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This might not be right, but I remember the story shifts to being almost completely the Vimes plot about halfway through.
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Jan 24, 2015 22:55
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That's what I remember too! I really liked the last half, especially Death being forced to have a near Vimes experience Colons misadventures start out frustrating and get better and better IIRC. The end of that arc is pretty great too.
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Jan 25, 2015 02:48
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GodFish posted:This might not be right, but I remember the story shifts to being almost completely the Vimes plot about halfway through. Oh. That's comforting. I remember thinking, when I stopped reading last time, that Vimes has the most character. And I think maybe that's because he's an archetype. Whereas I don't even know how to read Carrot or Colon - it seems like their mannerisms change from one paragraph to the next, and not necessarily when the situation also changes.
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Jan 25, 2015 06:13
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supermikhail posted:Oh. That's comforting. I remember thinking, when I stopped reading last time, that Vimes has the most character. And I think maybe that's because he's an archetype. Whereas I don't even know how to read Carrot or Colon - it seems like their mannerisms change from one paragraph to the next, and not necessarily when the situation also changes. You're thinking of the opposite. Colon and Carrot are basically archetypes, whereas Vimes and Angua go beyond that somewhat.
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Jan 25, 2015 07:22
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Well, Vimes is a disorganized, gruff PD with a certain amount of smarts and self-deprecation, plus a somewhat strict moral code. Carrot - I don't know anymore. He started out buff but dumb, basically; then he's suddenly elusively wise; last time he placed duty above all; and in this book he's nearly switching to "thou" in pretty high and formal speech, and running after Angua with no fucks given for the city.  As for Colon, my chief complaint is that in one passage his speech is filled with apostrophes for streetwise flavor, and in the next he might as well be carrying a dictionary around.
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Jan 25, 2015 08:04
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supermikhail posted:Well, Vimes is a disorganized, gruff PD with a certain amount of smarts and self-deprecation, plus a somewhat strict moral code. Carrot - I don't know anymore. He started out buff but dumb, basically; then he's suddenly elusively wise; last time he placed duty above all; and in this book he's nearly switching to "thou" in pretty high and formal speech, and running after Angua with no fucks given for the city. Personalitywise, Colon is a stock cop and Carrot is a stock good guy (with all the implications that there's something more being in the way other characters interact with him). Vimes has an inner monologue that's a little more fleshed out while Colon and Carrot have 1-d inner monologues when we peek inside their heads briefly.
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Jan 25, 2015 08:09
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The thing about Carrot is that while he is incredibly naive he gradually becomes more worldly while maintaining his air of naïveté so well that the narrator ends up saying things like "only a truly complex person could present themselves as being so simple" and that's Carrot in a nutshell. Carrot is more than just a stock good guy, he will straight up cold heartedly ice a villain if he has the opportunity, heck, he will lie to a villain, pretend to be on his side, and then kill him the second he has the opportunity without any warning whatsoever. That's not a stock good guy thing.
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Jan 25, 2015 10:10
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Blind Melon posted:The thing about Carrot is that while he is incredibly naive he gradually becomes more worldly while maintaining his air of naïveté so well that the narrator ends up saying things like "only a truly complex person could present themselves as being so simple" and that's Carrot in a nutshell. Well, no. It's been a while since I've read Men at Arms, but Carrot's depth comes entirely from other characters being suspicious of his motives because he's outwardly completely a good guy and purely heroic. In that scene, we read it like how you said because that's how Vimes sees it. I'm pretty sure that the raw dialogue is set up so that Carrot could also have been completely sincere, just like at the Fools' Guild earlier. Carrot probably (in as much as we can meaningfully dig into the personalities of these characters) has much more to him than the outward perception, but of course his character relies on our inability to get into his head.
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Jan 25, 2015 10:30
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Well, you're right, it could have been sincere, right up to the point where he puts his sword through the guys chest so hard it pins him to a stone column and it obviously wasn't. The guy has the drop on Vimes and Carrot plays his dumb naive game just long enough to get close enough to the guy to gut him. It's not a generic hero trait. Its not sincere. It's not even honest. He straight up lies to the guy just to get close enough to kill him. That's Carrots thing. As things progress he stops being truly naive and innocent, and just remains that way because he prefers it. Until someone tries to pull something over on him and it becomes apparent just how much he has picked up from VImes. It's the villian with the gone if there is anyone here who hasn't already figured that out. When did he do the teaching hooligans soccer thing? That was very similar, initially you think Carrot is simply naive but after he gets them playing a game instead of being violent you really have to wonder, if it actually worked, is it truly naïveté? Blind Melon fucked around with this message at 12:29 on Jan 25, 2015 |
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Jan 25, 2015 12:17
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Oops. That's the problem with book threads - people have usually read further than you. 
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Jan 25, 2015 13:40
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Blind Melon posted:When did he do the teaching hooligans soccer thing? That was very similar, initially you think Carrot is simply naive but after he gets them playing a game instead of being violent you really have to wonder, if it actually worked, is it truly naïveté? The better example is in Soul Music, where the Quizzing Machine is installed at the Mended Drum. Carrot gets into it and adds a bunch of questions asking who committed various unsolved crimes, leading to a number of arrests.
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Jan 25, 2015 14:03
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Blind Melon posted:Well, you're right, it could have been sincere, right up to the point where he puts his sword through the guys chest so hard it pins him to a stone column and it obviously wasn't. Well, reread it. His actual dialogue never actually agrees with Cruces and he just says that the papers are interesting. It's carefully set up to make you think, like Vimes and Angua do, that Carrot is incredibly manipulative, but it's also possible that he's just that straightforward. The papers are interesting, but Ankh-Morpork does not need a king. The soccer thing is in Jingo, and there's also hiring Reg Shoe to handle undead liaison work in the same book, and there are a couple things in TFE too. But they're all carefully set up so that either interpretation is possible. There's a really good quote in Night Watch about Vimes that can also apply to Carrot, but I don't wanna spoil it.
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Jan 25, 2015 17:05
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There is literally no way Carrot is actually that straight forward. Remember this is the guy who first tried to arrest a Dragon. Guy has grown. He's not a hero archetype, he's a more realistic take on the "One True King", a King who arrived at the city he was destined to rule, and then, being actually a good King, decided that the place was better off in someone else's hands. It's why he gets to arrest dragons and kill villains with nobody batting an eye. Blind Melon fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Jan 25, 2015 |
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Jan 25, 2015 18:37
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Blind Melon posted:There is literally no way Carrot is actually that straight forward. It actually would be funnier if he was, and the main event that kicks Night Watch off just wouldn't work if it were all an act (or else Carrot's an incredible, mind-boggling rear end in a top hat).
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Jan 25, 2015 18:39
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Did I say it was all an act? No. In fact, I went out of my way to make it clear I meant otherwise. Now you are just deliberately misrepresenting me. You have a very interesting (and disturbing!) concept of sincerity. Blind Melon fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Jan 25, 2015 |
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Jan 25, 2015 18:41
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Blind Melon posted:Did I say it was all an act? No. In fact, I went out of my way to make it clear I meant otherwise. Please don't jump on me for not seeing your edit, it's rude. He's also not a realistic character either way.
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Jan 25, 2015 18:52
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I made that point well before my edit. Get over yourself. You are still deliberately misinterpreting me.
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Jan 25, 2015 18:53
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Blind Melon posted:I made that point well before my edit. Get over yourself. Settle down, Beavis.
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Jan 25, 2015 19:02
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drat, it would sure suck if something in a Pratchett novel was inconsistent between books.
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Jan 25, 2015 19:06
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Effectronica posted:Settle down, Beavis. Translation: You are 100% correct and I am being an rear end in a top hat, but you have got me too riled up to actually admit it so I'm going to make some pithy comment and slink off into the night. Vv v Yuuuuuuuuuuup Blind Melon fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Jan 25, 2015 |
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Jan 25, 2015 19:17
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Blind Melon posted:Translation: You are 100% correct and I am being an rear end in a top hat, but you have got me too riled up to actually admit it so I'm going to make some pithy comment and slink off into the night. If that makes you feel better, sure.
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Jan 25, 2015 19:34
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Blind Melon posted:Translation: You are 100% correct and I am being an rear end in a top hat, but you have got me too riled up to actually admit it so I'm going to make some pithy comment and slink off into the night.
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Jan 25, 2015 19:57
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Lmao. I can't count the number of people who I met online who initially thought I was some seriously angry dude and quickly realized that I take very little of this seriously. Tell me more about how I'm frothing at the mouth please. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 25, 2015 20:01
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Blind Melon posted:Lmao. I can't count the number of people who I met online who initially thought I was some seriously angry dude and quickly realized that I take very little of this seriously.
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Jan 25, 2015 20:05
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Blind Melon posted:Lmao. I can't count the number of people who I met online who initially thought I was some seriously angry dude and quickly realized that I take very little of this seriously. Looks like we've got a badass over here.
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Jan 25, 2015 20:06
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^^^ Stone motherfucking cold one right here. *settles into couch* Tell me more doctor.
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Jan 25, 2015 20:07
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This thread needs editors as badly as Terry does.
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Jan 25, 2015 20:07
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Effectronica posted:Looks like we've got a badass over here.
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Jan 25, 2015 20:07
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mirthdefect posted:This thread needs editors as badly as Terry does.
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Jan 25, 2015 20:08
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Guys sometimes it is ok to not get the last word on the internet.
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Jan 25, 2015 20:08
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Oooooh I get it now. Idiots defending their own.
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Jan 25, 2015 20:09
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FactsAreUseless posted:He's almost as big an out of control renegade as Captain Carrot, a man with nothing left to lose. Lol. FactsAreUseless posted:Editor's, I think you'll find. Lol, again.
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Jan 25, 2015 20:10
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Blind Melon posted:it becomes apparent just how much he has picked up from Vimes. Vimes puts words in his head.
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Jan 25, 2015 20:30
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Well, personally, I feel like giving you a right ding round the lughole.
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Jan 25, 2015 20:36
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supermikhail posted:Well, Vimes is a disorganized, gruff PD with a certain amount of smarts and self-deprecation, plus a somewhat strict moral code. Carrot - I don't know anymore. He started out buff but dumb, basically; then he's suddenly elusively wise; last time he placed duty above all; and in this book he's nearly switching to "thou" in pretty high and formal speech, and running after Angua with no fucks given for the city. I wouldn't say Carrot was dumb. I would say more naive. He came to the watch having memorized the code of law or whatever that book is called. A dumb human couldn't pull that off. He just did't realize that the world doesn't actually follow the book of law to the t. That humans make simple things complex. I haven't read much of the Sam Vimes books but what you stated, it seem that overtime Carrot becomes less naive, and sort of lets it go.
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Jan 25, 2015 20:43
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mirthdefect posted:This thread needs editors as badly as Terry does. It's called the ignore button.
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Jan 25, 2015 21:00
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DrNewton posted:I wouldn't say Carrot was dumb. I would say more naive. He came to the watch having memorized the code of law or whatever that book is called. A dumb human couldn't pull that off. He just did't realize that the world doesn't actually follow the book of law to the t. That humans make simple things complex. As the books like point out, simple is not the same as stupid.
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Jan 25, 2015 21:47
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Okay, new topic: It really annoys me that Stephen Briggs reads all the characters from the monastery in Thief of Time with the standard Atlocious Oliental-Sounding Accent. I had a lot of problems with the large-cast recording* but that wasn't one of them. *although it did get Death's voice just right. People always try to give him A VERY DEEP BASS VOICE and it just doesn't work for many people if they don't actually already have deep bass voices.
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Jan 26, 2015 01:15
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TO be fair, it's hard to beat Christopher Lee as Death.
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Jan 26, 2015 13:02
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tooterfish posted:As the books like point out, simple is not the same as stupid. That is the whole point though... Carrot isn't simple. As the books point out later, you have to be fairly complicated to actually pull off being Carrot.
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Jan 26, 2015 16:53
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