the home screen in that link with the user selected photos are just awful. Background image behind the tiles works well in Laptops and tablets since there is so much real estate around the tiles. In the phone form factor, there is only minimal space between the tiles and the bezel. Background image visible through the tiles worked so much better. This, though the image-through-buttons is harder to get right RE: user selectable images. They seem to have increased the dead space between tiles to get the background to pop through, at least on the screen perimeter, which is a bit of a regression. I like big beefy buttons. I'm more concerned with the ad-hoc Android aesthetic in the messaging and the burger icon everywhere. I was attracted to Metro by the square geometry and utilitarian blocks of colour. Circles don't figure anywhere in the core UI/UX (except in the camera shut up I know). I can't seem to find anything on the calendar app - what are the problems with it? Good things - skype integration! This is not coming soon enough, especially for international calls and the T-Mobile Sperg Tarriff.
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Jan 22, 2015 15:22
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 I really don't think this style of calendar works on the phone, yeah. I'm in two minds about the hamburger menus in general - they are a concession and a move away from some of the original design language, but the panorama and pivot views didn't always work well either (particularly thinking of the WP8 Music app putting Now Playing in the panorama rather than as a separate view). Since the panorama and pivot views don't really work on larger screens, it feels like they've changed the WP ones for consistency with desktop Windows 10, which makes WP feel less unique. Circles in Messaging definitely needs fixing though. I can only assume they were going for consistency with Skype with that, rather than consistency with the platform.
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Jan 22, 2015 16:04
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Oh my fucksy! Yeah that calendar is stupid, I hadn't seen that before... Microsoft seems to think converging desktop/mobile means desktop regresses to oversimplified W8 Metro, mobile becomes unwieldy Windows Mobile of the 2000s. Someone please tell them the backend is fine to integrate (hell, I want the same information wherever I am), but the UI does not need to be identical or indeed similar. I don't want to swipe and panorama on a giganto desktop monitor, I don't want to pick at bitty functions and tables in emails on tiny mobile screens. You can be consistent with language without mimicking. Just don't bring faux 3D, drop shadows, reflections, or shading into it. Flat colour plskthx.
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Jan 22, 2015 17:35
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Venusy posted:I really don't think this style of calendar works on the phone, yeah.
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Jan 22, 2015 17:46
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CalvinandHobbes posted:Well, count me as one the disgruntled old fogeys who is a little disappointed at further departures from the original "metro" asthetic in the previews today. The biggest offenders being the Calender app and the wallpaper behind rather than visible through the tiles (which I really really liked). Yeah, the new background images thing is decidedly horrifying, but I imagine accent-on-black will remain an option at least for the home screen, so I don't see too much reason to complain (I hated the see-through-tile background thing as well, so I have mostly just worked through the anger already). Outlook dropping the pivot is actually more troubling, but I think I can live with that too. I'll certainly update the moment it becomes possible.
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Jan 22, 2015 18:44
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This view of the calendar looks much more rational/better:
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Jan 22, 2015 22:35
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smr posted:This view of the calendar looks much more rational/better: That's not too bad- a dark theme would definitely help (which they are apparently bringing to full-blown Officem so who knows). The enormous amount of white space still looks a bit too much like Android to me which I have a pavlovian response against.
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Jan 22, 2015 23:40
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Jewmanji posted:That's not too bad- a dark theme would definitely help (which they are apparently bringing to full-blown Officem so who knows). The enormous amount of white space still looks a bit too much like Android to me which I have a pavlovian response against. Not even just office... they're doing a whole Dark Theme for Windows as a whole I believe.
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Jan 22, 2015 23:42
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BonoMan posted:Not even just office... they're doing a whole Dark Theme for Windows as a whole I believe. Have you heard/read this somewhere, or are you assuming that based on the dark taskbar in more recent builds of Windows 10?
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Jan 23, 2015 00:13
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WattsvilleBlues posted:Have you heard/read this somewhere, or are you assuming that based on the dark taskbar in more recent builds of Windows 10? I remember reading this somewhere a while ago. I think it was on Windows Central. It wasn't confirmed at the event though.
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Jan 23, 2015 00:58
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Given Windows 10 running both desktops and phones, what one can do (at least UI wise), the other can very likely, too.
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Jan 23, 2015 12:01
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Combat Pretzel posted:Given Windows 10 running both desktops and phones, what one can do (at least UI wise), the other can very likely, too. I don't know if I misunderstood the presentation, but is the desktop still a thing on small tablets running Windows 10? I could have sworn I saw Belfiore or someone else running Paint etc. on the desktop, with taskbar and task switcher etc. I thought they were trying to get rid the desktop for tablets in Windows 10? Or was that some sort of hybrid device?
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Jan 23, 2015 12:48
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That was an 8" device, with unknown specs. Not sure where the getting rid of the desktop comes from, tho. Even the Surface RT had a desktop, you just couldn't install Win32 apps that weren't digitally signed with Microsoft's certificate. Regardless, IIRC the presentation said below 8" you are supposed to use Windows Phone 10 / Windows 10 Mobile.
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Jan 23, 2015 12:53
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I have an 8" W8.1 tablet and I almost never go to the desktop, except when using Office - it just isn't useable at that screen size.
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Jan 23, 2015 13:22
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I was confused about that during the presentation. Verge says that small tablets just have regular Win10 running in touch mode rather than Windows 10 for phones. Though the touch targets don't seem to have been adjusted for small tablets yet. I don't use the desktop on mine often, but it can be better for file management and if I want to run something on Steam.
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Jan 23, 2015 13:56
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Win32 apps don't have "touch targets" per se. Your finger controls the mouse cursor, which hits the regular control surfaces. High resolution on a small screen, this will be a pain in the rear end. You can improve this by setting the high DPI mode on the desktop, but it scales only up to 140% IIRC.
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Jan 23, 2015 15:45
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Combat Pretzel posted:Win32 apps don't have "touch targets" per se. Your finger controls the mouse cursor, which hits the regular control surfaces. High resolution on a small screen, this will be a pain in the rear end. You can improve this by setting the high DPI mode on the desktop, but it scales only up to 140% IIRC. Are you sure about that? WPF apps support touch directly, including multi-touch, which is far more than just the mouse cursor: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ee649090(v=vs.110).aspx http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/692286/WPF-and-multi-touch And if WPF can do it, then I'm sure win32 apps can do it too. Maybe it's because WPF uses DirectX to render its graphics and also uses DirectX for touch input? or some other reason? Maybe you specifically meant user32.dll apps?
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Jan 23, 2015 17:10
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In your terms, user32.dll apps. Unless a non-WinRT/WPF app goes out of its way to deal with imprecise touch input, it'll be awkward to use on high resolution displays outside of high DPI mode.
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Jan 23, 2015 17:18
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Plain Windows desktop programs written in any language can get multitouch too, there's nothing special about WinRT or .NET that allows only them to get touch things. Developer docs for the touch API, as far as I can tell it appeared in Windows 7.
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Jan 23, 2015 17:23
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Not talking about multitouch. Unless I have a different idea of what a touch target is.
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Jan 23, 2015 17:27
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The Win32 Touch API I linked there is really entirely low level, as well as has some higher level wrappers. You can get touch input (user places finger on screen, user moves finger on screen, user lifts finger from screen) and do whatever you want with it. If by a "touch target" you mean any section of screen that reacts to a tap, well sure you can do that. If you mean a target that is actually larger than the displayed element, e.g. 2 mm margin outside a button that also reacts to input, allowing the user to hit less precisely, sure you can do that. It's not built in, but you can do that. You can probably write yourself a basic framework for it in a few days, maybe they even already exist.
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Jan 23, 2015 17:43
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Is it just me, or has this update removed the ability to have app purchases just added to your phone bill?
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Jan 24, 2015 14:08
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I switched over to a Bluetooth car adapter after I replaced the audio Jack/secondary MIC on my 920. Is there a way to make the audio quality on Cortana and other non music /video playback sources not sound like total poo poo? For some reason it plays that stuff like its on the other end of a tech support phone menu
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Jan 24, 2015 23:15
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