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Ah yes, it's just a joke. The other million examples of advertising from the time period that portray women as being either objects that men own or so stupid that they need to be told how to do everything are also jokes and in no way reflect the society or time period that they come from. Thanks for the clarification Irish Joe, you've opened my eyes and now I see that sexism never actually existed!
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Jan 31, 2015 03:12
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VDay posted:Ah yes, it's just a joke. The other million examples of advertising from the time period that portray women as being either objects that men own or so stupid that they need to be told how to do everything are also jokes and in no way reflect the society or time period that they come from. Thanks for the clarification Irish Joe, you've opened my eyes and now I see that sexism never actually existed! You're awfully sarcastic for someone who bases his knowledge of the 1940s on magazine ads.
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Jan 31, 2015 03:28
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Irish Joe, what do you think of Margie Carter's lips? Mean-a-while, here's a Youtube version of that promo for the next Agent Carter episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH_vVdpR6_8
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Jan 31, 2015 03:31
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The MSJ posted:Irish Joe, what do you think of Margie Carter's lips? Which ones?
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Jan 31, 2015 03:33
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The way the show handles sexism is its strongest suit. It's specifically about that moment in history when women were being forced out of roles they had filled during the war, and it makes things like the way single women were expected to live into obstacles the lead has to deal with in order to kick bad guys in the face. It would have been really easy to reduce it all to a few guys making crass jokes about dumb broads, but instead they show how pervasive it is.
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Jan 31, 2015 03:47
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Maxwell Lord posted:The way the show handles sexism is its strongest suit. It's specifically about that moment in history when women were being forced out of roles they had filled during the war, and it makes things like the way single women were expected to live into obstacles the lead has to deal with in order to kick bad guys in the face. It would have been really easy to reduce it all to a few guys making crass jokes about dumb broads, but instead they show how pervasive it is. Although it's possible that the last time one of Peggy's colleagues touched her she broke something important.
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Jan 31, 2015 04:21
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Yea I was really surprised at the absolute lack of any sexual harassment. She's a looker.
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Jan 31, 2015 04:38
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You really wanna be the mook makin' time with Captain America's sweetheart? They never found his body, after all.
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Jan 31, 2015 05:34
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Mars4523 posted:They actually toned down the workplace sexism way the gently caress down in the show. It's really not showing much of the sexual aggression, physical or verbal, that would have been prevalent at the time (and to a degree still happens now). That's exactly the point, though. We see ZERO sexual harassment, even towards Peggy's friends. If the show wants to be accurate with its portrayal of sexism in that era, why is it shying away from that stuff? Instead we get lame, badly written, badly acted speeches about glass ceilings and women's real place in the world, and Peggy being ordered to get lunch for everyone. I posit that stuff like that takes away from the show, rather than adding to it, AND fails to communicate how bad things really were for women back then.
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Jan 31, 2015 05:57
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enraged_camel posted:That's exactly the point, though. We see ZERO sexual harassment, even towards Peggy's friends. If the show wants to be accurate with its portrayal of sexism in that era, why is it shying away from that stuff? Farva was pretty much a sexual harasser in the first episode. Let me get this straight, we have complaints that the show is too heavy handed on the chauvinism, and complaints that its not heavy enough because we don't see overt sexual harassment? I can't wait until next week, the previews make it seem like all the agents are finally going to realize who exactly they are dealing with.
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Jan 31, 2015 06:23
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swickles posted:Farva was pretty much a sexual harasser in the first episode.
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Jan 31, 2015 06:28
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"She's not being sexual harrassed enough, MY IMMERSION!" You guys are priceless.
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Jan 31, 2015 06:31
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enraged_camel posted:That's exactly the point, though. We see ZERO sexual harassment, even towards Peggy's friends. If the show wants to be accurate with its portrayal of sexism in that era, why is it shying away from that stuff? Also they've had sexual harrassment in the form of her waitress friend getting her rear end slapped by the guy who specifically came into her diner to make her life hell that Peggy threatened to shank if she saw him in there again. quote:Instead we get lame, badly written, badly acted speeches about glass ceilings and women's real place in the world, and Peggy being ordered to get lunch for everyone. I posit that stuff like that takes away from the show, rather than adding to it, AND fails to communicate how bad things really were for women back then. Sexual harrassment is old as the hills and still goes on today, its not like that was anything new for women. But holding down traditionally male jobs and being praised for their work? That is some heady poo poo when you've been told since birth you're the weaker sex.The financial independence was hella nice too, and equally hard to give up. World War II sowed the seeds for both the Civil Rights movement and the Women's Lib movements in the 60s, and I think showing just what women were asked to give up and how frustrating and enraging it was is more important that reenacting Mad Men over and over again.
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Jan 31, 2015 07:09
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I agree with all that except the notion that we're supposed to find any of the non-Enver Gjokaj SSR agents to be remotely likeable. Unless something changes in the next episode I'm fairly certain that the audience is intended to really want to see Agent One Tree Hill shot into space in a paper rocket.
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Jan 31, 2015 07:14
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it also doesn't help that NOBODY LIKES HIM. The Chief even said to him "don't be that guy"
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Jan 31, 2015 07:41
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swickles posted:Let me get this straight, we have complaints that the show is too heavy handed on the chauvinism, and complaints that its not heavy enough because we don't see overt sexual harassment? No, my complaint is that the portrayal of chauvinism in the show is one dimensional and the delivery of the message is too clumsy.
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Jan 31, 2015 09:19
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AoS is dumb and I'm never watching it but I enjoy Agent Carter.
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Jan 31, 2015 11:47
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Oracle posted:I think showing just what women were asked to give up and how frustrating and enraging it was is more important that reenacting Mad Men over and over again. Except Mad Men does it so much better because it doesn't boil sexism down with child-like simplicity. Its easy to say it was wrong to toss women out of the workplace and blah blah blah, but the question is: was it really? World War II took an unprecedented toll on this country. Nearly every eligible man had to put his life on hold for years, risk life and limb in a strange land, and experience unfathomable trauma only to come home and.. what? Be told he still can't start his life because there are no jobs? How is that fair to the men who did their duty and made that sacrifice? And, more importantly, what happens to this country when there are millions of unemployed, disaffected young men running around? Everybody has to make sacrifices in war. Men put up their lives, women put up their careers. Yes, it sucks, but that's life and its disingenuous to portray the social cost of war as "men are all mean sexists, rah rah tough female spy!"
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Jan 31, 2015 13:35
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Irish Joe posted:Except Mad Men does it so much better because it doesn't boil sexism down with child-like simplicity. Its easy to say it was wrong to toss women out of the workplace and blah blah blah, but the question is: was it really? World War II took an unprecedented toll on this country. Nearly every eligible man had to put his life on hold for years, risk life and limb in a strange land, and experience unfathomable trauma only to come home and.. what? Be told he still can't start his life because there are no jobs? How is that fair to the men who did their duty and made that sacrifice? And, more importantly, what happens to this country when there are millions of unemployed, disaffected young men running around? Everybody has to make sacrifices in war. Men put up their lives, women put up their careers. Yes, it sucks, but that's life and its disingenuous to portray the social cost of war as "men are all mean sexists, rah rah tough female spy!" This post is just precious. 
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Jan 31, 2015 15:54
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Irish Joe posted:Except Mad Men does it so much better because it doesn't boil sexism down with child-like simplicity. Its easy to say it was wrong to toss women out of the workplace and blah blah blah, but the question is: was it really? World War II took an unprecedented toll on this country. Nearly every eligible man had to put his life on hold for years, risk life and limb in a strange land, and experience unfathomable trauma only to come home and.. what? Be told he still can't start his life because there are no jobs? How is that fair to the men who did their duty and made that sacrifice? And, more importantly, what happens to this country when there are millions of unemployed, disaffected young men running around? Everybody has to make sacrifices in war. Men put up their lives, women put up their careers. Yes, it sucks, but that's life and its disingenuous to portray the social cost of war as "men are all mean sexists, rah rah tough female spy!" Hahahahahahahahahshsbshshsgsdkfkcj
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Jan 31, 2015 17:25
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Guys, the ignore button was created for a reason. I think the lack of sexual aggressiveness from Carter's coworkers *is* a sanitized version of the issue, but that's because it's not part of the intended tone of the show. This is first and foremost a capes show, where the problems she faces are ones that can be solved with pluck, wit and violence. It's a world where racism is bad, and only bad people are racists, and a righteous heart can always save the day. She's not going to be facing the insoluble 'oh god, why are humans so lovely to each other' quandary of rape culture. Last week, I had a guy in class complain about how this show made Carter look awesome at the expense of men. He felt that the writers had so little faith in the character, that the only way to make her look smart was to make all her male superiors drooling idiots. If *he'd* been writing the show, the chief would have figured out she was a double agent in the first episode, and she'd have become a triple agent to catch Stark! The complainant was then devoured alive by misandrists, blessed be their holy chromosomes.
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Jan 31, 2015 18:08
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"Put him on ignore, he's making us look dumb." Music to my ears
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Jan 31, 2015 18:24
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Irish Joe posted:Except Mad Men does it so much better because it doesn't boil sexism down with child-like simplicity. Its easy to say it was wrong to toss women out of the workplace and blah blah blah, but the question is: was it really? World War II took an unprecedented toll on this country. Nearly every eligible man had to put his life on hold for years, risk life and limb in a strange land, and experience unfathomable trauma only to come home and.. what? Be told he still can't start his life because there are no jobs? How is that fair to the men who did their duty and made that sacrifice? And, more importantly, what happens to this country when there are millions of unemployed, disaffected young men running around? Everybody has to make sacrifices in war. Men put up their lives, women put up their careers. Yes, it sucks, but that's life and its disingenuous to portray the social cost of war as "men are all mean sexists, rah rah tough female spy!" those men weren't supposed to come home. They were supposed to die taking Japan, but the coward terrorist president at the time decided to use literal nuclear bombs on civilian populations ending the war. irish joe this is beyond the bog standard stupidity you typically display
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Jan 31, 2015 19:14
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I just realized Agents of SHIELD mid-season premiere is not for another month. Did they do that to give Agent Carter more room? Most other shows re-premiered in January...
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Jan 31, 2015 19:34
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enraged_camel posted:That's exactly the point, though. We see ZERO sexual harassment, even towards Peggy's friends. If the show wants to be accurate with its portrayal of sexism in that era, why is it shying away from that stuff? Do you also clamor for her to get beaten up when she disagrees with them? You like your TV lady's with a shiner? Would that be better for your immersion? Irish Joe posted:Except Mad Men does it so much better because it doesn't boil sexism down with child-like simplicity. Its easy to say it was wrong to toss women out of the workplace and blah blah blah, but the question is: was it really? World War II took an unprecedented toll on this country. Nearly every eligible man had to put his life on hold for years, risk life and limb in a strange land, and experience unfathomable trauma only to come home and.. what? Be told he still can't start his life because there are no jobs? How is that fair to the men who did their duty and made that sacrifice? And, more importantly, what happens to this country when there are millions of unemployed, disaffected young men running around? Everybody has to make sacrifices in war. Men put up their lives, women put up their careers. Yes, it sucks, but that's life and its disingenuous to portray the social cost of war as "men are all mean sexists, rah rah tough female spy!" Shiiit.. I had never seen it this way. Hold on while I go tell my girl she has to quit her job because social reforms happened at an inconvenient time in history. Dalael fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Jan 31, 2015 |
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Jan 31, 2015 19:52
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Irish Joe posted:Its easy to say it was wrong to toss women out of the workplace and blah blah blah, but the question is: was it really? Yes. Yes, it was. Wow, what a stimulating discussion!
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Jan 31, 2015 20:12
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Dalael posted:Do you also clamor for her to get beaten up when she disagrees with them? No, but it would be interesting if The Griffith turned out to be a safe shelter for women trying to escape domestic abuse, for example. The current portrayal of sexism in the show is extremely shallow and takes away from the general message.
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Jan 31, 2015 20:27
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enraged_camel posted:I just realized Agents of SHIELD mid-season premiere is not for another month. Did they do that to give Agent Carter more room? Most other shows re-premiered in January... It's so the 2nd half of the season can play out without breaks. Agent Carter was intended to fill in the gap between AoS episodes.
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Jan 31, 2015 20:42
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OB_Juan posted:Was the dog a Nazi? The dog was neither Nazi nor Pizza. Opportunity lost.
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Jan 31, 2015 21:30
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enraged_camel posted:No, but it would be interesting if The Griffith turned out to be a safe shelter for women trying to escape domestic abuse, for example. It sort of is, in that this is one place where women could be safe- but in exchange for safety they have to surrender their freedom and be treated like teenagers at boarding school. This is from history, places like this were a thing. Unmarried women were assumed to be in need of chaperoning. It's not shallow to show the reality.
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Jan 31, 2015 21:35
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Maxwell Lord posted:It's not shallow to show the reality. It is shallow in the sense that we're seeing a very watered down version of reality.
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Jan 31, 2015 22:19
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It's an all-ages comic book adventure show about a plucky female secret agent. Does anyone sincerely feel like a serious plot about sexual or physical abuse is warranted? You can address aspects of an issue without having to address every aspect of it.
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Jan 31, 2015 22:33
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enraged_camel posted:It is shallow in the sense that we're seeing a very watered down version of reality. There's always more of the story to show, of course, but I think they're already showing a lot that the average viewer would not know about. Instead of "people sure were sexist back then"- which everyone knows- it's "in this period women who had enjoyed some measure of liberation and empowerment were being pushed back into submissive roles in order to make room for the men." Which isn't completely obscure, but it's rarely delved into in pop culture. It's well integrated into the action/adventure plot by making things like the Griffith's curfew and no-men policy into obstacles Peggy has to deal with, and even her subservient "coffee lady" status in the office is part of the story challenge- she has to keep her head low, she can't argue convincingly that maybe Stark should be given a bit more credit, nobody will listen to that. She has to instead eke out some time to do the work that needs to be done between her job and the rules of the place where she lives. The threat of male violence is still in the show, just linked to the espionage action- what happened to her and her roommate in the premiere may have been a result of her being a spy, but it's also demonstrative of how genuinely unsafe it was to be a woman alone in the city. Though the Griffith's policies are played for laughs when Howard Stark is macking around as her houseguest, it adds a certain extra level of danger when a real assassin comes in and levels a gun at Peggy's neighbor- which of course is then tweaked. There's also some good shading with the portrayal of the men. Most of the boys in the office are of the "Eh, broads, what do they know?" variety, while Sousa seems to have more respect for Peggy but feels he can't really go to bat for her because he's got his own problems to deal with. Stark and Jarvis both know that Peggy is capable of taking care of herself, but they keep her out of the loop in some important ways, out of a feeling that her emotions- her feelings for Steve- would compromise her. Nobody is fully outside of the patriarchy- it's pervasive. That's what makes it feel more real to me than if the sexism were represented just by the obvious troglodytes. It's not like The Help or something where you have the obvious bad racist white people and the saintly enlightened white people.
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Jan 31, 2015 22:43
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Why is there even a loving winter break? Winter breaks are the worst loving idea in the history of ever. Also, if Skye turning into an Inhuman takes more then like, 2 episodes to wrap up I'm loving done. Take a page from Arrow on pacing you jerks.
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Jan 31, 2015 23:08
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Arrgytehpirate posted:Why is there even a loving winter break? Winter breaks are the worst loving idea in the history of ever. Because they know ratings will rank over the holidays? And maybe they want to have a holiday off from working themselves?
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Jan 31, 2015 23:27
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Arrgytehpirate posted:Why is there even a loving winter break? Winter breaks are the worst loving idea in the history of ever. Well she's already been Inhuman and had her powers activated, so I guess you're not done?
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Jan 31, 2015 23:59
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Arrgytehpirate posted:Take a page from Arrow on pacing you jerks. I haven't watched Arrow, but didn't it take him two years to figure out Deathstroke was his island buddy?
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Feb 1, 2015 00:01
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Irish Joe posted:I haven't watched Arrow, but didn't it take him two years to figure out Deathstroke was his island buddy? No.
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Feb 1, 2015 00:03
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Arrgytehpirate posted:Why is there even a loving winter break? Winter breaks are the worst loving idea in the history of ever. Because it allows the cast and crew to take a breather before getting back to work to crunch out the rest of the season. And pushing off this show's return until March lets them air the remaining episodes without interruption (unlike PoI which has had three different 2-week breaks this winter and will probably have another break a month from now).
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Feb 1, 2015 00:43
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xeria posted:(unlike PoI which has had three different 2-week breaks this winter and will probably have another break a month from now). Whyy must you do this to me POI Yeah airing Agent Carter in a longer than usual SHIELD break is fantastic and I kinda wish more shows had the resources to do something similar.
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Feb 1, 2015 00:45
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