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Looper posted:Vita is better than Dreamcast What's a Vita?
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Jan 29, 2015 03:59
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TenaciousJ posted:What good system has the Power Stone games? PSP. Dreamcast still awesome, regardless. A shame Capcom never got their poo poo together when they had the chance to make a Power Stone 3. Too late now. Capcom's in a rather bleak situation right now. TenaciousJ posted:What's a Vita? 
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Jan 29, 2015 04:00
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Stan Taylor posted:Holy heck I want a PowerStone on WiiU.
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Jan 29, 2015 04:00
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Still better than PS4
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Jan 29, 2015 04:01
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Neddy Seagoon posted:I really love Super Mario Sunshine, but by god is tracking down thirty stars worth of Blue Coins an arduous task. Here's to an HD version where they fix that poo poo. It's really got a lot of obnoxious things and, more than that, it doesn't play to Mario's strengths. Mario Galaxy is honestly the first 3-D Mario that actually does "Mario" right. Mario 64 gets a pass because it's fairly experimental, but Mario games aren't really supposed to be collect-a-thons, and Sunshine forgot that. Plus the jetpack aspect, while fun and interesting (and I'd like to see the concept attempted again), it sort of diminished the value of precision platforming, and teh precision platforming that WAS there was both easily the best part of the game and also the most frustrating. I hate to plug them, but a very good example of everything wrong with Mario Sunshine actually is illustrated in an episode of Game Grumps. I forget which one, but it's where they are attempting the Pachinko machine bonus star, which takes them many, many, many tries and the frustration there is really the strongest memory I have of Sunshine, moreso than any of its strengths. It'd have been fine if it was a Banjo Kazooie game or something like that, but it doesn't really work as a Mario game.
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Jan 29, 2015 04:07
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BottledBodhisvata posted:It's really got a lot of obnoxious things and, more than that, it doesn't play to Mario's strengths. Why can't mario be a collectathon?
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Jan 29, 2015 04:08
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:Still better than PS4 you gonna game on blood borne big guy?
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Jan 29, 2015 04:09
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BottledBodhisvata posted:Mario games aren't really supposed to be collect-a-thons, Why not?
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Jan 29, 2015 04:09
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I actually really miss the open world collectathon Mario style. Galaxy is just point A to point B and while stunning I think the formula is kind of old now.
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Jan 29, 2015 04:09
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BottledBodhisvata posted:
Cool you're wrong and a loving retard.
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Jan 29, 2015 04:10
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Pachinko Machine isn't so bad if you don't rush through it. Just take your time and you'll do ok.
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Jan 29, 2015 04:10
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Also you seem to think the jetpack is some kind of crutch, that's where you're wrong. Sure, it can be used as such when you're still learning the game but go watch some speedruns and tell me that spinjumping and jumping off the side of buildings with a perfect rocket nozzle to skip a fair bit of the stage isn't loving awesome.
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Jan 29, 2015 04:10
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Aurora posted:I actually really miss the open world collectathon Mario style. Galaxy is just point A to point B and while stunning I think the formula is kind of old now. I must prefer point A to point B level design than the Sunshine/64 model. Nothing in either of those games made my jaw drop from a level design standpoint the way Galaxy1+2/3D World did. That being said I still want Sunshine HD because the water and lighting will be gorgeous
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Jan 29, 2015 04:11
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greatn posted:Pachinko Machine isn't so bad if you don't rush through it. Just take your time and you'll do ok. Naw, it's just pretty bad. One way or another it isn't any fun.
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Jan 29, 2015 04:12
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Ruddha posted:you gonna game on blood borne big guy? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW955QUgx88
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Jan 29, 2015 04:13
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Mario can be a collectathon but it's demonstrably better when it isn't. Those games were cute products of their time but in retrospect I don't think they were very good
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Jan 29, 2015 04:20
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Looper posted:Mario can be a collectathon but it's demonstrably better when it isn't. Those games were cute products of their time but in retrospect I don't think they were very good The collectathon levels in 3D World and Galaxy were some of my favorites. Don't confuse what you enjoy more for a fact.
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Jan 29, 2015 04:28
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Diff
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Jan 29, 2015 04:37
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I'm surprised we still haven't seen an indie collectathon revival game, seeing as how people won't shut the gently caress up about how much they want one.
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Jan 29, 2015 04:39
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RyokoTK posted:Diff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ONJfp95yoE
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Jan 29, 2015 04:40
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PaletteSwappedNinja posted:I'm surprised we still haven't seen an indie collectathon revival game, seeing as how people won't shut the gently caress up about how much they want one. There was a kickstarter for one staring a little girl in a top hat or something
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Jan 29, 2015 04:41
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PaletteSwappedNinja posted:I'm surprised we still haven't seen an indie collectathon revival game, seeing as how people won't shut the gently caress up about how much they want one. There are some in production, they're just not out yet. Like A Hat in Time and that one with the dumb name edit: Lobodestroyo?
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Jan 29, 2015 04:41
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PaletteSwappedNinja posted:I'm surprised we still haven't seen an indie collectathon revival game, seeing as how people won't shut the gently caress up about how much they want one. I think 3D platformers are just too expensive for most indie budgets.
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Jan 29, 2015 04:41
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Austrian mook posted:The collectathon levels in 3D World and Galaxy were some of my favorites. Don't confuse what you enjoy more for a fact. 
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Jan 29, 2015 04:42
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Reading this conversation from the end I would never have guessed that the Marios that require you to beat every level while plucking giant coins out of the devil's rear end in a top hat aren't the collectathons and then grab the top of the flag pole aren't the collectathons. Mario 64 is an adventure game. You adventure.
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Jan 29, 2015 04:49
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Diff
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Jan 29, 2015 04:58
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RyokoTK posted:Diff 
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Jan 29, 2015 05:14
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Austrian mook posted:The collectathon levels in 3D World and Galaxy were some of my favorites. Don't confuse what you enjoy more for a fact. For the sake of argument, what was a "collectathon level" in 3D World? Galaxy kind of bridged the gap really nicely in that regard, but it wasn't because you were collecting things, it's because you were exploring. Austrian mook posted:Why can't mario be a collectathon? majormonotone posted:Why not? I suppose, since Mario has been in literally every game genre ever, there could be a collectathon with Mario in it. But what is a Mario game? Like, a proper one? They are 2-D Platformers. The fundamental gameplay of a Mario game is run and jump (and possibly shoot, but usually that's optional). The challenge of the game is evading enemies and jumping to cross gaps and reach platforms. In addition to that, there is an incentive to explore levels, and every other level, if not every level, features something to be discovered if you pause to explore your environment before moving on. This is why coins exist, to give you an incentive to explore; finding coins means more lives and more lives lets you play longer. That's the original Mario game. Mario 64 was a 3-D game, the first 3-D game of its kind IIRC. Nintendo was breaking ground and knew it, so they took advantage of teh 3-D element and created big sprawling fields for Mario to explore. The platforming element was there, but the levels now had a kind of open-world quality, where you could roam around freely to find coins or power-ups or possibly even a different star than the one you are seeking. It's taken the exploration aspect to its furthest possible zenith, and the platforming is still there, although the camera really loving kills the fun out of jumping around in Mario 64, and it relies on slides and slippery surfaces to kill you just as much as it does bottomless pits. But it's really experimental in its era, it is Mario leading the way into the 3-D world and it has some issues as a result. But it felt different from a usual Mario game, and Sunshine did too. Following up Mario 64 with basically a more refined Mario 64 with a Really Big Gimmick (The water gun) wasn't really a smart decision. It feels even less like Mario than Mario 64 did. It has cutscenes and Bowser has a voice and the levels are bigger but less varied and everything's kind of really frustrating. I mean, there are a LOT of just absurdly hard challenges in that game, and death is pretty painful thanks to limited lives. I remember there is an obstacle course in the first world, where you have to cross a poisonous lake? Just getting to that obstacle course takes a long time and is fairly challenging. Once there, you have to actually complete the course, and while there's usually a 1-up available halfway through the world, there's a good chance you will gently caress up really bad and get a game over and have to do the whole drat poison lake all over again, every time. Even a single game over would be disheartening, but these obstacle courses are really unforgiving AND they run contrary to the primary gameplay mechanic that you're taught to use in every other situation. It just doesn't feel like a proper Mario game. It felt off, and I thought that was the fault of the 3-D. But Mario Galaxy proved otherwise. It eliminated the big sprawling ad needlessly difficult to navigate worlds and gave you exactly what Mario does best--running and jumping and platforms and pits and goombas and koopas and it's great. It's exactly what Mario should always have been, and Sunshine remains this weird direction that the series took, for somewhat practical reasons mind. So, when I said Mario can't be a collectacthon, I just meant that Mario isn't really at his best doing a collectathon.
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Jan 29, 2015 05:21
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BottledBodhisvata posted:For the sake of argument, what was a "collectathon level" in 3D World? Galaxy kind of bridged the gap really nicely in that regard, but it wasn't because you were collecting things, it's because you were exploring. There were a few levels where you were running around a larger, open area looking for keys or something. I liked those, just like I liked going around the larger stages like beach bowl in Galaxy and like I liked flying around the rafters of Ricco Harbor.
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Jan 29, 2015 06:04
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Collecting the green stars or stamps in 3D World just adds to the fun. It's a new layer on an age-old formula.
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Jan 29, 2015 06:26
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noirstronaut posted:Collecting the green stars or stamps in 3D World just adds to the fun. It's a new layer on an age-old formula. It's not the same as being able to roam around on your own time. You are very much on the clock in 3D World, and Green Stars are mostly just something to try and grab as you pass them rather than something to be actively hunted down.
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Jan 29, 2015 06:30
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Neddy Seagoon posted:It's not the same as being able to roam around on your own time. You are very much on the clock in 3D World, and Green Stars are mostly just something to try and grab as you pass them rather than something to be actively hunted down. I think they're more often than not one and the same. If you spend your time exploring the levels (in 3D World, at the very least) you'll eventually find all of the stars. Outside of that, your skills will be put to the test as you jump from one platform to a hidden cloud that requires you to have a cat suit or something specific like that. Instead of making the overall game difficult, they've made it harder to get every star or stamp in certain levels.
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Jan 29, 2015 06:33
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noirstronaut posted:I think they're more often than not one and the same. They're really not. Green Stars and the like are rigged as something to be picked up as you head for the end goal. They might be two seconds off a main path, but they're still pointing you back onto it afterwards. With Sunshine, 64 and Galaxy, venturing off the beaten path brings its own reward (hidden Stars/Shines, or even managing to grab a Star you weren't actually after). Especially in the overworld, where you're picking up extra things like hidden upgrades (Fludd nozzles, Hats in 64, etc) or even entrances to hidden levels because you took the time to go rooting round in the back garden on your own volition.
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Jan 29, 2015 06:43
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Neddy Seagoon posted:They're really not. Green Stars and the like are rigged as something to be picked up as you head for the end goal. They might be two seconds off a main path, but they're still pointing you back onto it afterwards. With Sunshine, 64 and Galaxy, venturing off the beaten path brings its own reward (hidden Stars/Shines, or even managing to grab a Star you weren't actually after). Especially in the overworld, where you're picking up extra things like hidden upgrades (Fludd nozzles, Hats in 64, etc) or even entrances to hidden levels because you took the time to go rooting round in the back garden on your own volition. It takes more skill to get certain green stars s what I'm getting at. The comparison to older games being harder and the collection of these stars keeps the same mantra from the old games alive. The reward is a whole other world in 3D World with three of the hardest levels ever seen in a Mario game. There are some easy ones, some built into the level wherein it can't be beaten without the three stars, and some where you could completely pass one and never see it unless you actively try to explore the level. For example, there's a green star atop a bridge that can't even be seen without traveling to the very top of the bridge before knocking it down. Another requires you go in the opposite direction of the rest of the level. The expansive games (64, Sunshine, Galaxy) have their own ways of getting you to explore, but those aren't games made with the same mindset as the traditional sidescrollers. If anything, they manage to keep the same idea of what a Mario 64 games was and not just what a Mario game was.
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Jan 29, 2015 06:52
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BottledBodhisvata posted:So, when I said Mario can't be a collectacthon, I just meant that Mario isn't really at his best doing a collectathon. My response to this is that yeah, 64 and Sunshine feel like different games to the 2D ones, but as a kid I just took it that 2D Mario and 3D Mario were different, and that was okay because they were both really fun in their own ways. Which makes it kind of a shame that in my eyes 3D World/Land feel almost exactly like NSMB but with an extra dimension. Just with more effort put into the music and power-up variety. Motto fucked around with this message at 06:57 on Jan 29, 2015 |
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Jan 29, 2015 06:54
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I really like Sunshine, but it's at the bottom of my list of 3D Mario games, if only because of the lack of variety in the levels. One of my favorite things about Mario games is the variety of settings, going from a water area to a desert to sky to snow, and I'd have enjoyed Sunshine a lot more if they went in that direction. Plus the last level and boss are kinda lame. And the voice acting was fairly terrible (except for the noises Toadsworth made when you jumped on him, those were hysterical), though I wish Nintendo didn't give up on them after Sunshine. Personally, I'd be fine a Mario collect-a-thon, although that's probably because Nintendo 64 is my favorite system and Banjo-Kazooie is one of my favorite games ever. I'd kill for a new Banjo game that isn't a vehicle building game. I didn't enjoy Nuts and Bolts.
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Jan 29, 2015 06:54
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noirstronaut posted:Collecting the green stars or stamps in 3D World just adds to the fun. It's a new layer on an age-old formula. Being encouraged to find three hidden collectibles in each stage isn't something new to Mario. It's the same thing as Dragon Coins and Star Coins.
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Jan 29, 2015 07:00
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Motto posted:Being encouraged to find three hidden collectibles in each stage isn't something new to Mario. It's the same thing as Dragon Coins and Star Coins. I was only using the relation to 3D world and its "collectathon" levels because it was referenced earlier. I don't think 3D games and 2D ones (ironically including 3D Land x World) are really in the same league as far as how collectathon-y it is.
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Jan 29, 2015 07:08
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Mario's biggest strength has always been precision platforming though challenging linear levels, and 3D Mario is no exception. While the open world "collect 6-10 golden McGuffins in a large area" had its time in the sun, it really didn't have any staying power. Rare was the king of that genre, but in the end those games fell out of favor as they were extremely formulaic and attempts to iterate on them made them too big. When making a new game, the temptation is to make the levels bigger and add more of the things people did in previous games, but in collectathons this resulted in tedious hunts for way too many things in levels that were way too big. The only way to make it worse was to force you to do it 4 times on different characters, which Rare pulled off when it more or less killed the genre with DK64 Taking the tight controls and platforming of Mario 64 and applying them to focused linear levels is what made the Galaxy games excellent. While you technically collect 3 stars on each stage, the paths to those stars are incredibly unique, you spend very little time in areas you traversed to get to previous stars, and the level doesn't overstay its welcome by limiting the stars you collect to 3.
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Jan 29, 2015 07:12
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Looper posted:Every good Dreamcast game was released on something else eventually anyway Still waiting for Chu Chu Rocket on anything besides phones/GBA. 
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Jan 29, 2015 07:20
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