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ulmont posted:1s definitely cancel successes out in both Vampire Revised and Vampire 20th. You're right, I just went and checked. Well my group did it wrong for a long time and it was totally fine. 
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Jan 26, 2015 01:21
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When my gaming group briefly played V20, I got to see an 18-die roll at TN 8 produce a single net success thanks to 1s subtracting. I've fallen a little out of love with the nWoD's TN 8 - if it could all be done over again, I think I'd give the system as a whole a lower base TN so that it was easier to make ballpark predictions of how many successes a given action could generate, and therefore easier to write mechanics that counted how many successes someone got rather than whether or not successes were gotten at all.
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Jan 26, 2015 01:39
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1s subtracting successes fucks with probability in such a way that success chances actually go down when a dicepool goes up by one from an even to an odd number of dice.
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Jan 26, 2015 01:41
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Can I see the math behind that one? I know that at TN 10, having more dice is literally no better than having fewer dice, but even at TN 9 the expected value of a single die is +0.1 successes, isn't it?
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Jan 26, 2015 01:42
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Here you go. However, I was wrong - it's going from odd numbers to even numbers that causes success to go down.
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Jan 26, 2015 01:45
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I'm terrible at probability stuff (Deep Southern US school system  ) but IIRC the TN 8 with rerolling 10s in nWoD gives roughly 1/3rd of a success per die.
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Jan 26, 2015 01:48
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Gilok posted:I'm terrible at probability stuff (Deep Southern US school system 3/10, so 30% per die.
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Jan 26, 2015 01:51
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I believe the actual mathematical reason is that on an even number of dice it is more likely for 1s to cancel out all successes, as you can roll an equal number of 1s and successes more easily.
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Jan 26, 2015 01:53
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Gilok posted:I'm terrible at probability stuff (Deep Southern US school system As stated, TN 8 10-again means an average of one success with every three dice, with an additional third of a success for every three successes/nine dice. 9-again makes it an additional two-thirds of a success, 8-again is an entire additional success. This is why spending Willpower gives you three extra dice on a roll: it effectively gives you an extra average success. Lowering the number required to reroll is mostly helpful when you have a shitload of dice already.
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Jan 26, 2015 02:00
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Mors Rattus posted:Here you go. Ah, that's specifically at TN 2 (And of course when you move from five dice to six dice, your probability of getting at least six successes goes up from 0 to 53). At TN 6 or similar, adding dice seems to always increase your expected value.
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Jan 26, 2015 03:05
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I know we've stuck with oWoD rules mostly because everyone was pretty unimpressed with nWoD core lines, and creating a character while swapping between the Mortal and Supernatural books was a massive pain in the rear end. That and the nWoD character sheets aren't very aesthetically pleasing compared to oWoD. I generally run with 20th anniversary rules, 1s take away successes, and 10s count as double, because rerolling 10s to get nothing felt really hit and miss. That said, Mage was usually houseruled to 1s taking away dice (highest first) instead of successes, mostly to avoid botching every third magic roll due to rolling so few dice, so you only botch when the majority of dice come up 1. Botches still happen with enough frequency to be fun, the other night I had a 4x1s botch while while making a focus to spot demon-parasite things, which resulted in accidental reverse-polarising the lens. After a few minutes of panic over everyone being full of demons, I was convinced to put them on backwards, and then started fixing them. Maybe nWoD less frequency of rolls might make rerolling more fun, but I never really liked the unreliability of rerolling 10s, aside from the odd time when someone rolls a streak.
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Jan 26, 2015 03:19
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I think the dice mechanic of nWoD is a net upgrade over oWoD and I see no way to make sense out of people preferring the former except nostalgia/force of habit.
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Jan 26, 2015 04:07
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Yea I use nWoD dice pools / skills* / stats in my Mage the Ascension game (I even hosed around a bunch to create a custom character sheet for it), my experience running a long Transylvania Chronicles / Gehenna game really demonstrated how bad most of the old system was when you gotta put up with it for more than a couple of sessions (* except Socialize that is a stupid skill so I replaced it with Awareness - a kind of social weirdness radar) Grim fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Jan 26, 2015 |
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Jan 26, 2015 04:38
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Gilok posted:I'm terrible at probability stuff (Deep Southern US school system Your expected value is one success per 3 dice, but that doesn't tell the whole story — it's a binomial distribution, P(X≥1)>95% only happens at 8 dice or above, P(X≥1)>99% is at 11 dice (rounded to the nearest %).
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Jan 26, 2015 10:13
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MonsieurChoc posted:I think the dice mechanic of nWoD is a net upgrade over oWoD and I see no way to make sense out of people preferring the former except nostalgia/force of habit. As a guy who prefers oWoD corebooks to nWoD across the board (C:tL and P:tC being exceptions) I agree. I prefer the pre-God Machine nWoD dice mechanics.
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Jan 26, 2015 10:17
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Helical Nightmares posted:As a guy who prefers oWoD corebooks to nWoD across the board (C:tL and P:tC being exceptions) I agree. I prefer the pre-God Machine nWoD dice mechanics. Yeah, the nWoD shines msotly in the supplements and not in the corebooks. The first three had alright-to-terrible corebooks but pretty amazing supplement lines. Requiem needed a few to really start (coterie isn't great, for example), but when it got going, oh man. They seemed to get over it with Promethean, as every core since then as been good-to-amazing. I'm not sure how to feel about nWoD 2.0. I love the changes to the XP system, and the updated Disciplines are pretty great, but there seems to be a lot of changes for sake of changes in the Covenants. I guess we'll see how that works when more books come out.
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Jan 26, 2015 10:55
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I've got an Assamite player who's been subverting young, humanist-minded Camarilla and Anarch vampires into his own private cult by feeding them a heavily-edited, humanist-sounding version of the Path of Blood, explaining that the Camarilla and Sabbat are bad for humanity and that the Assamites want to save humanity from vampire predation. I've never seen this done before and it's pretty entertaining. Pity he's pissed off the Camarilla enough to get a hunt on his head.
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Jan 26, 2015 17:55
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A while ago somebody mentioned that the first core books of the nWoD weren't as great as their supplements; personally I've read C:tL and W:tF and found them both pretty good. Changeling does a way better job at conveying the atmosphere but Werewolf isn't necessarily lacking in that respect. What do you guys think? paradoxGentleman fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Jan 27, 2015 |
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Jan 27, 2015 00:09
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Werewolf's biggest problem is that Werewolves are not good. Like, five types of renown to get gifts that aren't very useful and superforms that aren't especially helpful.
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Jan 27, 2015 00:12
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It's been 5 or 6 years since I played a game of oWoD, and some friends have talked me into directing a campaign of Werewolf:The Apocalypse for them. They are mostly Vampire players and have never played it, except for one of them (who, as far as I know, is a powergamer and a raging rear end in a top hat). I've never been the storyteller of a oWoD game, so I'm a bit nervous about that. We'll be starting with the Rite of Passage campaign this weekend, I hope that if it's fun enough we'll start playing semi-regularly, which would be loving great because I love Werewolf.
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Jan 27, 2015 00:43
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paradoxGentleman posted:A while ago somebody mentioned that the first core books of the nWoD weren't as great as their supplements; personally I've read C:tL and W:tF and found them both pretty good. Changeling does a way better job at conveying the atmosphere but Werewolf isn't necessarily lacking in that respect. Got it in one. Seriously, M:tAw was the best of the Big Three corebooks (in my opinion), and that got bogged down by the Atlantis myth in the front of the book. Which, it should be noted, is not even the main thrust of the gameline. Say what you will about 2nd Edition, at least it has an idea of the right direction to go in when making cores. Blood and Smoke, for example, may be overly casual and in-your-face about things (I got the sense the writers weren't taking themselves too seriously, but that's me), but at least it ain't grimdark, and it makes all clans seem appealing to play without restricting character ideas. Erebro fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Jan 27, 2015 |
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Jan 27, 2015 00:48
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Mors Rattus posted:Werewolf's biggest problem is that Werewolves are not good. Fortunately, we've changed that with 2nd edition.
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Jan 27, 2015 00:49
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Yeah, I'm looking forward to that. (Still think five types of renown is dumb, and renown in general is kind of irritating, but...)
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Jan 27, 2015 01:00
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Werewolf always struck me as the game line aimed at courting all the geeks who love AD&D for the charts. Every form fucks with your math, you have to have X renown to get Y gift but you can also spend Z extra xp to get it, combat is the focus of the game except it isn't except where it is, and so on. Conceptually it's vaguely interesting and I love the Shadow, but my god the mechanics of everything involved with werewolves loving sucks.
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Jan 27, 2015 01:05
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Angry Lobster posted:It's been 5 or 6 years since I played a game of oWoD, and some friends have talked me into directing a campaign of Werewolf:The Apocalypse for them. They are mostly Vampire players and have never played it, except for one of them (who, as far as I know, is a powergamer and a raging rear end in a top hat). I've never been the storyteller of a oWoD game, so I'm a bit nervous about that. We'll be starting with the Rite of Passage campaign this weekend, I hope that if it's fun enough we'll start playing semi-regularly, which would be loving great because I love Werewolf. Rite of Passage is an awesome supplement, though it's age definitely shows in the differences of mechanics and the overall feel of the setting since it's a 1st Edition book. I'd definitely want to convert the NPCs and the setting to fit more with W20. Azaera is a pretty cool villain, I think, and a Wyrm MacGuffin is always a great plot hook. It's one of the few cWoD books I own in hard copy (it alongside Valkenberg Foundation in Werewolf Chronicles Vol.1, Rage Across Appalachia, Tribebook Shadow Lords 1st Edition, and Tribebook: Children of Gaia Revised for W:tA). Tailfnz fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Jan 27, 2015 |
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Jan 27, 2015 01:19
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Erebro posted:Seriously, M:tAw was the best of the Big Three corebooks (in my opinion), and that got bogged down by the Atlantis myth in the front of the book. Which, it should be noted, is not even the main thrust of the gameline. Well... if you arent smart enough to understand it you totally dont deserve to wield reality-bending powers, you pleb  What? Do you think this is the loving free council? Join the Seers.
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Jan 27, 2015 01:52
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DJ Dizzy posted:Well... if you arent smart enough to understand it you totally dont deserve to wield reality-bending powers, you pleb You joke, but i know a guy that won't shut up about how deep oMage is and how you should treat making a character like getting a doctorate in philosophy.
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Jan 27, 2015 04:03
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citybeatnik posted:You joke, but i know a guy that won't shut up about how deep oMage is and how you should treat making a character like getting a doctorate in philosophy. Lots of booze and terrible decisions?
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Jan 27, 2015 05:29
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citybeatnik posted:You joke, but i know a guy that won't shut up about how deep oMage is and how you should treat making a character like getting a doctorate in philosophy. Yelling at everyone that you are right? Anyway, in brief (very brief) I prefer the backstory of oWod Mage because the central theme is a secret war, a major conflict for the hearts and minds and future direction of humanity. I like stories that have high levels of drama, and in the context of a war even the most trivial actions can have dramatic consequences. Let's take this out of Mage for a moment. If you were roleplaying a dramatic battle in the American Civil War or trenches of WWI or as civilians in the Bosnian conflict (see This War of Mine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_War_of_Mine) how many bullets you have left, who you used the last of the morphine on, or if you shoot that kid in a uniform or not (see the movie Fury) have repercussions. Now take all of that high drama and put it in a world where the people you are fighting for (humanity) don't know the war is even going on because it is, by necessity, a secret. You have a interesting dichotomy to explore of self-motivated and battle scarred veterans who are desperately fighting for what they believe for people who don't even know they are being sacrificed for or protected from horrible monsters. It lays an interesting psychological landscape to explore. And of course hypertech cyberpunk vs wizards vs Lovecraftian cultists is just cool. This is the same reason why the group I played with enjoyed Changeling: the Dreaming. The Commoner vs Noble conflict was the main hook. Not everyone cares for this type of game, but we did.
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Jan 27, 2015 05:44
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You do realize that the central conflict of Mage: the Awakening is a secret war for the fate of humanity that mages can't tell anyone about, right
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Jan 27, 2015 05:55
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Crossposting from the GM Advice Thread.Lay on Hands posted:Hey, guys. I'm going to be running a game of Mage: the Awakening for a couple of friends. I have a lot of experience playing the game, but very little experience actually running it. One of my players is my former ST, and the other one is totally new to WoD. Are there any common pitfalls I should look out for in Storytelling Mage and/or any cool tricks which usually work well on new players? Thanks in advance!
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Jan 27, 2015 05:57
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tatankatonk posted:You do realize that the central conflict of Mage: the Awakening is a secret war for the fate of humanity that mages can't tell anyone about, right Also, the secret war in Ascension was won by the Technocracy and the result was that everything carried on as usual.
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Jan 27, 2015 06:06
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Yeah, and in Ascension the big gotcha is that you're ultimately fighting over aesthetics. In Awakening's Ascension War you're actually trying to rewrite the basic nature of reality in some fashion while competing with a dozen other people trying to do the same thing in dramatically different ways.
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Jan 27, 2015 06:09
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tatankatonk posted:You do realize that the central conflict of Mage: the Awakening is a secret war for the fate of humanity that mages can't tell anyone about, right Yes. I've read the corebook and a few (3-5) of the supplements (pre God Machine). Faith (Choiristers, Verbena, etc.) vs Traditional Magic (Hermetics +) vs Technology is a much more compelling conflict for us. The Seers of the Throne vs the Five Orders while having similar elements of freedom of expression vs elitist control, was written in a way that it seemed like a watered down lesser retelling of the Ascension war. Also one thing about the meta plot of oWoD Mage that most people forget or don't recall is that the Nephandi literally have an army trying to break into reality through the Upper Umbra. This is why the Techocrats have things like the Void Engineer warships (K'la machine?), HIT Marks, and Primeum on everything. They lose thousands of resources daily in this eternal war. If they falter, the Nephandi armies can come crashing down the Umbral roads to Earth. I got the impression that the Awakening's counterpart of the Nephandi, the Scelesti, were more just groups of isolated cultist, that while dangerous were not an existential threat. I have a similar impression of the Baali given how both are written. This is the same reason why our group never really enjoyed Hunter: the Reckoning. Why play a group of confused underpowered random humans investigating Joe Bob Vampire who is terrorizing a trailer park, where success or failure means one or two people die or get hurt; when you could be shock troops fighting more serious threats in the Ascension War and be part of an organization that is somewhat in the know? When we wanted to be frail humans, we played Call of Cthulhu. Helical Nightmares fucked around with this message at 06:21 on Jan 27, 2015 |
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Jan 27, 2015 06:15
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Reene posted:Yeah, and in Ascension the big gotcha is that you're ultimately fighting over aesthetics. No the big gotcha is that there's no system for an ascension war, you're not fighting for anything but killing people who disagree with you.
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Jan 27, 2015 06:17
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Helical Nightmares posted:I got the impression that the Awakening's counterpart of the Nephandi, the Scelesti, were more just groups of isolated cultist, that while dangerous were not an existential threat. I have a similar impression of the Baali given how both are written. Awakening have the Aswadim at the Archmaster level, which are exactly as bad as they sound depending on how you feel about what they're doing. Nephandi/Scelesti in Awakening refers to a very large and disparate group of people with a lot of competing motivations and methods of doing things, below that.
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Jan 27, 2015 06:19
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Mexcillent posted:No the big gotcha is that there's no system for an ascension war, you're not fighting for anything but killing people who disagree with you. Pretty much. Edit: or capturing the enemy and "reeducating" them to bolster your own forces.
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Jan 27, 2015 06:22
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Helical Nightmares posted:Yes. I've read the corebook and a few (3-5) of the supplements (pre God Machine). Faith (Choiristers, Verbena, etc.) vs Traditional Magic (Hermetics +) vs Technology is a much more compelling conflict for us. The Seers of the Throne vs the Five Orders while having similar elements of freedom of expression vs elitist control, was written in a way that it seemed like a watered down lesser retelling of the Ascension war. I don't really understand how anyone could consider a conflict where the sides are actually different a watered down retelling of a conflict where the sides are secretly exactly the same. But life is a rich, rich tapestry, I guess.
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Jan 27, 2015 06:23
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Dammit Who? posted:I don't really understand how anyone could consider a conflict where the sides are actually different a watered down retelling of a conflict where the sides are secretly exactly the same. But life is a rich, rich tapestry, I guess. I've tried to explain to so I'll try again. The difference is in the scope of the conflict, the Faith vs Traditional Magic vs Technology which is NOT present in Awakening unless I've missed something (The Seers of the Throne are closer to Hermetics than Technocrats; Division Six is a nod to Technocrats in H:tV, which is not in Mage), and that the Nephandi are presented initially as a loose organization of bogeymen in the 2nd Edition Mage core book but later expanded to an existential threat of a very well organized group of Nihilist/Satanists in Book of Madness (the Upper Umbra threat I mentioned). You haven't provided a detailed counterexample of your points.
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Jan 27, 2015 06:31
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Well, I think one of his bigger points, which you probably don't agree with, is that the Faith/Magic/Tech conflict wasn't really important because it was ultimately arguing over what color paint should be used rather than any substantive change. Which, well, this is certainly how I feel about oMage, because I hate consensual reality.
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Jan 27, 2015 06:34
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