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ActusRhesus posted:Can we just agree... Ha! Good luck!
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Jan 29, 2015 16:28
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An Angry Bug posted:Look, I'm sorry it makes you uncomfortable, but the people in those demographics are the one who give the anti-vaccine movement power. They have disproportionate political influence compared to other groups, who are generally marginalized in comparison. Minorities in America have reason to be suspicious of medical institutions due to past exploitation, but they are not as politically powerful due to continued racism against them. Hippies are still treated with enough scorn that they're essentially locked out of the discussion. The suburban white supporters come from both the fringe left and right, but they generally fit the descriptions in this thread, and they're just different flavors of the same dangerous, negligent, selfish idiots. Without their support, the problem would not be nearly as widespread. Don't forget the disproportionate influence of celebrities and TV talk shows that push this crap as well, out influencing even the Medical Industry.
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Jan 29, 2015 16:33
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CommieGIR posted:Don't forget the disproportionate influence of celebrities and TV talk shows that push this crap as well, out influencing even the Medical Industry. And as we all know, Hollywood is overwhelmingly conservative!
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Jan 29, 2015 16:35
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An Angry Bug posted:Look, I'm sorry it makes you uncomfortable, but the people in those demographics are the one who give the anti-vaccine movement power. They have disproportionate political influence compared to other groups, who are generally marginalized in comparison. Minorities in America have reason to be suspicious of medical institutions due to past exploitation, but they are not as politically powerful due to continued racism against them. Hippies are still treated with enough scorn that they're essentially locked out of the discussion. The suburban white supporters come from both the fringe left and right, but they generally fit the descriptions in this thread, and they're just different flavors of the same dangerous, negligent, selfish idiots. Without their support, the problem would not be nearly as widespread. Did you miss the part where I said I live near Seattle? Who should I believe, you or my lying eyes?
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Jan 29, 2015 16:38
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ActusRhesus posted:And as we all know, Hollywood is overwhelmingly conservative! Plenty of woo on the left as well, the anti-vaccine stuff comes from both the right and the left, the left tends to be new age woo, the right tends to be mistrust in the Government/CDC/etc.
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Jan 29, 2015 16:39
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Solkanar512 posted:Did you miss the part where I said I live near Seattle? Who should I believe, you or my lying eyes? Yeah, hate to break it to you but plenty of hippies have grown up and moved to the suburbs. You can easily identify them by the coexist bumper sticker on their hybrid vehicle.
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Jan 29, 2015 16:40
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ActusRhesus posted:Yeah, hate to break it to you but plenty of hippies have grown up and moved to the suburbs. You can easily identify them by the coexist bumper sticker on their hybrid vehicle. Bingo. They have kids, start consulting the University of Google and the anti-vaxx poo poo begins.
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Jan 29, 2015 16:47
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Solkanar512 posted:Bingo. They have kids, start consulting the University of Google and the anti-vaxx poo poo begins. We have an honest to god truther hippie in our music class...she even un-ironically wears tie dye. I am willing to bet her kids are not vaccinated.
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Jan 29, 2015 16:52
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I'm also not sure subdivisions are as homogeneous as said. There's a lot of people that live in just one subdivision, they aren't all going to be of the same political bent any more than a small town might be, or an apartment complex.
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Jan 29, 2015 16:53
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Solkanar512 posted:Did you miss the part where I said I live near Seattle? Who should I believe, you or my lying eyes? It is now your duty to mock them. Don't let us down.
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Jan 29, 2015 16:58
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Lid posted:This article is written in a country that is very very very very pro-vaccination overall with only very few areas, mostly remnants of the hippy age, are against them. The articles mostly are pretty much statin g "laugh at these loving loonies" hence why rather than take the threats seriously its pointed out the only threats came from her end. While I agree with his sentiment, the article will still be read at an international level and the author could have sill written it in such a way that you do not have to have a predisposition against the party involved to recognize that the cancelation is a good thing.
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Jan 29, 2015 16:58
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:I'm also not sure subdivisions are as homogeneous as said. Scarily enough, I don't think it matters, so many people of both political coats have bought into the anti-vaccine hype, so the damage is being done no matter the make up of your neighbors. So many people depend on 'he said/she said' for their medical advice, its mind numbing.
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Jan 29, 2015 17:00
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From a comment on a friend's facebook statussome idiot posted:My point is not to be associated as an anti-vaxxer but rather pro health. There's just not enough research out there with regard to vaccinations. I'm pro-health" This guy isn't even one or the other at this point. It's not a big conspiracy to make money by evil corporations, it's not a big conspiracy by the evil government. It's just..."I don't like it just because." HOW MUCH GODDAMN RESEARCH DO YOU NEED? Give me a loving number, I guarantee you that number was exceeded decades ago. It's just a sort of generalized feeling that they don't like vaccination and they don't know why so they'll set up this moving goalpost that can *never* be satisfied, all the while thinking they're the rational party in the discussion because after all, they're not a crazy antivaxxer - antivaxxers are the crazies. But they aren't one, because they're really just "pro health", not "anti-vax".
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Jan 29, 2015 17:26
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How about y'all just be against babies contracting diseases long declared dead in the water? Quit trying to put political labels on anti-vaxxers. The only labels you should use involve words like 'poo poo head,' 'dumbass,' and 'selfish fuckwad who ignores generations of scientific research in favor of some bitch with a blog.' Who cares whether they lie on the political spectrum. We're talking about defenseless kids getting measles.
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Jan 29, 2015 17:27
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Pasteur is history's greatest monster, vaccination and pasteurized milk.
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Jan 29, 2015 17:29
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Kurtofan posted:Pasteur is history's greatest monster, vaccination and pasteurized milk. I got called a 'Jennerian Fetishist' by an anti-vaccine person at school.
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Jan 29, 2015 17:31
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CommieGIR posted:I got called a 'Jennerian Fetishist' by an anti-vaccine person at school. Everything about it
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Jan 29, 2015 17:34
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DemeaninDemon posted:Who cares whether they lie on the political spectrum. We're talking about defenseless kids getting measles. This should be the focus. But sadly, and not just on this issue, a lot of people are so focused on their ideology being the "right" one that they ignore the idiots in their own camp. Frankly, there's plenty of stupid to go around and whether you're an anti-vaxer because you're a "How dare the government tell me how to raise my kids" conservative, a "but I can heal my family through kombucha and yoga" liberal, or an "OMG THEY PUT MICROCHIPS IN THE VACCINES!" nutjob, or simply an a-political "my child is a unique and special snowflake so I am not injecting him with "poison" self absorbed twat," the bottom line is: You're wrong.
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Jan 29, 2015 17:41
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DemeaninDemon posted:How about y'all just be against babies contracting diseases long declared dead in the water? Quit trying to put political labels on anti-vaxxers. The only labels you should use involve words like 'poo poo head,' 'dumbass,' and 'selfish fuckwad who ignores generations of scientific research in favor of some bitch with a blog.' Christ, I hate this "Oh god I hate conflict so much the truth is in the middle" crap. Do you seriously not understand how differing political worldviews that lead to the same anti-vaxxer bullshit might need to be addressed differently? Do you not understand that if you live in an area that is politically liberal that anti-vaxxers who follow the culture of the political majority now have more influence than they normally would? I'm not saying that this is only a problem on the left, I'm saying it exists on the left and that others on the left need to recognize and deal with this fact. I don't know how much it exists on the right or in what forms because of where I live and the circles I travel in, so I don't say much about it. I'm not crying about hippies because I believe leftist politics are dumb but because I want the anti-vaxxers out. We're all concerned about babies contracting diseases that should have been eradicated already, but this is the form of anti-vaxxer bullshit I get to deal with where I live. Your anti-vaxxers might be different, who knows!
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Jan 29, 2015 17:50
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Solkanar512 posted:Christ, I hate this "Oh god I hate conflict so much the truth is in the middle" crap. Do you seriously not understand how differing political worldviews that lead to the same anti-vaxxer bullshit might need to be addressed differently?
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Jan 29, 2015 17:58
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Huh? How is my position truth is in the middle bullshit? Im not some libertarian douche making cartoons out of construction paper. There's no middle ground. It's either get the vaccination or you suck. No poo poo there's different reasons as to why people are anti vaxx but that doesn't mean combating their stupidity needs to be political. However it's important to identify why they decide to be gently caress wads yes. Then refute their claims with evidence and sound reasoning. Regardless of their starting position. It's not the lefts job to only get the left nor likewise on the right. It's everyone's job to combat scientific ignorance.
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Jan 29, 2015 17:58
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DemeaninDemon posted:How about y'all just be against babies contracting diseases long declared dead in the water? Quit trying to put political labels on anti-vaxxers. The only labels you should use involve words like 'poo poo head,' 'dumbass,' and 'selfish fuckwad who ignores generations of scientific research in favor of some bitch with a blog.' One reason it can be relevant is because identifying the demographics of folks who believe in this, and identifying the vectors by which the antivaxx ideology spreads, is crucial to either inoculating people that are vulnerable to antivaxx rhetoric against those beliefs, and in targeting the people/systems promoting and benefiting from those beliefs. (sorry, the relevant area of persuasion theory is literally called "inoculation theory")
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Jan 29, 2015 18:00
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CommieGIR posted:I got called a 'Jennerian Fetishist' by an anti-vaccine person at school. Smallpox loves you and wants you to be happy and healthy, so that it can be happy too. quote:One reason it can be relevant is because identifying the demographics of folks who believe in this, and identifying the vectors by which the antivaxx ideology spreads, is crucial to either inoculating people that are vulnerable to antivaxx rhetoric against those beliefs, and in targeting the people/systems promoting and benefiting from those beliefs. Yeah but inoculations are dangerous, developing a vaccine theory would be much more effective. Laphroaig fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Jan 29, 2015 |
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Jan 29, 2015 18:32
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It's weird that people live in a world where most forms of life exist by killing and eating other forms of life, and then believe that diseases care about the things they kill and eat (or kill and hijack the cells of for reproductive purposes in the case of viruses)
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Jan 29, 2015 18:36
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twodot posted:Wait a minute here. Do political world views ever lead to someone being anti-vaccine? Anti-vaccine isn't a political stance, it's a science stance. I assume when we talk about anti-vaccine people we are talking about people who think vaccines are ineffective or dangerous, not people who think children shouldn't take Gardasil to stop them from having sex. Anti-corporate views can lead to somebody being anti-vaccine. In that case it's the "CORPORATIONS ARE MAKING YOU PAY THEM TO INJECT POISON INTO YOUR BABIES!!!!!" nonsense. Extreme environmentalist attitudes can as well. These are the people obsessed with doing everything the most natural way possible and consequences be damned. Lolbertarian views can also lead to it in a roundabout way because of the whole "well you can't force me to do things so nyah" crap. In that case it's a matter of "well I can believe and do whatever I want" leading to people choosing to believe and do really loving stupid things.
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Jan 29, 2015 18:37
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Anti-corporate views can lead to somebody being anti-vaccine. In that case it's the "CORPORATIONS ARE MAKING YOU PAY THEM TO INJECT POISON INTO YOUR BABIES!!!!!" nonsense. quote:Lolbertarian views can also lead to it in a roundabout way because of the whole "well you can't force me to do things so nyah" crap. In that case it's a matter of "well I can believe and do whatever I want" leading to people choosing to believe and do really loving stupid things. edit: If it's not clear here, I think that to qualify as anti-vaccine, you need to also be anti-status quo. twodot fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Jan 29, 2015 |
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Jan 29, 2015 18:40
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ActusRhesus posted:Can we just agree that there are anti-vax nutjobs across the political spectrum and stop treating this as an us vs. them political superiority thing? Nah. Poor reasoning leads to incorrect beliefs. Conservatism, authoritarianism and anti-scientific worldviews are connected, even if there are outliers. Anti-vaxxers may identify as liberals but they have the same unreasoning fear of the other that leads to the Tea Party.
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Jan 29, 2015 18:44
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OwlFancier posted:It's weird that people live in a world where most forms of life exist by killing and eating other forms of life, and then believe that diseases care about the things they kill and eat (or kill and hijack the cells of for reproductive purposes in the case of viruses) SedanChair posted:Nah. Poor reasoning leads to incorrect beliefs. Conservatism, authoritarianism and anti-scientific worldviews are connected, even if there are outliers. Anti-vaxxers may identify as liberals but they have the same unreasoning fear of the other that leads to the Tea Party. Agreed. Fear mixed with "Nature Knows Best" is basically the issue. Also a strange unwillingness to adopt scientific positivism - that Science is a tool that can create good outcomes or bad outcomes. Instead we have like the following bad ad-hoc argument: Science is in conflict with Nature Science causes problems Science makes Chemicals which are dangerous to children Science is dangerous to children Nature knows better than Science Natural is always better Natural is always good Organic products are always good Basically the 1980s and 90s media were so successful in convincing people that their children were in danger that, unsurprisingly, they grew up into adults that believed it. Better Living Through Chemistry and the blind faith in science of the 1950s is seen as quaint and dangerous. Now you are supposed to question Science. Divorced from any dangers of the natural world, the modern man instead romanticizes it and yearns for a halcyon era that never existed. Anti-Vaxx is just another cultural expression of that movement. And its pretty much a direct consequence of three decades of scare-mongering and anti-science rhetoric. For the right, it has given us climate change denialism, for the left, it has given us the organic movement and the anti-vaccination movement.
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Jan 29, 2015 18:44
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I suppose there are people in the world who think that bears are friendly and it's OK to try to pet them. Can we round up all the touchy feely nature people and dump them in the middle of nowhere for a few days, see how they get on with nature?
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Jan 29, 2015 18:47
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OwlFancier posted:I suppose there are people in the world who think that bears are friendly and it's OK to try to pet them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grizzly_Man Herzog also narrates and offers his own interpretations of the events. Herzog concludes that Treadwell had a sentimental view of nature, which Herzog instead sees as cold and harsh, and that this sentimentality, and inability to recognize the danger he was in, led to his death. Roger Ebert posted:'I will protect these bears with my last breath', Treadwell says. After he and Amie become the first and only people to be killed by bears in the park, the bear that is guilty is shot dead. Treadwell's watch, still ticking, is found on his severed arm. I have a certain admiration for his courage, recklessness, idealism, whatever you want to call it, but here is a man who managed to get himself and his girlfriend eaten, and you know what? He deserves Werner Herzog." Laphroaig fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Jan 29, 2015 |
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Jan 29, 2015 18:51
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A lot of people also have a very poor understanding of statistics and the methods used to collect and evaluate epidemiology. Like, a lot of people honestly believe the Amish don't get cancer because they can't quite wrap their heads around the fact that you have to go to a hospital to get diagnosed and become a statistic.
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Jan 29, 2015 18:51
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Kurtofan posted:Pasteur is history's greatest monster, vaccination and pasteurized milk. Don't get us started down the path of raw milk.
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Jan 29, 2015 18:55
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Eej posted:Don't get us started down the path of raw milk. Mmmmm, e. coli
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Jan 29, 2015 18:57
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Eej posted:Don't get us started down the path of raw milk. I actually tried that once and got rather bad stomachache for my trouble. It tastes nice but I'll take pasteurization over being glued to the shitter for a day. Though peculiarly my girlfriend can drink it no problem.
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Jan 29, 2015 18:59
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OwlFancier posted:I actually tried that once and got rather bad stomachache for my trouble. You can be my huckleberry by getting TB!
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Jan 29, 2015 19:05
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OwlFancier posted:It tastes nice but I'll take pasteurization over being glued to the shitter for a day. Though peculiarly my girlfriend can drink it no problem. She shouldn't give money to the people that sell it.
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Jan 29, 2015 19:09
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Discendo Vox posted:She shouldn't give money to the people that sell it. We had to go to a farm and they only serve it on-site. It wasn't claiming to be good for you, in fact it came with a warning that you should avoid drinking it if you're a young child, pregnant, or suffering from any health problems. I think it was mostly sold as a novelty and I like milk normally so I thought I'd try it. Are there people who think it's good for you or something?
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Jan 29, 2015 19:12
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OwlFancier posted:Are there people who think it's good for you or something? That's complicated, and I need to get to the office. The short version is that a sizeable contingent of dupes (who are the real target demographic of the people at the farm you visited, who should not have been selling it) who believe that pasteurization is a Big Dairy conspiracy to keep us from getting tastier, healthier milk! In reality, raw milk (including stuff sold on-site) kills at least a couple people in the US each year. If you're using conventional pasteurization, the process does reduce the amount of some of the vitamins in milk, but not to a significant degree. Nowadays there are other pasteurization methods that don't even have that drawback.
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Jan 29, 2015 19:17
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OwlFancier posted:Are there people who think it's good for you or something? Yes, although i usually hear more often that it is not bad for you.
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Jan 29, 2015 19:18
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OwlFancier posted:We had to go to a farm and they only serve it on-site. It wasn't claiming to be good for you, in fact it came with a warning that you should avoid drinking it if you're a young child, pregnant, or suffering from any health problems. I think it was mostly sold as a novelty and I like milk normally so I thought I'd try it. The FDA requires that warning IIRC, otherwise its a violation to sell raw milk. 
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Jan 29, 2015 19:19
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