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I just watched it. I'm not from the US, and people here tend to blame capitalism and imperialism for all their problems, but holy poo poo, even I got to admit this is kinda silly. I guess my opinion isn't that popular, but after reading about the guy I feel the movie glossed over too much stuff. No mention whatsoever of political context, no questioning of his terrible decisions (let's take PTSD victims to a shooting range! Many times!) or the whole conflict, no mention of all the bullshit he spew, he uses "savages" a couple times which felt like filling a quota when he reads like being a huge xenophobic rear end in a top hat, Iraqi characters felt pretty one dimensional and in a sense you're supposed to feel terrible for this guy and everything he has gone through while also only showing one side of his story? Jesus. He was a loving sociopath, so good ridance.
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Jan 25, 2015 20:02
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Azran posted:He was a loving sociopath, so good ridance. Seems like he served his time admirably, had a loving family, and was trying to help people in need. Told some tall tales maybe, but a lot of people do. Maybe you should calm down a little and get some perspective.
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Jan 25, 2015 20:25
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Arkane posted:Seems like he served his time admirably, had a loving family, and was trying to help people in need. Not angry or anything though? I dunno, I think calling an entire ethnicity "savages" and wanting to kill more of them is kinda sociopathic but who knows really.
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Jan 25, 2015 20:40
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Arkane posted:Maybe you should calm down a little and get some perspective. You love and venerate a dead, lying soldier in a land that has living, homeless heroes who actually need your respect and affection. This country, and the war, made Chris Kyle into a sociopathic mess. We shouldn't be proud of that. Chris Kyle is, in every way, what is NOT supposed to happen to a war veteran. If we have ANY perspective, we will stop worshipping his corpse and learn to fear his outcome for our own, living veterans.
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Jan 25, 2015 21:17
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Killing hundreds of people at a great distance under rules of engagement he understood as making everyone male between 16 and 65 a legitimate target makes him almost certainly a war criminal. Lots of people do tell tall tales, but the choice of the tale matters. Choosing to brag about mass murder of black civilians during a natural disaster makes him either merely deeply hosed up, or if we actually believe him like we believe his escapades in Iraq, one of the worst spree shooters in recent history. Fortunately for Kyle we apply a very selective standard to him, and invent crap out of whole cloth to make him look good. Taking PTSD people to the shooting range is moronic and he is fortunate that this resulted in only his own death. Then add on the publicity around him generating the aura of hero worship. Yeah, seriously, gently caress this guy. Fangz fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Jan 25, 2015 |
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Jan 25, 2015 21:19
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Arkane posted:Seems like he served his time admirably Naw. He was a weird as gently caress dude that they made a boring movie about.
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Jan 25, 2015 21:19
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Arkane posted:Seems like he served his time admirably, had a loving family, and was trying to help people in need. Chris Kyle openingly admits in his book that the only reason why he joined the military was to shoot Muslims, which he felt were all savages, and that he enjoyed killing people. What about that is admirable? He should never had been allowed to enlist.
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Jan 25, 2015 21:40
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I don't see why wingnuts feel anyone has to really try to insult Chris Kyle, anyway. The fact that he bragged about sniping thirty of his own goddamn countrymen in New Orleans right after Katrina because he thought it would make him look cool says much worse things about him than anything I could think up, personally. Also there's like no way at least half of the people going "OOH RAH gently caress YEAH CHRIS KYLE WAS AN AMERICAN HERO, HE DID ALL THAT KILLING FOR YOUR FREEDOMS" weren't talking about how John Kerry was not a REAL soldier and/or wearing purple heart bandaids 11 years ago. Jerry Manderbilt fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Jan 25, 2015 |
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Jan 25, 2015 21:44
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Great movie, definitely deserves the Oscar nomination for best picture. I hadn't heard of Chris Kyle before seeing the movie, although I knew it was based on a real person. I thought I had read he was still alive which made the ending quite a shock. I imagine any movie about a real person will take some liberties and gloss over some of their less personable characteristics, and even more so when it's a person who died so recently, but in the end it's just a movie, made to entertain (and make money). And I think it did so really well (on bouth counts), it was thoroughly entertaining, the war scenes were well paced and suspenseful, and despite being quite long it never felt sluggish. It was obviously one-sided in its view of the war, no half assed "humanizing the enemy" bullshit, just Go America throughout, which is fine and kind of refreshing after seeing a lot of movies with a different viewpoint.
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Jan 25, 2015 22:18
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Eb posted:Great movie, definitely deserves the Oscar nomination for best picture. "Well hey, the guy might have been a cowardly, thuggish, bigoted war criminal, but maybe the truth is in the middle!!!!"
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Jan 25, 2015 22:21
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icantfindaname posted:To be perfectly honest the United States needs the experience of a gruesome war / occupation with massive civilian casualties if it's ever going to get the idea of "war is bad" hammered into its skull. The great antiwar works from WW2 are all Russian, German, and Japanese, like suddenly those countries realize "oh, that's what those liberal cranks were getting at, I understand now!!!!" I hear ISIS is recruiting.
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Jan 25, 2015 22:49
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Eb posted:Great movie, definitely deserves the Oscar nomination for best picture. The problem is the lack of taking the book/Kyle head on. It kept the one dimensional nature of Kyle's perception of the enemy without also keeping Kyle's blood lust, and that's what presents most of the problems. Taxi Driver and Observe and Report both accomplished this, so the template was there. If the movie had a nuanced enemy then at least there would have been a balancing act, but injecting personable traits into someone who gleefully discussed their bloodlust while keeping their views of those they killed is effectively just propaganda used to justify said bloodlust.
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Jan 25, 2015 23:13
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Eb posted:Great movie, definitely deserves the Oscar nomination for best picture. I refuse to believe that anyone who has seen more than one movie that is up for BP could possibly think this film deserves a Best Picture nod. Beyond the lovely politics, it's a terrible movie. All the characters are cartoonish caricatures, the entire plot boils down to "Enemy at the Gates, but worse" (and being better than EatG is not a high bar to begin with), and everything from the cinematography to the score to the dialogue is limp and forgettable. Also, ahaha, in what world is "Go America" a refreshing stance in a war film? Are you forgetting Lone Survivor, Zero Dark Thirty, Act of Valor, Hurt Locker, not to mention the small-scale stuff like Jarhead 2. I hate the argument that "it's only entertainment" because that implies that media has no impact on its audience beyond temporary distraction. There are a hell of a lot of people that are going to have their perception of history (and Chris Kyle) colored by this film's blatant revisionism. There should absolutely be some degree of accountability involved when you are selling socially irresponsible propaganda as "based on the True Story (tm)!" Instead it gets to hide behind a veneer of "art" despite the utter lack of artistry in any facet of the film.
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Jan 26, 2015 00:01
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Team America: World Police is the perfect palate cleanser after seeing this piece of poo poo movie, I found.
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Jan 26, 2015 00:09
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Panzeh posted:This movie is pretty much Nation's Pride but a full length movie and unironic. That's what makes it awesome. [edit] Azran posted:Not angry or anything though? I dunno, I think calling an entire ethnicity "savages" and wanting to kill more of them is kinda sociopathic but who knows really. Can I get the actual quote from Kyle where he said that? Was it in his book? I didn't read it. teagone fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Jan 26, 2015 |
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Jan 26, 2015 00:12
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teagone posted:That's what makes it awesome. "If you see anyone from sixteen to sixty-five and they're male, shoot 'em. Kill every male you see." “I only wish I had killed more." “I loved what I did … It was fun. I had the time of my life.” “I don’t shoot people with Korans – I’d like to, but I don’t.” All directly from his autobiography.
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Jan 26, 2015 00:33
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:"If you see anyone from sixteen to sixty-five and they're male, shoot 'em. Kill every male you see." Dude was nuts, but I don't see him calling an entire ethnic group savages. The guy was a SEAL too. Aren't all SEAL operators alpha male types who joined the armed forces to just straight up kill? Only difference is Kyle got some publicity. [edit] Also, those quotes are taken out of context. What was he directly referring to when he said "I loved what I did... It was fun. I had the time of my life." Was that referring to him killing people or just being a SEAL in general? teagone fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Jan 26, 2015 |
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Jan 26, 2015 00:45
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teagone posted:Dude was nuts, but I don't see him calling an entire ethnic group savages. The guy was a SEAL too. Aren't all SEAL operators alpha male types who joined the armed forces to just straight up kill? Only difference is Kyle got some publicity. I mean, if you want the full context you kind of have to read the book for yourself. It's very clear from his writing that he had zero qualms about killing and thought that he was doing God's work. He does use the term "savages" several times throughout the book, but people argue that he's only referring to enemy combatants. There isn't much point arguing either way since he doesn't clarify, and what you believe is probably going to end up depending on how you view Kyle. I think it's pretty safe to assume that he had a pretty drat bigoted view of the Iraqi people, considering he flat-out admitted (as quoted above) that he wanted to shoot people that were walking down the street with Korans in their hands, which doesn't really need any additional context to roundly condemn. There is one scene in the book where he talks about not wanting to shoot a kid, but that's literally the only time he seems to consider an Iraqi to be an actual human being. And no, that is not what all SEALs are. It is, in fact, an attitude that they specifically try to screen out. Whether they are successful or not is another matter. edit: Which is all to say, if "He's terrible, but maybe not that terrible" is the best defense that can be mustered, maybe trying to sell him as a good ol' All-American hero is a questionable decision, at best. Grizzled Patriarch fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Jan 26, 2015 |
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Jan 26, 2015 01:12
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teagone posted:Dude was nuts, but I don't see him calling an entire ethnic group savages. The guy was a SEAL too. Aren't all SEAL operators alpha male types who joined the armed forces to just straight up kill? Only difference is Kyle got some publicity. You should read the book before you say those statements have been taken out of context. His feelings on killing muslims and iraqis are made boldly apparent in his book. There's no dog whistle involved, he straight up says he loves killing them.  There is a lot more just like that in the book, this just happens to be convenient. Kyle had a crusade mentality in the most literal sense and explicitly stated so. He lied about a whole lot of incidents that were made up entirely whole clothe. He still owes vets 3m that he clearly never planned on paying back (as evidenced by him immediately using the money to invest/start a business). He lied about beating up an old man . He lied about killing two carjackers. He lied about finding WMDs. He (hopefully) lied about killing dozons of people during Hurricane Katrina. The movie you saw has the perception of Chris Kyle's enemies through his eyes, but with Kyle seemingly conflicted. The dude wasn't conflicted at all based on his own book. He also 100% unironically and uncritically loved the Punisher and wanted to be Frank Castle. He tells the reader that his god is fine with him killing savages. The way to make the movie good was to take a Taxi Driver angle or better yet, The Informant!
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Jan 26, 2015 01:36
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mugrim posted:You should read the book before you say those statements have been taken out of context. His feelings on killing muslims and iraqis are made boldly apparent in his book. There's no dog whistle involved, he straight up says he loves killing them. Also, where exactly are the excerpts where he talks about sniping LOOTERS *wink wink* from the top of the Superdome?
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Jan 26, 2015 01:42
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mugrim posted:You should read the book before you say those statements have been taken out of context. His feelings on killing muslims and iraqis are made boldly apparent in his book. There's no dog whistle involved, he straight up says he loves killing them. He literally had a red Crusader's cross tattooed on his arm, for anyone who doubts this.
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Jan 26, 2015 01:47
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:I hate the argument that "it's only entertainment" because that implies that media has no impact on its audience beyond temporary distraction. There are a hell of a lot of people that are going to have their perception of history (and Chris Kyle) colored by this film's blatant revisionism. There should absolutely be some degree of accountability involved when you are selling socially irresponsible propaganda as "based on the True Story (tm)!" Instead it gets to hide behind a veneer of "art" despite the utter lack of artistry in any facet of the film. In this case I think several different movies could have been made from the source material, and this is one of them. It's not like the source material is some absolute truth, and the thought of some random audience member thinking the Chris Kyle in the movie was a cooler guy than the Chris Kyle in the book doesn't really keep me up at night. Also can you explain how you measure this objective amount of "artistry"? mugrim posted:The movie you saw has the perception of Chris Kyle's enemies through his eyes, but with Kyle seemingly conflicted. The dude wasn't conflicted at all based on his own book. Eb fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Jan 26, 2015 |
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Jan 26, 2015 01:48
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Jerry Manderbilt posted:Also, where exactly are the excerpts where he talks about sniping LOOTERS *wink wink* from the top of the Superdome? He told several members of the press in off air interviews: quote:"Years after those alleged killings, Kyle had another story to tell. This one referred to the vacuum of authority in New Orleans following Katrina, when the city slipped into chaos. According to the New Yorker and several military publications, Kyle and a few other SEALs drank late in San Diego late one night in early 2012. “The SEALs began telling stories, and Kyle offered a shocking one,” the New Yorker reported. “…He and another sniper traveled to New Orleans, set up on top of the Superdome, and proceed to shoot dozens of armed residents who were contributing to the chaos.” The magazine said one conversation participant said Kyle “claimed to have shot thirty men on his own,” while another said Kyle and the other killed 30 between them." Here is the Original New Yorker article.
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Jan 26, 2015 01:55
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Eb posted:For me, and I suspect most people, movies are mainly just entertainment. Filmmakers should not be required to only make "socially responsible" movies that educate the masses. You don't think that films can be used as tools? That the media has no influence on society's perception of history? There absolutely is a responsibility involved when you are making a film like this. It's one thing to make a movie where the violence is portrayed against a fictional backdrop. Of course you aren't going to eliminate the politics in film, and I don't advocate that. There is absolutely a place for films that I (and anyone else) disagree with. The problem here is that there is no fictional backdrop. You don't get to use a real-life conflict with real-life people, call it a "True Story," and then whitewash history and deliberately lie / mislead the audience. If you don't think there ought to be any accountability involved, I don't know what to tell you. When a film crosses the line into deliberate propaganda, there are additional considerations at play. Make a movie like Dredd if you want to have a popcorn action flick. Don't push a racist piece of revisionist history set against a decade-old conflict that the average U.S. citizen is infamously loving ignorant about. Chris Kyle's portrayal bothers me because it's a flat-out lie (and yes, an autobiography is about as close to "absolute truth" in source material as you can get), but the film selling Iraq as a justified conflict stemming from the events of 9/11 is the real issue I have with at the end of the day. And yes, art is subjective, who cares. If you think this film is well-made, you have poor taste or haven't been exposed to better films. Everything about it is cliche and bland. Some people are going to disagree of course, but in this case I'll happily plant my flag on the same hill as every professional film critic with any credibility. Grizzled Patriarch fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Jan 26, 2015 |
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Jan 26, 2015 02:07
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mugrim posted:You should read the book before you say those statements have been taken out of context. His feelings on killing muslims and iraqis are made boldly apparent in his book. There's no dog whistle involved, he straight up says he loves killing them. Chill. I said I didn't read the book and just asked for some sources is all. I was presented with lines of text that seemed out of context. But with all the poo poo you just said, ok cool I get it. Kyle was probably a lying piece of poo poo who got a movie made about his supposed exploits as a SEAL sniper and general real life "badassery". He's dead now though. Are you trying to convince me that American Sniper paints a disgusting picture of America's prejudice towards Iraq and Muslims through the eyes of a sociopathic rear end in a top hat? Because I honestly don't give a poo poo about Kyle's viewpoints or who he was. I'm willing to bet like every 3 out of 4 SEALs are just like him anyways. teagone fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Jan 26, 2015 |
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Jan 26, 2015 02:10
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mugrim posted:He told several members of the press in off air interviews: That was just a drunken tall tale? You guys made it seem like he devoted an entire chapter of his book to it. Grizzled Patriarch posted:the film selling Iraq as a justified conflict stemming from the events of 9/11 is the real issue I have with at the end of the day. Eb fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Jan 26, 2015 |
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Jan 26, 2015 02:16
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Eb posted:So that was just a drunken tall tale? You guys made it seem like he devoted an entire chapter of his book to it. Nobody said that. In fact, as people pointed out, it's almost assuredly bullshit (since, you know, he was a virulent liar). The issue is that he thinks bragging about murdering "looters" in cold blood without any form of due process makes for a badass bar story. quote:So basically you'd be fine with the movie if they had removed the 10 second scene of Chris seeing a plane ram the WTC? That isn't the only way they try to push the 9/11 narrative, but even if they removed that, it's still a deeply racist film that glorifies the idea of of the noble, professional soldier in black in white terms in the context of a war that was waged under false pretenses. Lionizing Kyle while sweeping 150,000 dead Iraqi civilians under the rug (except for the ones that make good cartoon villains!) is pretty lovely, dude. edit: And, you know, it would still be a boring, poorly-shot and poorly-structured movie. Grizzled Patriarch fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Jan 26, 2015 |
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Jan 26, 2015 02:19
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Arkane posted:Seems like he served his time admirably, had a loving family, and was trying to help people in need. Wait, Arkane has been a troll this whole time?
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Jan 26, 2015 02:31
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:edit: And, you know, it would still be a boring, poorly-shot and poorly-structured movie. The movie was meh and I couldn't register any tone throughout most of it, but I wouldn't say it was poorly shot. I thought it was actually a pretty good looking film, from a cinematography perspective.
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Jan 26, 2015 02:32
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teagone posted:Chill. I said I didn't read the book and just asked for some sources is all. I was presented with lines of text that seemed out of context. But with all the poo poo you just said, ok cool I get it. Kyle was probably a lying piece of poo poo who got a movie made about his supposed exploits as a SEAL sniper and general real life "badassery". He's dead now though. Are you trying to convince me that American Sniper paints a disgusting picture of America's prejudice towards Iraq and Muslims through the eyes of a sociopathic rear end in a top hat? Because I honestly don't give a poo poo about Kyle's viewpoints or who he was. I'm willing to bet like every 3 out of 4 SEALs are just like him. His kill record as a SEAL sniper specifically is probably true and there is no reason to suspect he didn't kill at least 160 people. It's all the other shi. To the question in bold: Yes, yes I am. The problem is keeping his viewpoint of a one dimensional enemy that needs to be exterminated, without keeping his personality in tact. It effectively 'grounds' the horrific perspective and makes you examine the material less critically than you would otherwise. This is done in a lot of fictional narratives so you don't really think all that much about Orcs/Nazis/whatever being massacred (which can also be problematic as they're often analogues).The problem with doing this 'based on a true story' is the issues it causes on people's perceptions of reality. People think the movie is 'mostly true' and there's a new surge in patriotism/anti-muslim sentiment. I earnestly believe this sentiment would be less intense if Kyle was portrayed as having fun with the whole thing. People would be horrified. Show him lying constantly. Show him smiling over and over and treating it like a video game. When someone is conflicted they assume a sense of honor that really isn't there and that's part of the problem with trying to eliminate blood lust in a mass killer. But it gets deeper than that. It's effectively a retelling of both the lost cause confederate trope as well as that of the chivalrous knight. It's that idea of killers with honor who hold true to a code in defense of country and life. But the reality is all those things are lovely and done for lovely reasons. If you don't mind killing, you typically don't mind breaking any code you proclaim to have as a general rule. It's a nostalgic view of the past that is put there to make people more comfortable instead of showing something even moderately genuine. Eb posted:That was just a drunken tall tale? You guys made it seem like he devoted an entire chapter of his book to it. It was, but the Ventura story was told several times on air, as well as promising to donate all proceeds from the book (which is part of why I bought the book when it was being advertised), as well as his interview where he discusses a defensive shoot in Texas that never happened. Also, the WMD story is explicitly in the book. The only one of those that is hearsay is the Katrina story and for that story he told multiple people including another seal who put it in their book. mugrim fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Jan 26, 2015 |
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Jan 26, 2015 02:36
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teagone posted:The movie was meh and I couldn't register any tone throughout most of it, but I wouldn't say it was poorly shot. I thought it was actually a pretty good looking film, from a cinematography perspective. I'd call the cinematography adequate / formulaic. There weren't any truly great shots and only a few outright bad ones, which is about par for the course. The film's structure, pacing, and characterization are whacked, though, and as a war film it really just ends up being a less tense version of Enemy at the Gates. Which is funny given all the book chat, since the entire rival sniper that the movie focuses on was pulled from a single line in the book that mentioned a rumor about an ex-Olympic sharpshooter that Kyle never encountered. mugrim posted:
Not to mention that this is a "code" that allows for the killing of US citizens on US soil without due process for the heinous crime of stealing consumer goods. Grizzled Patriarch fucked around with this message at 02:42 on Jan 26, 2015 |
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Jan 26, 2015 02:37
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This was really not a well or interestingly shot film. I mean, except to say that the person speaking was usually in frame, there's zero to praise about it. Something like Blackhat would just blow your drat mind if you thought this was good cinematography.
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Jan 26, 2015 02:41
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:This was really not a well or interestingly shot film. I mean, except to say that the person speaking was usually in frame, there's zero to praise about it. Something like Blackhat would just blow your drat mind if you thought this was good cinematography. Yeah. I'm less surprised that a big chunk of America wants to worship this guy and this film than that Hollywood itself felt the need to give a bunch of Oscar noms to a pretty mediocre film.
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Jan 26, 2015 02:54
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Take the church bombing in Selma. There is nothing remotely as interestingly shot or staged in this entire film. I mean, there's the dumbass crap with the Bad Sniper (who has a bad theme song, so you know he is a bad sniper, as opposed to the good sniper) but it would barely rate in another movie. Homeland is just an awful show and has been for a couple years now, and any random episode looks better, is paced better and has some kind of goddamn tone or point of view.
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Jan 26, 2015 02:57
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Zwabu posted:Yeah. I'm less surprised that a big chunk of America wants to worship this guy and this film than that Hollywood itself felt the need to give a bunch of Oscar noms to a pretty mediocre film. I'll agree that this movie in nowhere near Oscar caliber, but ehh America. HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:This was really not a well or interestingly shot film. I mean, except to say that the person speaking was usually in frame, there's zero to praise about it. Something like Blackhat would just blow your drat mind if you thought this was good cinematography.  I've definitely seen worse. Taking scene composition and color/lighting into account, I thought American Sniper was fine. The night scenes also didn't look like total poo poo. There might not have been any truly standout shots (the sequence of Kyle's first tour with the mom and child handling the grenade was pretty good though), but the visuals were pretty consistent imo.[edit] HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Homeland is just an awful show and has been for a couple years now, and any random episode looks better, is paced better and has some kind of goddamn tone or point of view. Ok, I watch Homeland and that's being a bit harsh on American Sniper, haha. At least in visuals. Pacing and tone though I agree. teagone fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Jan 26, 2015 |
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Jan 26, 2015 03:00
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I've seen worse but typically not in movies. The last movie I remember being this flatly and incompetently staged was (surprise) J. Edgar.
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Jan 26, 2015 03:02
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The tensest moment of the entire film is the very first scene, and it even fucks that up with a smash-cut flashback. Making the rival sniper such a big part of the film is also completely bizarre, given that it's impossible to make that premise tense unless you somehow never turned on the news / opened a paper in the months after his death and the months leading up to this film's release. Then his death is handled with a title card like it's a show on TLC. It's all just so amateurish. Grizzled Patriarch fucked around with this message at 03:05 on Jan 26, 2015 |
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Jan 26, 2015 03:02
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Think about this - the way the "trailer scene" plays out in the actual film feels way more like a trailer for another, stupider movie. Can you name another movie like that, that would make you think "wow, they really hosed up the quiet tension from the trailer"?
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Jan 26, 2015 03:04
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Think about this - the way the "trailer scene" plays out in the actual film feels way more like a trailer for another, stupider movie. Can you name another movie like that, that would make you think "wow, they really hosed up the quiet tension from the trailer"? It's like the opposite of all those tense slow-burn films that pack all the action into their trailers.
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Jan 26, 2015 03:06
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Wow, this tense, thoughtful moral conundrum this sniper is dealing with is sure hurrying to a commercial break.
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Jan 26, 2015 03:07
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