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OwlFancier posted:Are there people who think it's good for you or something? You do realize you asked this in the same thread discussing anti-vaccinations right?
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Jan 29, 2015 19:21
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We're UK based so I don't know if it's a thing over here as much as in the US. Weird that people would think pasteurization is bad, I mean, presumably they would also think boiling water is bad because it kills the natural goodness in it or something. Genocide Tendency posted:You do realize you asked this in the same thread discussing anti-vaccinations right? Well yeah but vaccination theory is at least slightly counter intuitive, whereas boiling the hell out of something to clean it is about as old fashioned as you can get. I don't know anybody who thinks that cooking your drat food properly is a bad idea. Christ if your reject any more fundamental scientific advances you'd be living in a cave and clubbing the fire-using tribe over the head for playing god. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Jan 29, 2015 |
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Jan 29, 2015 19:23
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The most conservative person I have ever known is into the whole raw milk thing, hates that the government regulates it, and wants to actually buy her own cows to get it (she owns a payday loan company, so she can afford that). Even she admits it's because it tastes better.
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Jan 29, 2015 19:25
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OwlFancier posted:Are there people who think it's good for you or something? Yeah, they're basically crazy. I mean, I don't disagree that something like raw milk tastes different. But I put drinking raw milk up there with eating poisonous blowfish - the bacteria and other things present in the raw milk that are giving it a different flavor profile is much like the very small amount of toxin in blowfish. This is mainly for raw milk cheeses - a lot of traditional cheeses that are aged develop different flavors if they are pasteurized or not. Generally this is a high end market, so the conditions are kept very sanitary, as a rich white person who gets sick from eating your raw milk cheese will sue you for it. Still, according to the CDC there have been 27 outbreaks traced back to raw milk cheeses between 1993 and 2006. That is very dangerous. Consider this: http://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/rawmilk/nonpasteurized-outbreaks.html posted:During 1993–2006, 121 outbreaks reported to CDC were caused by dairy products where the investigators could determine if the dairy product was pasteurized or unpasteurized (raw). These outbreaks included 4,413 illnesses, 239 hospitalizations, and 3 deaths. OwlFancier posted:We're UK based boiling the hell out of something to clean it is about as old fashioned as you can get. Yeah the fine UK culinary traditions of "boiling the hell out of something" give you a different cultural outlook I suspect Laphroaig fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Jan 29, 2015 |
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Jan 29, 2015 19:26
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Elderbean posted:A lot of people also have a very poor understanding of statistics and the methods used to collect and evaluate epidemiology. Like, a lot of people honestly believe the Amish don't get cancer because they can't quite wrap their heads around the fact that you have to go to a hospital to get diagnosed and become a statistic. I actually had somebody use the "...but people didn't cancer 2,000 years ago!" argument when telling me I was dumb for using regular doctors and not visiting the herbalist who "balanced" things. Yes they loving did get cancer 2,000 years ago. What do you think caused deaths of "old age?" Cancer was one of them. It isn't just a matter of people misunderstanding statistics either; some people deliberately ignore or misinterpret them. That or they pull up a news story about somebody that died during a treatment as if it invalidates the other million people that got better thanks to that treatment. That or they pull up the example of this one person they know who is allergic to penicillin so obviously we should never use penicillin ever at all and that means that vaccines are obviously bad too because they're basically penicillin for viruses, right? edit: Of course now that I think about it more I imagine a lot of this naturalist crap is the result of marketing and wishful thinking. If you go to the doctor with a problem they're going to give you a treatment that "will probably work, I don't know it does the job most of the time." Then sometimes it just doesn't or it has side-effects or you react badly to it. Medicine is stupidly complex so that poo poo happens sometimes. Then on the other hand you have companies like Pom saying "if you drink a poo poo load of overpriced pomegranate juice you will literally become immortal and invincible!" ToxicSlurpee fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Jan 29, 2015 |
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Jan 29, 2015 19:29
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ToxicSlurpee posted:I actually had somebody use the "...but people didn't cancer 2,000 years ago!" argument when telling me I was dumb for using regular doctors and not visiting the herbalist who "balanced" things. Yes they loving did get cancer 2,000 years ago. What do you think caused deaths of "old age?" Cancer was one of them. It isn't just a matter of people misunderstanding statistics either; some people deliberately ignore or misinterpret them. That or they pull up a news story about somebody that died during a treatment as if it invalidates the other million people that got better thanks to that treatment. That or they pull up the example of this one person they know who is allergic to penicillin so obviously we should never use penicillin ever at all and that means that vaccines are obviously bad too because they're basically penicillin for viruses, right? There are also medical records dating back to ancient Egypt that describe breast cancer, although the term Cancer wasn't always used and different cultures had different ways of describing it.
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Jan 29, 2015 19:38
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Elderbean posted:There are also medical records dating back to ancient Egypt that describe breast cancer, although the term Cancer wasn't always used and different cultures had different ways of describing it. There was also a difficulty in diagnosing and a lack of autopsies, so cancer was rarely diagnosed as a cause of death due to it rarely being seen outside the body.
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Jan 29, 2015 19:39
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OwlFancier posted:We're UK based so I don't know if it's a thing over here as much as in the US. It's a couple factors. One, raw milk tastes better. Two, boiling the hell out of something, like vegetables, will remove some of the nutrients out of it. Three, it's become very popular to avoid as much processing in your food as possible. Yeah, processed meats and other things are pretty awful for you but some people take it to the extreme and do dumb things like want to drink raw milk or start eating paleo.
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Jan 29, 2015 19:41
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OwlFancier posted:I don't know anybody who thinks that cooking your drat food properly is a bad idea. Christ if your reject any more fundamental scientific advances you'd be living in a cave and clubbing the fire-using tribe over the head for playing god. Man. Have I got a link for you. Googling "raw food meat diet" is entertaining much in the same way that watching a 3 year old with a fork heading for a light socket is.
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Jan 29, 2015 19:41
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Eej posted:Two, boiling the hell out of something, like vegetables, will remove some of the nutrients out of it. Its a double edged sword: Boiling CAN remove SOME (very little) nutritional value, but it also releases other nutritional values: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/raw-veggies-are-healthier/
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Jan 29, 2015 19:43
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It's worth noting that the primary reason it became so hard to sell raw milk was likely due to milk producers falsely claiming to sell pasteurized milk while cheaping out by not actually pasteurizing. Which then meant that milk at the store may or may not have actually been safe.
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Jan 29, 2015 19:44
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Christ, when I was working at a large food safety/testing lab a few years back a large dairy was shut down by the FDA for selling raw milk cheese containing listeria. The owners were on TV talking about how harmless it was and how no one would ever get sick and on and on and on and I just wanted to smack the poo poo out of them. Yes, please, let's increase the rate of spontaneous abortion, that sounds like a great public health policy!
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Jan 29, 2015 19:47
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Fionnoula posted:From a comment on a friend's facebook status My Platform: -Pro-Health -Anti-Death -Pro-Happy Things -Anti-Bad Things E: Pro-Unicorns
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Jan 29, 2015 19:49
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CommieGIR posted:Its a double edged sword: Boiling CAN remove SOME (very little) nutritional value, but it also releases other nutritional values: Don't let facts get in the way of my emotions.
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Jan 29, 2015 19:51
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Genocide Tendency posted:Man. Have I got a link for you. Oh my god that's so retarded  I think that's less 3 year old with a fork in a socket and more adult person slowly clubbing themselves to death with a rock because they think it makes a funny noise. Raw meat doesn't even taste good! Raw steak tastes mostly of nothing, sashimi tastes nice but that doesn't mean you hack chunks off a pig and stuff it in your gob you retard. Even sashimi stands a decent chance of giving you worms or some poo poo depending on where it's caught from.
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Jan 29, 2015 20:03
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Solkanar512 posted:Christ, when I was working at a large food safety/testing lab a few years back a large dairy was shut down by the FDA for selling raw milk cheese containing listeria. The owners were on TV talking about how harmless it was and how no one would ever get sick and on and on and on and I just wanted to smack the poo poo out of them. What can be more Natural then death?
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Jan 29, 2015 20:13
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Solkanar512 posted:Yes, please, let's increase the rate of spontaneous abortion, that sounds like a great public health policy! To be fair. If it slows the birth rate of anti-vaxxers and people like the pregnant idiot I work with.. I'm kinda seeing the benefits.
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Jan 29, 2015 20:16
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I apologize if this has been mentioned already, but Eula Biss' fantastic book on this topic has been nominated for the National Book Critics Award 2015. https://www.graywolfpress.org/books/immunity http://bookcritics.org/blog/archive/30-books-mark-athitakis-on-eula-biss-on-immunity
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Jan 29, 2015 20:34
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They had cancer. It was just diagnosed as "disease of the humours" or some poo poo.
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Jan 29, 2015 21:10
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I believe some kids in Australia died after drinking raw milk. It is illegal to sell unpasteurized milk intended for human consumption in Australia, however they sell it as "Milk Bath" but in the same container as regular milk and oh look a kid died how did this happen. Might have even been a toddler or something.
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Jan 29, 2015 22:41
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http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-11/raw-milk-company-defends-product-after-3yos-death/5959246 but it's natural e: See how the owner drinks it and the labelling, it's pretty loving blatant
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Jan 29, 2015 22:42
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I thought I could share this. It was a little exchange on my Facebook feed:
Shadowhand00 fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Jan 29, 2015 |
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Jan 29, 2015 23:42
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ToxicSlurpee posted:edit: Of course now that I think about it more I imagine a lot of this naturalist crap is the result of marketing and wishful thinking. If you go to the doctor with a problem they're going to give you a treatment that "will probably work, I don't know it does the job most of the time." Then sometimes it just doesn't or it has side-effects or you react badly to it. Medicine is stupidly complex so that poo poo happens sometimes. Then on the other hand you have companies like Pom saying "if you drink a poo poo load of overpriced pomegranate juice you will literally become immortal and invincible!" Yeah, there's a certain intuitive simplicity in alternative medicine that appeals to people. Viruses are bad!! Why would you deliberately INJECT someone with them?!
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Jan 29, 2015 23:43
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Shadowhand00 posted:I thought I could share this. It was a little exchange on my Facebook feed: Have some free blankets some conditions apply
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Jan 29, 2015 23:44
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Shadowhand00 posted:I thought I could share this. It was a little exchange on my Facebook feed:
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Jan 29, 2015 23:51
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Yeah that was kind of the glaring assertion, but Bob Zajko owns.
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Jan 29, 2015 23:58
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I had a friend tell me that Native Americans had no cancer because there were no toxins. She was also straight up insane.
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Jan 30, 2015 00:07
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Elderbean posted:There are also medical records dating back to ancient Egypt that describe breast cancer, although the term Cancer wasn't always used and different cultures had different ways of describing it. You don't even need to bring up the Edwin Smith Papyrus to debunk that stuff. Just ask them where they think the term 'cancer' comes from.
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Jan 30, 2015 00:08
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Thread question: In thinking about these issues, what shared traits do the health issues that attract craziness share in common? What distinguishes them from areas that seem less prone to this sort of abuse/nuttery?
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Jan 30, 2015 00:09
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Discendo Vox posted:Thread question: There are certain physical realities to a open cut or a broken bone that are hard to wave away.
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Jan 30, 2015 00:11
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Discendo Vox posted:Thread question: Depression? They want to find something physical that is wrong, like my uncle who said he had CFS for like 10 years. Maybe, but I think he was clinically depressed and aging.
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Jan 30, 2015 00:22
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pangstrom posted:I mean I like his response better, but there is no way your average Native Amerian got to their mid-70s back then. I'd be surprised if the average guy even got to his mid 40s. We get this strange image that people would be "old" at 32 or whatever because that's the average life expectancy, but that's not the way that figure works - a 32 year old in that society might be slightly more battered than us, but also likely more physically fit from having to work hard. I imagine the average cro-magnon would have hit his late fifties before being seriously or permanently impaired - but he might have a couple of siblings who died as infants, skewing the average down.
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Jan 30, 2015 00:32
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Nessus posted:While this is probably true, it is literally the average guy, and would be skewed for the same reason it would be skewed for anyone: It's the average, and a whole lot of children died of diseases. I doubt the Native Americans had no childhood diseases, though it's certainly true they appear to have had fewer than Europeans did. All that said, if someone can tell me what you're "typical" life expectancy for a (pre Columbus obv.) Native American who made it to early adulthood that would be interesting / I would be happy to be proven wrong.
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Jan 30, 2015 00:49
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Discendo Vox posted:Thread question: People do not see the harm from things first hand so they assume they do not exist. I mentioned this before but where I'm originally from vaccination is basically gospel because pretty much everybody remembers awful diseases. I had pertussis as a child and remember seeing teenagers that were out of commission for weeks thanks to chicken pox. People that have not seen such things but hear "VACCINES HAVE POISON AND CAUSE AUTISM  " every day of their lives are going to start thinking that whatever good they might do doesn't compensate for the bad.pangstrom posted:I get what you mean by skewing (where the average wouldn't be representative of when a lot of people actually died), but in the context of a vaccination argument you kind of have to include kids getting mowed down by whatever. Late 50s is really stretching it, I think, though I have no specific knowledge and a quick google isn't turning up anything. Living without technology / in the wild / without semi-modern healthcare / whatever is loving brutal. Yeah we die of being fat and lazy but it takes awhile for that to catch up to you unless you're morbidly obese or something. And even then you're probably going to make it to 40. In the medieval period a man that lived to 18 could reasonably expect like 60 years. Things that skewed it down were children dying of course but also women dying young. Death during childbirth was pretty common and obviously men don't have to die of that. Then there was war and violent deaths and stuff. Even so, barring accidents (workplace safety is kind of new thing), famine, and violent deaths people could probably live to 60 if they died naturally for much of human history. Famines are another big thing in that they gently caress up peoples' immune systems.
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Jan 30, 2015 02:42
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OwlFancier posted:Raw meat doesn't even taste good! Raw steak tastes mostly of nothing, sashimi tastes nice but that doesn't mean you hack chunks off a pig and stuff it in your gob you retard. Even sashimi stands a decent chance of giving you worms or some poo poo depending on where it's caught from. I like beef tartare (and very rare steaks), ceviche, sashimi, and all that stuff, but that's just because it's loving delicious, not because I imagine it's healthier or anything. I'm willing to put up with the risks because I enjoy the taste and texture (and raw steak does not taste mostly of nothing!)
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Jan 30, 2015 04:38
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PT6A posted:I like beef tartare (and very rare steaks), ceviche, sashimi, and all that stuff, but that's just because it's loving delicious, not because I imagine it's healthier or anything. I'm willing to put up with the risks because I enjoy the taste and texture (and raw steak does not taste mostly of nothing!) Very rare steak is generally ok, most bacterial contamination is on the outside of meat, the inside is going to be uncontaminated. Problems arise when the meat has been improperly stored for long enough that toxin producing bacteria have a chance to reproduce and cover the meat in toxins, cooking won't do anything for you there. This is also why hamburger turns so quickly, the inside and outside are all mixed together and there is a ton of surface area for bacteria to propagate along.
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Jan 30, 2015 05:03
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Discendo Vox posted:Thread question: I think it's health issues with a degree of uncertainty, such as chronic fatigue which has an uncertain cause or cancer which has an uncertain prognosis. As was said earlier, a broken bone is a clear problem with a known cause and solution. It's also be a factor that a layperson can easily understand the cure for a broken bone, but might not understand why the doctor won't prescribe antibiotics to fight the flu. Chamale fucked around with this message at 09:25 on Jan 30, 2015 |
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Jan 30, 2015 09:22
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PT6A posted:I like beef tartare (and very rare steaks), ceviche, sashimi, and all that stuff, but that's just because it's loving delicious, not because I imagine it's healthier or anything. I'm willing to put up with the risks because I enjoy the taste and texture (and raw steak does not taste mostly of nothing!) Rare steak is lovely, but I tried it blue once and it just didn't taste of anything. But yeah eating stupid crap because it's nice is fine, claiming it's actually good for you is pretty retarded.
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Jan 30, 2015 09:28
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OwlFancier posted:Rare steak is lovely, but I tried it blue once and it just didn't taste of anything.
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Jan 30, 2015 09:56
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Laphroaig posted:Agreed. Fear mixed with "Nature Knows Best" is basically the issue. Also a strange unwillingness to adopt scientific positivism - that Science is a tool that can create good outcomes or bad outcomes. Instead we have like the following bad ad-hoc argument: This isn't the worst idea I've heard. Whatever your ideology happens to be, none of us like seeing kids dying from easily preventable diseases. Let's get a list of arguments to counter the Anti-vaxxers. They're going to list they're cons on vaccinations, let us have a clear pro-vaccination list to refute their arguments. Since calling someone a dumbass on Facebook doesn't work. We could use a FaQ to argue against the Anti-Vaxxers. We should have a list of their horrible arguments. And we should have some scripted counterarguments handy. Let's face it, we've been acting like smug bastards in an echo chamber, but we haven't cracked the anti-Vax crowd. We need arguments that can at least make the Anti-Vaxers think twice. So for example: Anti-Vax: The drug companies are getting rich off vaccines. Pro-Vaccine: The drug companies are getting rich selling dick drugs to middle aged business men. The profits from drugs like Viagra and Cialis are worth billions of dollars, and totally eclipse any chump change made from vaccinations. thrakkorzog fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Jan 30, 2015 |
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Jan 30, 2015 13:04
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