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Hoops posted:I don't know if Sturgeon, Cameron, Miliband or Clegg have ever made any expression of faith like Blair or Brown did, but in practical terms all four present themselves very much as secular politicians. Ed and Nick have both mentioned their atheism in the past. Brown is very much a son-of-the-manse, and Cameron needs at least a sheen of CofE respectability in his job. Neither of those two have the bright-eyed fervour of Blair. I have no idea about Nicola Sturgeon's religious beliefs, and that's a good thing.
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Jan 24, 2015 20:46
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Heh, I do like a bit of debate within a party. Much more interesting than everyone just quietly toeing the line and most entertaining to watch. Scotland is a funny place when it comes to religion, even without the whole sectarian dimension. It wasn't that long ago in the Highlands when never mind marriage equality, shops opening on a Sunday would attract protests from hellfire preachers, not to mention the whole Sunday ferry debacle.
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Jan 24, 2015 20:52
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Hoops posted:Well anecdotally, I've always found Christianity as having a stronger presence in Scotland than it has in England. I don't think it has any bearing on yes or no in the case of independence though. Well, a major plank of the argument of why Scotland should be independent was that it was inherently more leftwing and progressive than England...I don't think anyone is making that argument now, and like the oil price collapse it does chop off one of the legs of the yes case in an eventual indyref 2 campaign. That said, what is Coolihan and the RIC up to now? mediadave fucked around with this message at 12:23 on Jan 25, 2015 |
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Jan 25, 2015 12:19
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mediadave posted:Well, a major plank of the argument of why Scotland should be independent was that it was inherently more leftwing and progressive than England...I don't think anyone is making that argument now, and like the oil price collapse it does chop off one of the legs of the yes case in an eventual indyref 2 campaign. More leftwing and progressive than Westminster, more importantly. Which isn't difficult.
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Jan 25, 2015 12:32
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Angepain posted:More leftwing and progressive than Westminster, more importantly. Which isn't difficult. There aren't many creationists in Westminster...
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Jan 25, 2015 12:33
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mediadave posted:There aren't many creationists in Westminster... There aren't many in Scotland either.
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Jan 25, 2015 12:48
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mediadave posted:Well, a major plank of the argument of why Scotland should be independent was that it was inherently more leftwing and progressive than England...I don't think anyone is making that argument now, and like the oil price collapse it does chop off one of the legs of the yes case in an eventual indyref 2 campaign. No, it's just that nobody can be bothered to respond to the same strawmen from years ago. Nobody said Scots were inherently (or 'genetically', if you like) more left-wing, but Scotland does vote for more left-wing parties, looking at the current GE polling makes this clear.
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Jan 25, 2015 13:09
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Coohoolin posted:John Mason, SNP MSP for Shettleston, filed a motion in favour of creationism. quote:Creationism and Evolution  quote:That the Parliament congratulates South Lanarkshire Council on taking decisive action to prevent the teaching of creationism in schools by introducing new guidance; condemns any promotion of creationism in publicly funded schools, including the reported distribution of creationist books at Kirktonholme Primary School; believes that creationism should not be presented as a scientific theory and viable alternative to the established theory of evolution, and supports the Society of Biology and the Scottish Secular Society position in opposing the teaching of creationism in the classroom.
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Jan 25, 2015 13:11
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Religion (or at least Christianity) is actually on the wane in Scotland: If you consider Catholicism and Protestantism as separate faiths then non-religious folk are the largest "faith" group in the country according to the 2011 census at almost 37% of the population, a full 5% ahead of Protestants. Try telling this to both the Labour MP and MSP for Coatbridge (a town with a higher-than-average Catholic population due to historic immigration from countries such as Ireland and Lithuania) who both voted against equal marriage in their respective parliaments! Even most Catholics in my experience don't actually think equal marriage will herald the end of the world so they're pissing up the wrong tree entirely. The tragilarious part is that Coatbridge's MSP, Elaine Smith, is one of the convenors for what is ostensibly Scottish Labour's socialist wing. Workers of the world, unite... unless you fancy someone of the same sex, in which case we'll burn you at the stake 
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Jan 25, 2015 15:35
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mediadave posted:Well, a major plank of the argument of why Scotland should be independent was that it was inherently more leftwing and progressive than England...I don't think anyone is making that argument now, and like the oil price collapse it does chop off one of the legs of the yes case in an eventual indyref 2 campaign. I can only speak for Aberdeen- a number of the big people in RIC decided their efforts were better served joining parties, mostly SSP, or pushing forward the Common Weal project. All the people I used to see setting up RIC events are now doing Common Weal stuff, possibly because you're more likely to win over your average Aberdonian with less of the colour red and big socialist flourishes. The SSP is going to be putting candidates forward for the GE, if for nothing else then to give people new to politics some experience campaigning.
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Jan 25, 2015 16:29
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Coohoolin posted:I can only speak for Aberdeen- a number of the big people in RIC decided their efforts were better served joining parties, mostly SSP, or pushing forward the Common Weal project. All the people I used to see setting up RIC events are now doing Common Weal stuff, possibly because you're more likely to win over your average Aberdonian with less of the colour red and big socialist flourishes. The SSP is going to be putting candidates forward for the GE, if for nothing else then to give people new to politics some experience campaigning. I don't understand why the RIC is letting such a loving obvious idea pass them by. See Syriza? See how they're a coalition of the left, incorporating the Greek equivalents of a thousand little socialist parties of both red and green shades? That's what we need. The RIC should have declared its establishment of a broad political coalition/party open to all (even members of other parties). It seemed to be the only organisation in the UK that really got the feeling behind Podemos/Syriza et al. There was so much potential there. If they had launched themselves as an open coalition, which anyone standing for election could decide to identify with in addition to their actual party (and maybe have some standing wholly representing the coalition itself), they could have cleaned up. But no, that would be an actual Good Idea.
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Jan 25, 2015 17:46
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ThomasPaine posted:I don't understand why the RIC is letting such a loving obvious idea pass them by. See Syriza? See how they're a coalition of the left, incorporating the Greek equivalents of a thousand little socialist parties of both red and green shades? That's what we need. The RIC should have declared its establishment of a broad political coalition/party open to all (even members of other parties). It seemed to be the only organisation in the UK that really got the feeling behind Podemos/Syriza et al. There was so much potential there. If they had launched themselves as an open coalition, which anyone standing for election could decide to identify with in addition to their actual party (and maybe have some standing wholly representing the coalition itself), they could have cleaned up. But no, that would be an actual Good Idea. They tried something like that only a few months ago, I think it was called the New Left Project, but they were overtaken by events. Everyone joined the SNP or Greens. Also this idea is often suggested (see Left Unity, TUSC etc.) and it has never worked out, at least not yet.
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Jan 25, 2015 20:51
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Alertrelic posted:Also this idea is often suggested (see Left Unity, TUSC etc.) and it has never worked out, at least not yet. Because people don't seem to get that self-identifying as 'left' or 'trade union' puts a lot of generally non-political people off. Podemos realised that they need to lose the whole left/right ideological distinction (superficially at least) and reformulate themselves as 'the common person vs. the establishment'. It worked. They're still left wing as we understand it, they just don't bleat on in the same tired old way the British left does.
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Jan 25, 2015 21:22
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That wouldn't work now because Westminster/The Union have been subbed in for the Establishment and all Scots, including the very rich, have been subbed in as the common person.
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Jan 25, 2015 21:34
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ReV VAdAUL posted:That wouldn't work now because Westminster/The Union have been subbed in for the Establishment and all Scots, including the very rich, have been subbed in as the common person. Well, Westminster/The Union is certainly the establishment. It's not all of it, but it's a clear and visible target. I don't think 'all Scots' have been subbed in as the common person in the context of the RIC in the same way they have been in the SNP narrative. While the SNP is a broad-church 'independence first' deal that incorporates dyed in the wool right-wing nationalists as much as it does anyone else, the RIC was never about that. Independence was the means, not the end, and there was never any implication that they believed Scotland/Scots was/were inherently better than anyone else. A lot of people in the RIC (myself included) would have been staunch unionists if they felt that the union could, or would, change for the better in its current form. National boundaries made a neat foundation for the general motive of dismembering of the UK, but we'd have been happy to see a bunch of English counties come with us if they'd wanted. RIC and SNP are ultimately very different movements that sometimes find it useful to co-operate, so it's unfair to judge one by the conduct of the other. The SNP was (is) a large part of, but not synonymous with, the independence campaign. ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Jan 25, 2015 |
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Jan 25, 2015 21:39
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ThomasPaine posted:Independence was the means, not the end, and there was never any implication that they believed Scotland/Scots was/were inherently better than anyone else. They're ultimately very different movements, albeit with sometimes sympathetic agendas, so it's unfair to judge one by the conduct of the other. The SNP was (is) a large part of, but not synonymous with, the independence campaign.
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Jan 25, 2015 21:47
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The SNP's narrative is currently the dominant one, hence them getting the lions share of newly politically engaged people joining them. The SNP have broadly managed to establish themselves as the guardian of the Scottish people, who in their narrative have been collectively done wrong by Westminster. Therefore a left wing movement would really struggle to use the common people vs the Establishment argument because it has been so effectively co-opted.
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Jan 25, 2015 21:51
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"Get the Red Torries out" stickers have started to make an appearance around Glasgow, and I find the 'anyone who disagreed with us on independence is the enemy" tone a bit unsettling. Its basically what this article critised about the direction the SNP had taken.quote:In recent times the SNP has positioned itself as the natural party of government in Scotland. No harm in that – maybe they are. But, more worryingly, they’ve started to present themselves as the only legitimate government of Scotland.
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Jan 25, 2015 21:55
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The Scottish Left Project have a lot of RIC folk involved, it was Jonathon Shafi's thing. There wasn't really any sort of hint that there was going to be an immediate new thing from them though, as I understood it it was going to be all listening and talking til at least after the GE. Plus a tour of town hall meeting type things this year, which seems to still be a go from glancing at the website. Going out with a couple of pals who will likely know what the craic is with that on Wednesday, so will hear what's what then no doubt.
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Jan 25, 2015 22:09
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There definitely a lot of interest for a Podemos type thing, but a lot of people are also skeptical if it's the right thing to do at the moment and if it will be effective. Personally I share your disappointment, and from what I've seen of RIC up here it's mostly been their failure to abandon the "no leadership/hierarchy" thing they had which has led to an absence of movement. The framework for operating may have created itself quite clearly during the referendum but now you need a clear direction and level of leadership RIC seems unwilling to establish. In Aberdeen, at least, what I saw happen was that because there's no defined leadership or responsible individuals, no one really knows who to talk to for what, and the few people with the most recognizable faces and loudest voices become de facto leaders without much of an actual mandate, and they end up deciding things automatically for everyone else without having a debate about it. Just after the referendum we had a packed town hall meeting, as RIC; loads of people came and were really enthusiastic and some really good ideas were put forward and people volunteered to do stuff and the people "in charge" didn't harness it at all. That was the moment a few of them said "gently caress it" and went off to the SSP, thinking at least there we'll be able to build a functioning structure.
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Jan 25, 2015 22:17
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jre posted:"Get the Red Torries out" stickers have started to make an appearance around Glasgow, and I find the 'anyone who disagreed with us on independence is the enemy" tone a bit unsettling. Its basically what this article critised about the direction the SNP had taken. This is a much better article on the topic of post-indyref political divisions.
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Jan 25, 2015 22:26
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Alertrelic posted:This is a much better article on the topic of post-indyref political divisions. Thats not a good article on anything and the comments are shameful
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Jan 25, 2015 23:35
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Alertrelic posted:This is a much better article on the topic of post-indyref political divisions. Honestly I find the comments there more illuminating than the actual article... Which is a thing that's never been written on the internet before. Also the whole 'Westminster parties' thing is an old tactic of the SNP. It separates us from them and it's a thing that really gets my hackles up. I remember in one of the pre-referendum debates there was the one lady in the Stirling debate at the Albert Hall who kept on shouting over Anne McGuire (so much so that the SNP representative and the Green representative apologised for her behaviour and threatened to leave at one point) who shouted 'You're a Westminster politician, what do you know?' To whit, McGuire (to her credit) calmly replied with 'I'm a Stirling politician that works in Stirling and visits Westminster.' Also while I was out in the run up to the referendum I was once accused of being from Westminster. I asked if that was Westminster by way of Fife in my own, dulcet brogue. Sion fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Jan 26, 2015 |
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Jan 25, 2015 23:57
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Alertrelic posted:This is a much better article on the topic of post-indyref political divisions. No, it's an article that says what you want to hear about post-referendum political divisions.
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Jan 26, 2015 00:16
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Jedit posted:No, it's an article that says what you want to hear about post-referendum political divisions. 
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Jan 26, 2015 00:18
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Do you think it's good article ?
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Jan 26, 2015 00:27
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jre posted:Do you think it's good article ? He hasn't read it.
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Jan 26, 2015 00:32
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jre posted:Do you think it's good article ? I don't know enough about Northern Irish political culture to know whether's it's accurate or not, I have a feeling it may be a bit of a stretch. The fact that Murphy is a sectarian and divisive figure is undoubtable though?
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Jan 26, 2015 00:35
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Coohoolin posted:I don't know enough about Northern Irish political culture to know whether's it's accurate or not, I have a feeling it may be a bit of a stretch. The fact that Murphy is a sectarian and divisive figure is undoubtable though? Sorry, I know that the recent national supply of irony for the next three months was used recently by Peter Molyneux saying that Microsoft might not want to hype up their hologram glasses up that much but- what exactly is ironic about Jedit's post?
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Jan 26, 2015 03:40
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Sion posted:Sorry, I know that the recent national supply of irony for the next three months was used recently by Peter Molyneux saying that Microsoft might not want to hype up their hologram glasses up that much but- what exactly is ironic about Jedit's post? Jedit has a very "personal" interpretation of Scottish politics, mostly involving his insane hate boner for anything SNP related.
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Jan 26, 2015 04:17
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Coohoolin posted:I don't know enough about Northern Irish political culture to know whether's it's accurate or not, I have a feeling it may be a bit of a stretch. The fact that Murphy is a sectarian and divisive figure is undoubtable though? that article does not mention Northern Ireland
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Jan 26, 2015 04:27
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gorki posted:that article does not mention Northern Ireland The lallands peat warrior article, the first one linked, did. It compared the historical differences between fine gael and fianna fail, two ideologically similar parties, with the growing alienation of labour in Scotland due to their alliance with the Tories during the referendum.
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Jan 26, 2015 04:35
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Coohoolin posted:The lallands peat warrior article, the first one linked, did. It compared the historical differences between fine gael and fianna fail, two ideologically similar parties, with the growing alienation of labour in Scotland due to their alliance with the Tories during the referendum. yeah, those parties have no presence in Northern Ireland
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Jan 26, 2015 04:39
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gorki posted:yeah, those parties have no presence in Northern Ireland Ahaha poo poo, proves my first point. Didn't have to be an arse about it. I thought you got the articles mixed up, soz.
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Jan 26, 2015 05:04
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Coohoolin posted:Ahaha poo poo, proves my first point. Didn't have to be an arse about it. I thought you got the articles mixed up, soz. who was being an arse? 
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Jan 26, 2015 07:03
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Coohoolin posted:Jedit has a very "personal" interpretation of Scottish politics, mostly involving his insane hate boner for anything SNP related. I'm well aware that jre's linked article is no less rhetorical than Alertrelic's, thanks. The difference between the two is that I've been telling you literally for years that there is a culture within the SNP of judging Scots who don't want independence to be Scotland's enemies and I've been dismissed, even though Salmond has actually said it outright. Now finally someone on the Yes side of the fence has noticed it. So yes, I am going to think the person who says what I've been saying is more correct - not because he agrees with my opinion, but because he agrees with my facts.
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Jan 26, 2015 12:04
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That Jacobian article's back up? It's a stupid old-fashioned view based on an unreasonably literal take on Santayana. Just because something has similarities to a historical figure doesn't make it the same thing.Hoops posted:It's nice to talk this way and that's what everyone who was deeply involved in the politic groundwork of it all understands. But for your man on the street, none of these sentences were true during the campaign. It's a perspective problem than Yes campaigners will have to approach differently next time. I've never seen anything about an inherent goodness in Scottish blood that makes them more left-wing, except as either a way for unionists to discredit separatism by painting it as blood nationalism or as, strangely enough, a straight-faced claim by Murphy. It's always been about the culture being different. The panelbase poll for wings shows what I mean by that, the people on an individual level hold very similar beliefs but as GE polling and so on show, as a society Scotland is very different to England despite that. If you really believe it's such a widespread thing, then maybe you could source your claims?
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Jan 26, 2015 12:56
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Sion posted:Honestly I find the comments there more illuminating than the actual article... Which is a thing that's never been written on the internet before. Westminster parties/THE UNION is just what they have to keep saying in place of ENGLISH. Everything would be a lot more simple if they could say "The SNP is a Scottish party and Scottish Labour is ENGLISH run and so not legitimate". But they can't. Yet. as a society Scotland is very different to England despite that. Absolute loving bollocks.
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Jan 26, 2015 20:02
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Regarde Aduck posted:Everything would be a lot more simple if they could say "The SNP is a Scottish party and Scottish Labour is ENGLISH run and so not legitimate". But they can't. Yet That's why use 'Westminster' instead. Everyone knows what they mean by it.
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Jan 26, 2015 20:05
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I cringed every time I heard Salmond say "Team Scotland" vs. "Team Westminster" during the campaign. It was such a transparent tactical use of language... The SNP are here to serve "The Scottish People". Oh, you didn't vote yes to independence? Well, you're not part of "The Scottish People" then, are you? Problem solved. It's probably one of the tactics the party teaches along with that one about the pile of pennies where one gets removed every time you say a statement that isn't positive.
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Jan 26, 2015 20:17
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