|
I can understand it, but it is just pissing horrible to see this kind of thing. I mean committing someone falsely to a mental health area because they have evidence you are a poo poo? That is a devastatingly terrible case of "I do my job well dammit!"
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 01:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 09:13 |
|
|
Anyone seen this one yet? http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/jesse-hagopian-seattle-police-pepper-spray Seems like the only one being threatening and making a scene is the female officer wildly spraying pepper spray at everyone. Does she think it's just like spraying a cat with a water bottle?
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 01:51
|
|
|
bitcoin bastard posted:What's the alternative? A gigantic circle jerk about how cops are really really mean and bad? A discussion about actual police reform? I know it sounds crazy and all.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 01:51
|
|
|
Zeitgueist posted:A discussion about actual police reform? It got lost on the last page, but I quoted your last post as an example of actual good discourse.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 01:52
|
|
|
>takes a a half step forwards "Come on you said you'd meet me halfway!"
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 01:52
|
|
|
Vahakyla posted:This is also true. Imagine how many other professions have people willing to snitch on their buddies or question their work ethics right away? Not many? Yeah, because people want to mind their own poo poo and hold on to their own job and pay their mortgage. For a chef, it shows as not giving a poo poo when the waiter drops the food and puts it back on plate. For a police officer, well, you know. Equal amount of incompetence and malice feel way different when the other one is a baton in your face and the other is a car registration done wrong. Except when a restaurant poisons too many people it's not all that often that a friend of theirs whose job often depends on the chefs cooperation and goodwill comes to do the health inspection and sometimes that inspection actually results in a closing. There's a lot more problems than "cops protect cops" when it comes to reform. There is no downplayed equivalent in your analogy to someone watching their husband or father get choked to death in broad daylight, and then watching an entire arm of the local gov't gear up to defend the guy who did it, and smear anyone who questions this process. That's not an outsized effect just from the police being in a higher stakes job. And maybe when the result of a gently caress up is a citizens rights being infringed or getting shot to death we should hold them to a higher standard, and pay them more, than the guy running the fryer at shake n go. Intel&Sebastian fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Jan 30, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 01:54
|
|
|
bitcoin bastard posted:What's the alternative? A gigantic circle jerk about how cops are really really mean and bad? Maybe active ideas about reform and the necessary duties of what police should be. I was trying to do that a few pages back, but I am not too sure people want to discuss it. I mean what purpose do the police serve, what is the necessary function of a police department? Not in terms of getting rid of them, but what should the main objective for a police officer be? Maintain order or Maintain quiet? Intel&Sebastian posted:Except when a restaurant poisons too many people it's not all that often that a friend of theirs whose job often depends on the chefs cooperation and goodwill comes to do the health inspection and sometimes that inspection actually results in a closing. There's a lot more problems than "cops protect cops" when it comes to reform. Also this.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 01:58
|
|
|
Intel&Sebastian posted:Except when a restaurant poisons too many people it's not all that often that a friend of theirs whose job often depends on the chefs cooperation and goodwill comes to do the health inspection and sometimes that inspection actually results in a closing. There's a lot more problems than "cops protect cops" when it comes to reform. I agree 100% on this. The police have extra rights/freedoms/whatever to do their job; the police absolutely should be held to a higher standard, and intentionally breaking the trust they are given should be punished more severely than a normal citizen doing the same thing. At the same time, we have to accept the fact that we have put police officers into a position where they are expected to make split second life and death decisions, and accept that some mistakes are inevitable under those conditions. I think that something like the Terence Walker shooting is unfortunate but unavoidable on a long enough time line, and we shouldn't skip straight to crucifying the officer in a situation like that.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 02:00
|
|
|
Intel&Sebastian posted:Except when a restaurant poisons too many people it's not all that often that a friend of theirs whose job often depends on the chefs cooperation and goodwill comes to do the health inspection and sometimes that inspection actually results in a closing. There's a lot more problems than "cops protect cops" when it comes to reform. How do you get me disagreeing with you on this in anyway? Police Departments get closed. If you seriously on the other hand that restaurant inspections work well, then... I got news for you. There are countries where police are miles better, and coincidentally restaurant inspections, government and other poo poo work better, too. I wonder if there is a larger picture to these issues? It's not inherently in policing itself. One more time, this is not to loving excuse or justify this poo poo. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 02:03 on Jan 30, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 02:00
|
|
|
Vahakyla posted:How do you get me disagreeing with you on this in anyway? I don't think you're disagreeing I think you're downplaying the situation to a point where it's unrecognizable by saying police gently caress ups are like restaurant gently caress ups, just more visible. They are not at all equivalent no matter what happens to some police departments and some restaurants.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 02:02
|
|
|
bitcoin bastard posted:It got lost on the last page, but I quoted your last post as an example of actual good discourse. Much appreciated, but I also tend to agree with Woozy that the thread gets a bit derailed into #NotAllCops discussion whenever we try to get into cultural/institutional problems. I feel like police forces have fallen into a really sticky "us v them" mindset that makes discussion of reform very very hard. I mean after the Dorner thing, people got really upset at the "you know what, that guy has a point even if killing cops outright is a wrong way to go about making that point" posts that people were making, but investigations released last year pretty much supported the idea that the dude was crazy, but not necessarily wrong. I saw basically zero police step up and say anything about this criticisms because everyone knows that criticisms of cops can get you in trouble. There's many examples of whistle-blowing cops being either verbally or physically assaulted.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 02:02
|
|
|
bitcoin bastard posted:What's the alternative? A gigantic circle jerk about how cops are really really mean and bad? The circle jerk you are talking about has produced over five years of extremely detailed threads chronicling police brutality on a massive scale. Literally thousands of pages with stories that are personal, local, and even national headlines. And yet somehow we still manage to attract a new crop of morons going "come on guys tone it down a bit!" in every incarnation.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 02:05
|
|
|
Intel&Sebastian posted:I don't think you're disagreeing I think you're downplaying the situation to a point where it's unrecognizable by saying police gently caress ups are like restaurant gently caress ups, just more visible. They are not at all equivalent no matter what happens to some police departments and some restaurants. May I approach this from another angle? Do you think that most people in Child Protective Services are different from people in the state DMV? I don't think so. Yet, the CPS can potentially gently caress all over people if so desires, cover up abuse and block inspections. I don't believe that Police abuse in the United States is caused by inherent nature of policing, but rather the larger picture of the United States in its intolerance for greyness, obsession with money, religious dogma and greed, racism, worship of the rich, combined with inbuilt conservatism and nutjobbery. It shows in various shades in many professions, and manifests horribly in some. Oversight that aims to reduce abuse and corruption is a literal curse word in this country. "Justice" is just an extension of religious bloodlust and doesn't even most of the time pretend to reduce crime or to heal societal issues. Having "governmmemtntnthhh oversiiiighht" is something that makes every hick to every dude with a daddy's beamer to go defensive. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Jan 30, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 02:06
|
|
|
Zeitgueist posted:There's many examples of whistle-blowing cops being either verbally or physically assaulted. Is Schoolcrafted a verb? I feel like it should be.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 02:08
|
|
|
xergm posted:Anyone seen this one yet? The video here illustrates what a lot of posters have been talking about. There's a lunatic spraying toxic chemicals all over the place and the other officer in the shot has this awkward "...Uhmm?" look on his face like he hasn't got a clue what to do. None of the other cops are reacting badly but they're not stopping her either.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 02:13
|
|
|
Murderion posted:The video here illustrates what a lot of posters have been talking about. There's a lunatic spraying toxic chemicals all over the place and the other officer in the shot has this awkward "...Uhmm?" look on his face like he hasn't got a clue what to do. None of the other cops are reacting badly but they're not stopping her either. Because he doesn't have a clue on what to do.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 02:14
|
|
|
Vahakyla posted:May I approach this from another angle? Do you think that most people in Child Protective Services are different from people in the state DMV? I don't think so. Yet, the CPS can potentially gently caress all over people if so desires, cover up abuse and block inspections. Lazy CPS does have the potential to hurt people in similiar outsized ways as a lazy police officer...but when they get caught there's no natural apparatus unique to their job that springs up protecting a bad CPS employee, or a culture that says CPS EMPLOYEES UBER ALLES when they get caught. That's the major problem. The rest I'm kind of still parsing and I gotta run in a min so I apologize.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 02:16
|
|
|
Vahakyla posted:This kinda bullshit is what drags this thread down. Then cry to the mods to do something about it you big loving baby
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 02:20
|
|
|
That's partly due to police officers belonging to the "hero club" with firefighters and military where criticism is met with hostility just not from the inside, but from the outside when everyone scurries to wank off the agency in question. Yet again something that is way off bounds in the United States when compared to other civilized countries. Religion or the false hypocrisy of it at play, again, in feeding the image of godly men and evil men. Just look at Chris Kyle. People are lining by the thousands to suck off a dead dude's dick who admitted to looting buildings and apartments of civilians and who stated himself to enjoy killing and wanted to kill more. A "respectable" news organization advocates the dick sucking. I could never see poo poo like that flying in other western countries. Policing is not hosed. This country is. The solution naturally is to establish better oversight and accountability in all professions, with policing being up there. But societal change is also needed for a faster pace to succeed, because most of the people in this country are hostile to change. So yeah, I disagree that policing inherently is the issue. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Jan 30, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 02:21
|
|
|
Woozy posted:All the "reformers" who've shown up to the CotB thread over the years have been rank apologists who refuse to move forward with any discussion of solutions until they can be certain that every single post on every page is punctuated with "of course these are only a few bad apples mind you so please show proper deference to our boys in blue out there every day protecting the L A W A B I D I N G C I T I Z E N from criminal scum." It's almost like reformist talk is actually a rhetorical tactic meant to stall the thread until everyone is forced to agree to disagree with the end goal of arriving at no conclusions at all! As the poster of the CotB series of threads, you're wrong
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 02:26
|
|
|
In my experience there's two distinct camps of people who roll their eyes or get upset at any police criticism or calls for reform/oversight. First, there's the ignorant and sheltered. Generally white suburbanites who have never had a bad run in with the police not known anyone who has. "If the police were so out of control why haven't I seen it?". Their few interactions with the police have been positive, they may not know anyone brutalized by the police but they very well may have friends or family who are cops. These people are just ignorant and can be swayed with enough factual information but always desperately look for any excuse that it's "just some bad apples". The second group are not ignorant, they know exactly how things are and they like it. They're generally racist, classist, and have totally dehumanized "criminals". A bunch of rioting ferals got pepper sprayed? Spray them with a machine gun next time and save my tax dollars from putting them up in luxurious prisons liberals make me pay taxes for. Who cares if some of them are minors, those types mature fast and they'll become hard core criminals anyways. Fight them over there (in their ghetto) so we don't have to fight them over here (in my suburb). They don't even care if innocents get caught up in the war on crime, they should have know better, they chose to live in that neighbourhood, they chose to associate with those people. It's all a big scary nebulous "them" and the police can never be too brutal.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 02:26
|
|
|
Spoke Lee posted:Actus, I was wondering what you thought about the Mike Brown grand jury looking back. After every questionable move they made you didn't seem to want to call the proceedings outright compromised. What about now taking everything into account, what are your views on how everything went down? same as they were the last several times I've posted. I don't think there was willful misconduct, but I think there were a lot of errors that undermine confidence in the process and it's a textbook example of why DAs should be appointed based on their competence, not elected. But I tend to adopt the "never assume malice when incompetence is equally likely" approach to life. More people are stupid than evil.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 02:36
|
|
|
Nostalgia4Infinity posted:>takes a a half step forwards I think we all know better than to advance on a police officer.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 03:01
|
|
|
Vahakyla posted:Policing is not hosed. This country is. This is a pointless differentiation. Yes, many of the USA's institutions are hosed, and the country is hosed. Some aspects of that are independent, some are not.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 03:07
|
|
|
xergm posted:Anyone seen this one yet? What is she even responding to? She completely loses it because people were briefly within 10 feet of her.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 03:12
|
|
|
more friedman units posted:What is she even responding to? She completely loses it because people were briefly within 10 feet of her. Honestly, I can't wait for some sort of official press release from the Seattle PD explaining just why she felt the need to use it. Maybe she thought the guy on the phone was calling in an IED? That older women was probably an imminent threat too.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 03:38
|
|
|
ActusRhesus posted:same as they were the last several times I've posted. I don't think there was willful misconduct, but I think there were a lot of errors that undermine confidence in the process and it's a textbook example of why DAs should be appointed based on their competence, not elected. I just can't grasp how you can believe that given the smarmy press conference, knowingly allowing false testimony, focus on marijuana, the jury instructions, and bringing in a character witness for Wilson. With the prosecutor's history taken with this, it seems incompetence is not equally likely.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 03:44
|
|
|
bitcoin bastard posted:Is Schoolcrafted a verb? I feel like it should be. Wikipedia posted:The hospital's report states: This is some loving twilight zone poo poo right here. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 04:03
|
|
|
So if the problem is a combination of a small population of psychopaths and a large population being dragged along by them, how do you fix that? How do you screen out the psychos? How do you convince police departments to screen out the psychos? And, perhaps more importantly, how do you screen out the people who can be dragged along?
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 06:11
|
|
|
Spoke Lee posted:I just can't grasp how you can believe that given the smarmy press conference, knowingly allowing false testimony, focus on marijuana, the jury instructions, and bringing in a character witness for Wilson. With the prosecutor's history taken with this, it seems incompetence is not equally likely. We already have a possibility of people on the forums trying to go internet detective to be vindictive dicks. It's pretty easy to see where the situation ends up. Pope Guilty posted:So if the problem is a combination of a small population of psychopaths and a large population being dragged along by them, how do you fix that? How do you screen out the psychos? How do you convince police departments to screen out the psychos? And, perhaps more importantly, how do you screen out the people who can be dragged along?
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 06:34
|
|
|
As I was suggesting, maybe fracturing the departments to allow for better oversight and a less "us VS them" attitude because "those bastards over in traffic get all the easy jobs" it allows the various military grade wank fests around police departments to become confussed and slightly divided thus making more oversight easier. I agree that a lot of the problems are inherent in the American political system, but wide scale change is still something that should be attempted and encouraged.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 07:43
|
|
|
Spoke Lee posted:I just can't grasp how you can believe that given the smarmy press conference, knowingly allowing false testimony, focus on marijuana, the jury instructions, and bringing in a character witness for Wilson. With the prosecutor's history taken with this, it seems incompetence is not equally likely. Easy. I just assume that people can be lovely lawyers and not necessarily evil. It's the same reason that when defense counsel says something that's not true I assume they did bad research rather than assuming they are willfully trying to mislead the court.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 13:07
|
|
|
Intel&Sebastian posted:Lazy CPS does have the potential to hurt people in similiar outsized ways as a lazy police officer...but when they get caught there's no natural apparatus unique to their job that springs up protecting a bad CPS employee, or a culture that says CPS EMPLOYEES UBER ALLES when they get caught. That's the major problem. And CPS workers generally have a college degree with requirements for a Master's degree to advance. And have an average salary of maybe $35,000, around $22,000 less than the average police salary. And are not allowed to carry weapons. And have to drive their own cars for work. And are mostly women who walk into potentially dangerous situations on a daily basis. And have to file documentation of every single professional conversation and phone call that they make.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 14:10
|
|
|
Vahakyla posted:The solution naturally is to establish better oversight and accountability in all professions, with policing being up there. But societal change is also needed for a faster pace to succeed, because most of the people in this country are hostile to change. This is like showing up to a #BlackLivesMatter rally with an #AllLivesMatter banner or showing up to a conference about heart disease and saying "BUT ALL DISEASES!" People are extra concerned about cops because a bad cop can kill you or ruin your life and then use a variety of systems and unions to protect themselves. A bad DMV employee can, what, be a dick to you verbally and make you wait in line a lot or refuse to give you a registration based on some tiny technicality? If I could make cops 50% better and the DMV 50% worse in exchange, I'd do it in a heartbeat, despite how awful a lot of DMVs are. It doesn't even compare. And if you tell people cops can't be fixed until the whole of society is fixed, they kinda go 
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 15:33
|
|
|
So the NYPD is forming a new Anti-terrorism squad that will also be used to suppress protests. http://gothamist.com/2015/01/29/nypd_machine_guns.php quote:This new squad will be used to investigate and combat terrorist plots, lone wolf terrorists, and... protests. "It is designed for dealing with events like our recent protests, or incidents like Mumbai or what just happened in Paris," Bratton said, Because these two missions are exactly the same so it only makes sense right?
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 16:26
|
|
|
Bratton is apparently on a mission to troll the city of New York. The headlines on this story read like satire.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 17:55
|
|
|
SWAT isn't armed heavily enough. We need SWAT with full auto shotguns and level 4J body armor and jetpacks. It's like an onion article.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 18:05
|
|
|
Pryor on Fire posted:SWAT isn't armed heavily enough. We need SWAT with full auto shotguns and level 4J body armor and jetpacks. It's like an onion article. He's using the cases of Sydney (a hostage taking crisis) and Charlie Hebdo/Paris (a pair of hit and run attacks followed by hostage takings). Armed units in both those cities had no trouble taking down the offenders once they had them cornered and were able to minimize civilian casualties; heavier ordnance wouldn't have helped due to the hostage situations. Terror attacks in western nations have always focused on quick, shocking attacks, with the perpetrators not being well trained or equipped enough to withstand serious armed resistance. There's no way this unit will accomplish anything productive except in the event of a full scale ISIS invasion of NYC. Pointing machine guns at protesters only makes them madder. Murderion fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Jan 30, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 18:31
|
|
|
KomradeX posted:So the NYPD is forming a new Anti-terrorism squad that will also be used to suppress protests. The gently caress 
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 18:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 09:13 |
|
|
This morning I heard an interview on KUOW with William Wingate, the black 70-year-old veteran and former Metro driver who was arrested by an insane racist Seattle policewoman. He said that when his kids used to talk about the need for police reform, he used to speak up on behalf of the police. Now, he says he keeps quiet.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2015 18:39
|
|