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I just learned, a week late, that Marcus Borg has gone on to his eternal reward! What a shame - he was always somebody I would loved to have met.
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Jan 27, 2015 09:25
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Powered Descent posted:Speaking of which... do animals have souls? Most denominations would say no, but animals are apparently still self-aware enough to be worthy of kindness. So what exactly does having a soul even do for you, anyway? From what I understand, animals have souls but they are lesser than humans. We show animals kindness even though that are lesser than us because in doing so we emulate God who is kind to humans even though we are lesser than Him. Human souls allow us to commune with God. Without it, things like sacraments and the afterlife would be impossible. In short, I'm not sure if my cat will be hissing at Mary in cat heaven but I hope so
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Jan 27, 2015 10:40
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, but this entire topic is something I was never able to wrap my head around.
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Smoking Crow posted:It isn't because if someone started preaching something not along orthodox teaching, they'd get called in front of their bishop for potentially starting a heresy. Pretty much what I thought. Every once in a while I wish the Bishop would just use his authority to smack people down, but even though I have an orthodox bishop (versus some diocese where they have bishops who agree with or otherwise have views that cause them to accept Broad Churchman when they go into heterodoxy) he's tended to try to exercise restraint simply because my diocese is extremely divided. The amount of politics involved is frustrating, but at the same time there are similar types of political issues that crop up on occasion in the RC/EO churches as well, so it's not like it's entirely a unique problem. It's interesting to note that Broad Churchmanship is pretty much limited to the West, because Broad Churchmanship has a limited missionary background because (possibly because it might be viewed through a lense of colonialism due to its secular outlook), so when you look at the vast majority of Anglicans who are in the Global South, they tend to be of a more evangelical and charismatic tradition, and also tend to be from a more Low Churchmanship. Churchmanship is an interesting concept to explore if only because it requires that you look into the historical context of so many different things that lead to its modern incarnation.
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Jan 27, 2015 15:25
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Smoking Crow posted:From what I understand, animals have souls but they are lesser than humans. We show animals kindness even though that are lesser than us because in doing so we emulate God who is kind to humans even though we are lesser than Him. Human souls allow us to commune with God. Without it, things like sacraments and the afterlife would be impossible. http://www.eyeofthetiber.com/2014/12/12/pope-francis-confirms-cats-still-going-to-hell/
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Jan 27, 2015 15:58
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StashAugustine posted:http://www.eyeofthetiber.com/2014/12/12/pope-francis-confirms-cats-still-going-to-hell/ Is this a Catholic version of The Onion? That's glorious 
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Jan 27, 2015 16:52
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System Metternich posted:Is this a Catholic version of The Onion? That's glorious Yes, and it generates predictably Onion like levels of oblivious responses on Facebook on the occasions where it's passed around in Christian groups I'm a part of. It's wonderful.
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Jan 27, 2015 17:02
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Powered Descent posted:Speaking of which... do animals have souls? Most denominations would say no, but animals are apparently still self-aware enough to be worthy of kindness. So what exactly does having a soul even do for you, anyway? My catholic philosophy teacher said no but since they don't have a rational soul they can be recreated easily
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Jan 27, 2015 17:24
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Powered Descent posted:Speaking of which... do animals have souls? Most denominations would say no, but animals are apparently still self-aware enough to be worthy of kindness. So what exactly does having a soul even do for you, anyway? Aristotle says yes, but vegetative souls and animal souls are different from rational souls or angelic nature. St. Thomas Aquinas follows him. Rational souls include the properties of vegetative and animal souls, but are also immortal. Animals and plants have souls (the principle of life) but they are destroyed when the animal or plant dies.
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Jan 27, 2015 18:38
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PrinceRandom posted:My catholic philosophy teacher said no but since they don't have a rational soul they can be recreated easily
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Jan 27, 2015 18:59
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Keromaru5 posted:Just yesterday I found this article by Andrei Kuraev saying sort of the same thing while defending evolution: that animals have no rational or moral will, and only humans are promised immortality, but if God wants to put animals in the world to come, he will. This is roughly the Evangelical view as well. It's entirely possible that Fido and Chairman Meow are part of God's perfect existence so they may well be waiting for you.
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Jan 27, 2015 19:06
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Worthleast posted:Aristotle says yes, but vegetative souls and animal souls are different from rational souls or angelic nature. St. Thomas Aquinas follows him. Rational souls include the properties of vegetative and animal souls, but are also immortal. Animals and plants have souls (the principle of life) but they are destroyed when the animal or plant dies. Many thanks to all of you for the answers, but it's left me with more questions than I had when I started. So what's the difference between a vegetative soul and an animal soul? Which one do, say, mushrooms have? (They act more like plants but they're more closely related to animals.) Are there bacterial souls and viral souls? And what about the trillions of microbes that are a de-facto part of my body right now? Do they have their own souls, or do they share mine? How about cell lines with a human genome, like HeLa cells? Do they still have a scrap of Henrietta Lacks' soul? I suppose all my questions boil down to this: what exactly IS a soul, anyway, and what does it do?
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Jan 27, 2015 19:59
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Powered Descent posted:So what's the difference between a vegetative soul and an animal soul? Which one do, say, mushrooms have? (They act more like plants but they're more closely related to animals.) Are there bacterial souls and viral souls? And what about the trillions of microbes that are a de-facto part of my body right now? Do they have their own souls, or do they share mine? How about cell lines with a human genome, like HeLa cells? Do they still have a scrap of Henrietta Lacks' soul? Plants, mushrooms, etc, all have vegetative souls, since that's the ability to absorb nutrition and replicate yourself. The basic necessities of life. Things that have appetites and motive power but do not think have an animal soul. They seek what's good for them and reject painful stimuli. If he knew about one-celled organisms, Aristotle would probably say that some of them have animal souls. Human beings have a rational soul--we think. The soul is not a physical inheritance but the system of organization and actions which governs and subtends the living being. HeLa cells wouldn't have Ms. Lacks' soul because they lack the principles that made her her--her thoughts, her appetites, her actions. but they do have a soul, as does everything that lives. The bacteria that are part of your body are not part of your soul, since they aren't (so far as we know) making your decisions and thinking your thoughts. They aren't part of the structuring principle that makes you who you are. (Aristotle knew about parasites but he did not know about gut bacteria or mitochondria, without which you cannot live! Those might be part of your vegetative soul.) Neither is your hand, if it were chopped off--that would no more have a soul than a sculpture of a hand. Everything Aristotle says eventually boils down to a discussion of actions and the ability to take actions. Everything is movement with him. As a living human you do things, and the soul is those actions. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Jan 27, 2015 |
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Jan 27, 2015 20:14
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Powered Descent posted:Many thanks to all of you for the answers, but it's left me with more questions than I had when I started. HEGEL answered well, but I'll add this. The soul is not material. The difference between a pile of carbon, hydrogen, etc. and a living cell made up of those same atoms is the soul. Unless you're Dr. Duncan MacDougall. Then the soul is material and weighs 21 grams. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_(doctor)
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Jan 27, 2015 20:46
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Majorian posted:I just learned, a week late, that Marcus Borg has gone on to his eternal reward! What a shame - he was always somebody I would loved to have met. Aw, that sucks. Still, he had a good run.
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Jan 27, 2015 21:40
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Worthleast posted:HEGEL answered well, but I'll add this. The soul is not material.
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Jan 27, 2015 23:04
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Aristotle got mega inspired proving Parmendies wrong.
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Jan 27, 2015 23:07
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PrinceRandom posted:Aristotle got mega inspired proving Parmendies wrong. All he had to do was move like Diogenes
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Jan 27, 2015 23:16
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Here's an overview of Aristotle's Soul View. http://faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/psyche.htm
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Jan 27, 2015 23:36
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Getting assigned to read Marcus Borg as a college freshman was one of the formative  experiences of my adult intellectual life
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Jan 30, 2015 06:11
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Should Priests have the rigth to strike? Recently there was a massive general strike in my country protesting possible changes to the Labour Law. The union of Priests have traditionally refrained from striking but they removed this rule in 2010. For the first time ever these priests participated in a political strike. They beleive this is justified since it as an act of solidarity on behalf of the weak ( basically if you are a unskilled manual Labour changing the Labour Law is the last thing you want). But not everyone priest agrees With the union and many quit when this rules was changed in 2010. Some wrote very angre letters in the newspapers about how striking goes extremely against the calling of the priesthood(they should always be available). So what you guys think. Is it ok for a priest to strike for any reason?
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Jan 30, 2015 14:58
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Smoking Crow posted:From what I understand, animals have souls but they are lesser than humans. We show animals kindness even though that are lesser than us because in doing so we emulate God who is kind to humans even though we are lesser than Him. Human souls allow us to commune with God. Without it, things like sacraments and the afterlife would be impossible. I was always taught that animals don't have souls, but apparently Palamas said they do, but the soul dies with the body. In any case, no cats in heaven, alleluia.
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Jan 30, 2015 18:35
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Baudolino posted:Should Priests have the rigth to strike? Priests have a union? Which country?
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Jan 30, 2015 18:42
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Baudolino posted:Should Priests have the rigth to strike? On the one hand, I'm all for giving our clergy a decent living for their occupation. On the other hand, the canons explicitly declare the bishop to be the master of his diocese, plus it's kind of lovely to deprive people of the sacraments due to a labor dispute. What if somebody wants to confess on their deathbed during the strike? In any case, the parish usually gives the priest his salary, not the diocese (although the latter often handles pensions and healthcare and other such things).
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Jan 30, 2015 20:50
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Worthleast posted:Priests have a union? Which country? Norway. It`s not really a union in the traditional sense. More like a Society of Priests( presteforeningen).I think it`s more a Place for debate and seminars plus they provide certain services that unions often do. But have never really taken a combative stance against the state Church. Think of it more like a " Priest Club" than a regular union.
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Jan 30, 2015 21:28
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ProperGanderPusher posted:On the one hand, I'm all for giving our clergy a decent living for their occupation. On the other hand, the canons explicitly declare the bishop to be the master of his diocese, plus it's kind of lovely to deprive people of the sacraments due to a labor dispute. What if somebody wants to confess on their deathbed during the strike? In any case, the parish usually gives the priest his salary, not the diocese (although the latter often handles pensions and healthcare and other such things). Ok. But what if you aren`t striking for Your own benefit but strictly to help other workers? In this case the priests arent going on a political strike to get better pay, but to protect unskilled low-pay workers ( like for instance cleaners or Garbage disposal men/persons). Just to be Clear this was just a two hour strike that was meant to make a point . I doubt any sacraments were left unperformed. Tough maybe a deathbed confession went unconfessed, we will never know. You have some good Points tough. Being a priest not like any other job.
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Jan 30, 2015 21:37
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Perhaps it was the priests marching with their faithful in solidarity with them, rather than a refusal to give sacraments. I'm imagining Monks with a vow of poverty striking for more soup or something.
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Jan 30, 2015 22:04
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Worthleast posted:I'm imagining Monks with a vow of poverty striking for more soup or something. "Less food, smaller cells!" "When do we want it?" "Now!"
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Jan 30, 2015 22:41
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ProperGanderPusher posted:On the one hand, I'm all for giving our clergy a decent living for their occupation. On the other hand, the canons explicitly declare the bishop to be the master of his diocese, plus it's kind of lovely to deprive people of the sacraments due to a labor dispute. What if somebody wants to confess on their deathbed during the strike? In any case, the parish usually gives the priest his salary, not the diocese (although the latter often handles pensions and healthcare and other such things). This is the same anti-labor extremist argument trotted out about every profession that might possibly cause harm were they to strike. Other professions it is used against include teachers, law enforcement, emergency and health personnel, air traffic controllers, and I could go on but you probably get the point. That you subscribe to this ideology doesn't change the fact that in the real world there are many ways for workers to strike while still providing "essential" services.
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Jan 31, 2015 01:06
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Lutha Mahtin posted:This is the same anti-labor extremist argument trotted out about every profession that might possibly cause harm were they to strike. Other professions it is used against include teachers, law enforcement, emergency and health personnel, air traffic controllers, and I could go on but you probably get the point. That you subscribe to this ideology doesn't change the fact that in the real world there are many ways for workers to strike while still providing "essential" services. Two problems with comparing the priesthood to any other profession: First of all, souls are on the line. Are you seriously going to refuse to baptize somebody or hear their confession just because the diocese is screwing with your pension? Second of all, being a priest isn't simply a job. You are a servant to your parish and it is your duty to be there for their spiritual needs. Look, I'm as pro-union as the next goon, and it pisses me off when people complain about clergymen getting any kind of compensation at all (I've been flirting with taking up holy orders, so I have a vested interest in things not being too hellish for me), but striking really isn't appropriate when you're running a spiritual hospital. How could a priest "strike" while still providing services? In the RCC, most parishes are completely self-sufficient and don't pay anything to the diocese or to the Vatican (if I'm not mistaken; feel free to correct me). In the Orthodox Church, parishes give 10 percent of their tithing money to the diocese, but the administration is made up of a handful of secretaries, some of whom are volunteers. Most of the money goes directly towards, healthcare, pensions, and airfare for the bishop. If the priests cut those payments off (which they don't have the authority to do anyway), they would be shooting themselves in the feet.
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Jan 31, 2015 03:23
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Isn't a priest strike basically interdict?
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Jan 31, 2015 03:36
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The church I used to be a part of recently formed a union for ministers. It is the second largest church/denomination in Canada after the Catholic Church. http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/01/21/united_church_of_canada_clergy_form_their_own_union.html I would say it is a pretty progressive church overall so it isn't a big surprise.
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Jan 31, 2015 03:37
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Arsenic Lupin posted:I'm pretty sure it's a bona fide heresy, depending on who you ask. So is the any church not in communion with Rome. Or all of Christianity if you're a Muslim. Basically everyone who follows any Christian denomination, or any religion at all, is engaged in practicing a belief that is heretical--depending on who you ask.
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Jan 31, 2015 03:43
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ZombieLenin posted:So is the any church not in communion with Rome. Or all of Christianity if you're a Muslim. Basically everyone who follows any Christian denomination, or any religion at all, is engaged in practicing a belief that is heretical--depending on who you ask. Calm down homie
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Jan 31, 2015 04:20
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ZombieLenin posted:So is the any church not in communion with Rome. Or all of Christianity if you're a Muslim. Basically everyone who follows any Christian denomination, or any religion at all, is engaged in practicing a belief that is heretical--depending on who you ask. Sounds like you are too. 
Slimy Hog fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Jan 31, 2015 |
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Jan 31, 2015 05:01
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StashAugustine posted:Isn't a priest strike basically interdict? That's more like a lockout.
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Jan 31, 2015 05:38
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ZombieLenin posted:So is the any church not in communion with Rome. Or all of Christianity if you're a Muslim. Basically everyone who follows any Christian denomination, or any religion at all, is engaged in practicing a belief that is heretical--depending on who you ask. That would be why I added "depending on who you ask". This would be a case where context genuinely matters; everybody in this thread is heretical according to at least one other person in this thread, and in general we all accept that. In any case, Hegel (currently HEY GAL) explained later that some of the Church Fathers were pro-universalism.
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Jan 31, 2015 18:09
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Hey, I'm pretty sure all Christians in the thread agree about Saint Abba Moses being a cool dude (well, after he converted, at least). That removes a lot of heresy points. Might even save you from an anathema.
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Jan 31, 2015 18:26
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ZombieLenin posted:So is the any church not in communion with Rome. Or all of Christianity if you're a Muslim. Basically everyone who follows any Christian denomination, or any religion at all, is engaged in practicing a belief that is heretical--depending on who you ask. Are you from the 13th century? I don't think anyone's held onto the concept of Muslims as confused Christians for at least a century now. Heresy is a bit more narrow a concept than "other belief systems."
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Jan 31, 2015 18:29
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Numerical Anxiety posted:Are you from the 13th century? I don't think anyone's held onto the concept of Muslims as confused Christians for at least a century now. Heresy is a bit more narrow a concept than "other belief systems." Unfortunately people like that do exist. Apparently one of them does interreligious dialogue for the diocese
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Jan 31, 2015 18:45
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Numerical Anxiety posted:Are you from the 13th century? I don't think anyone's held onto the concept of Muslims as confused Christians for at least a century now. Heresy is a bit more narrow a concept than "other belief systems." I've heard the legend that Mohammed was a cardinal who got passed over for the Papacy, and went off in a huff to do things his way. (I don't believe it)
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Jan 31, 2015 19:40
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