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Transient People posted:I refuse to believe such a brainfart could happen at the pro stage. That's an entirely new level of 'whoops', way beyond buying Boots 1 again when you have Boots 2. Didn't HotshotGG do that once in S3? Or go into a match with no runes or something.
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Feb 1, 2015 05:53
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AdjectiveNoun posted:Didn't HotshotGG do that once in S3? Or go into a match with no runes or something. Yes, but it's loving Hotshot. I expect Piglet to be better than him. 
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Feb 1, 2015 05:56
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AdjectiveNoun posted:Didn't HotshotGG do that once in S3? Or go into a match with no runes or something. Yeah. It's pretty inexcusable in both cases. It's inexcusable for a brand new player of the game to forget to spend mastery points.
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Feb 1, 2015 05:56
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He did it on purpose to help c9 get their groove back while simultaneously mindgaming every bot lane in the LCS into thinking that he is beatable.
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Feb 1, 2015 05:59
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Libertine posted:Yeah. It's pretty inexcusable in both cases. It's inexcusable for a brand new player of the game to forget to spend mastery points. That's kind of silly, brand new players barely know what mastery points do, let alone that they should always be using them. Piglet on the other hand is/was a world class player of the game who won the World Championship of Season 3 and gets paid to play this video game for a living so it's kind of bad that he didn't. Nobody is perfect and they didn't win any of their lanes so it isn't something you can point to and say "this is why they lost" but it probably didn't help them in the 2v2 against Sneaky's Kalista.
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Feb 1, 2015 06:17
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occipitallobe posted:Honestly, that's more a tossup. Dig beat Coast, WFX lost to Coast. WFX might be stronger in the long run, but 1 day after a 33 minute loss to TSM? Probably not. I tend not to have faith in teams in the week they replace or bring in a player, and it's usually borne out. Winterfox looks really shaky, their synergy is going to build up slowly but Flaresz definitely had a more impressive first two games than their starter's first.
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Feb 1, 2015 06:25
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Flameingblack posted:Dignitas shouldn't have beat Coast. Coast shouldn't have lost today, either. Coast: Literally winning up until they lose. Scarra the prophet. Against considerably worse opposition than TSM though. You can't say beating scrubs is the same as challenging the NA champion for your first LCS brush.
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Feb 1, 2015 06:39
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AdjectiveNoun posted:Didn't HotshotGG do that once in S3? Or go into a match with no runes or something. Yes but Hotshotgg won.
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Feb 1, 2015 06:43
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I don't play anymore so can't really find this out myself, but is Kalista horribly overpowered or what? Why isn't she 100% P/B? She has perfect, automated orbwalking from her passive, which means she's faster-than-advertised while in combat; excellent early game burst to help snowball; absurd Thresh-like engage/disengage options for your support; and a better-than-smite objective control ability... what's the drawback? Is she trash late or something?
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Feb 1, 2015 09:14
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Allyn posted:I don't play anymore so can't really find this out myself, but is Kalista horribly overpowered or what? Why isn't she 100% P/B? She has perfect, automated orbwalking from her passive, which means she's faster-than-advertised while in combat; excellent early game burst to help snowball; absurd Thresh-like engage/disengage options for your support; and a better-than-smite objective control ability... what's the drawback? Is she trash late or something? This is the untrue part. Actually doing what Sneaky and Doublelift were doing with Kalista and effortlessly pinballing around the map, untouched by skillshots is in fact hard as all gently caress to do properly and requires a lot of precision and really good ADC mechanics. Most Silver players that do the dumb Hurricane Kalista build lose lane because they built a bunch of attack speed when the other guy came back with a BF sword, won't know how to kite properly, and feed. Or, if they do get away with it, it's because they got really fed by the other ADC being bad, and leapfrogged into building a bunch of AD alongside the Hurricane. Actually playing Kalista properly requires you be phenomenally good (the only goon that plays Kalista to any degree of success and impressiveness is Ez Been Real/Peerless Ezrael/Bond, for reference) and have crazy APM, which most people don't have. Last I heard her popularity and win rate were in the toilet, although she did get significant buffs in 5.1. Also if you aren't communicating with your support on voice comms and you ult at the wrong time or otherwise don't effectively coordinate your engage you're going to die horribly. Kalista was clearly an ADC who was designed to succeed at the top, top end of meta duo lane play, with two Diamond/Challenger players talking on voice chat to coordinate slick plays. Hence she looks absurdly broken in competitive, which is basically what she was designed for. In the actual solo queue games we all play she's not nearly as useful unless you're already a phenomenal ADC and have a support you have good synergy with, a rarity in uncoordinated solo play. Lightning Knight fucked around with this message at 09:22 on Feb 1, 2015 |
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Feb 1, 2015 09:19
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Lightning Knight posted:This is the untrue part. Actually doing what Sneaky and Doublelift were doing with Kalista and effortlessly pinballing around the map, untouched by skillshots is in fact hard as all gently caress to do properly and requires a lot of precision and really good ADC mechanics. Most Silver players that do the dumb Hurricane Kalista build lose lane because they built a bunch of attack speed when the other guy came back with a BF sword, won't know how to kite properly, and feed. Or, if they do get away with it, it's because they got really fed by the other ADC being bad, and leapfrogged into building a bunch of AD alongside the Hurricane. Actually playing Kalista properly requires you be phenomenally good (the only goon that plays Kalista to any degree of success and impressiveness is Ez Been Real/Peerless Ezrael/Bond, for reference) and have crazy APM, which most people don't have. Last I heard her popularity and win rate were in the toilet, although she did get significant buffs in 5.1. Oh I've no doubt it's difficult, but I'm talking about a purely competitive standpoint. Wouldn't you expect pro players to get that poo poo down pat after many many hours of playing her in game? Which gives her a huuuge edge at the top level.
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Feb 1, 2015 09:22
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A bad Kalista has replaced a bad Ezreal as the Most Worthless Marksman
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Feb 1, 2015 09:23
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Allyn posted:Oh I've no doubt it's difficult, but I'm talking about a purely competitive standpoint. Wouldn't you expect pro players to get that poo poo down pat after many many hours of playing her in game? Which gives her a huuuge edge at the top level. I edited my post as an afterthought to better address this but yeah, she basically is "the competitive ADC." She wasn't made for normal plebs to play in solo queue, she was made for Sneaky/WildTurtle/Doublelift to do stupidly incredible things with in the LCS. I don't really know how they would nerf her (if such a thing is necessary) in a way that would leave her in a playable state for normal players but I do know that the ADC play we saw today with her was entirely deserved cause she is not an easy champion and Sneaky and co. probably put dozens of hours of practice in to get good enough to do what they were doing.
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Feb 1, 2015 09:24
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Lightning Knight posted:I edited my post as an afterthought to better address this but yeah, she basically is "the competitive ADC." She wasn't made for normal plebs to play in solo queue, she was made for Sneaky/WildTurtle/Doublelift to do stupidly incredible things with in the LCS. I don't really know how they would nerf her (if such a thing is necessary) in a way that would leave her in a playable state for normal players but I do know that the ADC play we saw today with her was entirely deserved cause she is not an easy champion and Sneaky and co. probably put dozens of hours of practice in to get good enough to do what they were doing. Yeah, I get you. Cheers. I really don't think they're there yet with balancing her, then -- the way Piglet was getting chunked out by Sneaky was just absurd, and literally outdamaging smite is utterly senseless. Removes a huge opportunity impossible to throw objectives. Comebacks are already rare enough as it is... NTT posted:A bad Kalista has replaced a bad Ezreal as the Most Worthless Marksman Hah, yeah, I can imagine that
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Feb 1, 2015 09:31
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Lightning Knight posted:I edited my post as an afterthought to better address this but yeah, she basically is "the competitive ADC." She wasn't made for normal plebs to play in solo queue, she was made for Sneaky/WildTurtle/Doublelift to do stupidly incredible things with in the LCS. I don't really know how they would nerf her (if such a thing is necessary) in a way that would leave her in a playable state for normal players but I do know that the ADC play we saw today with her was entirely deserved cause she is not an easy champion and Sneaky and co. probably put dozens of hours of practice in to get good enough to do what they were doing. You hit her W's passive damage I think. Beyond that the only thing you could touch are the bases on Rend, but they're already so tiny that it's hard to nerf them further. Fake Edit: Also, Kalista yesterday/tonight was a blindside pick. Don't expect her to crush this hard again when teams know what she's capable of. This is her first competitive outing in NA, she was going to decimate regardless considering how long it's taken for her to see the light after release. Kalista has absolutely no safety net. If she gets set back she is not coming back, ever. She's probably the champion with the most unstable equilibrium in the game.
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Feb 1, 2015 09:32
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The same arguments have been made for Elise and Lee Sin, regular recipients of merciless nerfs aimed purely at competitive play at the cost of solo queue viability. One thing that certainly is insane about Kalista is her Baron/Dragon execute, it's the best in the game by far. There's no question her E should be nerfed with a damage cap against monsters. Beyond that there isn't enough of a sample to say much of anything about her, looks strong though.
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Feb 1, 2015 09:41
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Piglet was getting chunked by Sneaky because he wasn't running masteries. It's hard to say anything definitive about that game given that. For what it's worth I've been much more impressed by NA Kalista play than EU or Korean Kalista play. I think the trio of players that was discussed have all done really good things on the champion and have innovated good strategic combinations that have been quite lacking in other regions.
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Feb 1, 2015 09:43
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Libertine posted:Piglet was getting chunked by Sneaky because he wasn't running masteries. It's hard to say anything definitive about that game given that. No it's not, Piglet is overhyped and ordinary on his best day, seriously, no masteries is a mistake people wouldn't even make in soloqueue let alone in a pro match.
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Feb 1, 2015 09:57
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Piglet wasn't even top 5 AD Carries in Korea by the end of Season 4 World's came around, he was playing on tilt in Korea and it showed. Normally that's still enough to put you ahead of NA players, but without communication on Liquid he might as well be a random Diamond Vayne main. Let's see how long he tolerates Xpecial before he cries. Or Xpecial cries. Maybe they both cry. Mechanically Piglet will probably be back up there once he adjusts, but that could be the end of the Spring split before that happens, but it's still his first game. Maybe Liquid should have spent the money on Forgiven instead. Buying Korean players isn't always going to work out as well as it did for China or TSM, Ryu was equally as hyped as one of those players just a level below Faker. Got to EU, and is hardly making an impact anywhere. Reignover who was a total unknown before coming over ends up being a jungle savant and helping FNatic get very impressive early game leads. The formula seems to be stop picking All-Stars and pick up solo queue players then train them up. They're more hungry, they're more willing to learn. RealFoxy fucked around with this message at 10:05 on Feb 1, 2015 |
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Feb 1, 2015 10:00
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Flameingblack posted:Or Xpecial cries. He already did last week in his post game interview with Keith after they carried their team to a win. Xpecial made special mention of how much easier it was to communicate to Keith and, at least to me anyway, seemed very passive aggresive about working with Piglet over someone like Keith.
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Feb 1, 2015 10:06
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Ihki posted:The same arguments have been made for Elise and Lee Sin, regular recipients of merciless nerfs aimed purely at competitive play at the cost of solo queue viability. One thing that certainly is insane about Kalista is her Baron/Dragon execute, it's the best in the game by far. There's no question her E should be nerfed with a damage cap against monsters. Beyond that there isn't enough of a sample to say much of anything about her, looks strong though. But...Elise and Lee always did have a safety net even if they lost early, that was kind of why they were utterly stupid. Let's take a moment to remember that release Elise could legit go 0-5 and still kill you afterward because her kit was THAT moronic. Kalista doesn't have that level of power baked in, her ability to fall back on kit strength is nil if she's put down.
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Feb 1, 2015 10:08
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Xpecial also did mention Piglet wasn't his first choice for their AD carry in an interview or something. I think when Piglet was first in NA though, Doublelift said that Liquid would probably be the best team in NA and Piglet was really impressive iirc. But Doublelift is wrong about stuff like that pretty much all the time. It's still too early to write Piglet off based on one bad game though.
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Feb 1, 2015 10:09
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Previous Jesus posted:It's still too early to write Piglet off based on one bad game though. The problem is Keith/Xpecial totally dominated and carried their team to victory last week, and this week Piglet forgot his masteries, there's no other way to look at it that to wonder why Piglet is there over Keith. I'll grant that it's not totally Piglet's fault, a coach or manager should have been straight on that poo poo once he moved over from Korea, but still, it's a pretty major fuckup.
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Feb 1, 2015 10:13
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Transient People posted:But...Elise and Lee always did have a safety net even if they lost early, that was kind of why they were utterly stupid. Let's take a moment to remember that release Elise could legit go 0-5 and still kill you afterward because her kit was THAT moronic. Kalista doesn't have that level of power baked in, her ability to fall back on kit strength is nil if she's put down. I don't follow your logic in the slightest (this happens quite often  ). Why is her uniquely crafted and competitively untested kit not inherently strong? While she may have weaknesses that are not being exploited properly, she is not being used to full capacity with the first competitive games played on her, either. We certainly don't have anything to look at to show any part of what you're saying.
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Feb 1, 2015 10:27
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Jesus, imagine if NA really has sapped Piglets skill.
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Feb 1, 2015 10:48
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Ihki posted:I don't follow your logic in the slightest (this happens quite often Because like 85% of her power budget is allocated onto Rend. It's what enables Kalista to run a build that isn't the cookie cutter IE/PD/LW combo, since it diminishes the important of crit to a drastic degree. if Kalista cannot get sufficient AS or AD when the enemy carry is hitting his spikes, she cannot come back against them because of her inbuilt lack of steroids, which are traded in for her mobility and incredibly powerful execute. It's like with Ashe, where you can't really teamfight well (as opposed to initiating with an arrow, that's a different kettle of fish) if you didn't get to farm a bunch or got kills because of how little your kit gives you in terms of free stats. Elise and Lee were utterly overloaded with stats and item independent damage on top of mobility similar but not equivalent to Kalista. This is why they were such colossal shitlords before being kneecapped, and why Kalista isn't so much. The only free stat she gets is her max HP percent damage proc. Everything else is keyed off her farm level. EDIT: Just to clarify because I reread what you said: None of this means Kalista's kit is inherently strong, because it absolutely is. What I'm saying is that it doesn't offer any stat bonuses. A lack of stat bonuses means that if she gets behind, she's staying behind - no amount of ranking up her skills is going to get her the money she needs to duel a more fed Graves or Kog or whatever you like, because they have some skills in their kit that give them a statistical edge that makes it harder for them to lose a punch-out. If Kalista wants to kill somebody from behind she has to massively outplay them. Transient People fucked around with this message at 11:01 on Feb 1, 2015 |
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Feb 1, 2015 10:58
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Does anyone remember Bjergsen taking the wrong Runes and Masteries and having the match stopped by a ref, and them proceeding to remake the entire game and have to repick and ban the same champs so he could take the right setup? Point is, this isn't the first time one of the best players in NA has had a brain fart, and I wouldn't give him that much poo poo as of now. He should have noticed it, and got a ref or something though. Maybe the language barrier stopped him from vocalizing it though.
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Feb 1, 2015 11:17
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Transient People posted:Because like 85% of her power budget is allocated onto Rend. It's what enables Kalista to run a build that isn't the cookie cutter IE/PD/LW combo, since it diminishes the important of crit to a drastic degree. if Kalista cannot get sufficient AS or AD when the enemy carry is hitting his spikes, she cannot come back against them because of her inbuilt lack of steroids, which are traded in for her mobility and incredibly powerful execute. It's like with Ashe, where you can't really teamfight well (as opposed to initiating with an arrow, that's a different kettle of fish) if you didn't get to farm a bunch or got kills because of how little your kit gives you in terms of free stats. Elise and Lee were utterly overloaded with stats and item independent damage on top of mobility similar but not equivalent to Kalista. This is why they were such colossal shitlords before being kneecapped, and why Kalista isn't so much. The only free stat she gets is her max HP percent damage proc. Everything else is keyed off her farm level. No, by nature of Runaan's builds dealing auto attack damage spread over multiple targets she is not an ADC vs ADC duelist at even gold values. Obviously that's not her thing, but you're missing the point. Her support synergies and small skirmishes/team fights can look kind of insane whether it's on paper or in recent games where people are just testing the water. She can be an absurdly safe team fighter if played optimally to the point where she can hit that ADC she couldn't beat in a duel, in theory at a leisurely range of 925 units. Further than an ulting Twitch. If poo poo like this sounds devoid of comeback potential to you, I'm lost. Yes, she has a passive/active in her E and yes, it has great scaling. It's a steroid as much as anything else. An insanely strong one in a variety of situations that are very unconventional for a League ADC. 85% of her power budget for something you don't even consider a steroid? That's generous.
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Feb 1, 2015 11:25
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Ihki posted:No, by nature of Runaan's builds dealing auto attack damage spread over multiple targets she is not an ADC vs ADC duelist at even gold values. Obviously that's not her thing, but you're missing the point. Her support synergies and small skirmishes/team fights can look kind of insane whether it's on paper or in recent games where people are just testing the water. She can be an absurdly safe team fighter if played optimally to the point where she can hit that ADC she couldn't beat in a duel, in theory at a leisurely range of 925 units. Further than an ulting Twitch. If poo poo like this sounds devoid of comeback potential to you, I'm lost. You can call it a steroid if you want, but you can't deny that it doesn't boost any stats, that it doesn't provide a tangible statistical advantage per hit, and that it's also heavily backloaded, with a bigger payoff keyed to attacking more that is calculated at the 'end' of the attack chain. And it's most certainly where the bulk of her ability to do damage is located. It has much more in common with Tristana's new explosive shot than with something like Draven's Blood Rush, wouldn't you agree? PS: Also, what makes you think she can hit a target from 925 units away? I can't even tell where that math's coming from because not even Runaan's splash damage helps extend a 550 attack range 375 units. The only thing on her kit that could possibly have that range is the execute...and it requires you to get into auto range anyways, so you won't ever outrange an Ashe or Cait, much less an ulting Twitch. Fake Edit: Also, Kalista is actually an incredible duelist IF she's ahead. Rend multiplies her attack damage by 30% plus bases, which is why she seems so crushingly powerful when she snowballs. No other ADC gets to multiply their attack damage like they're Zed, even if it's an amazingly awkward, rather delayed way, and thus she keeps them down really really hard. When Kalista's AD is insufficient for the period of the game she's at, she's absolutely hosed.
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Feb 1, 2015 12:08
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Transient People posted:You can call it a steroid if you want, but you can't deny that it doesn't boost any stats, that it doesn't provide a tangible statistical advantage per hit, and that it's also heavily backloaded, with a bigger payoff keyed to attacking more that is calculated at the 'end' of the attack chain. And it's most certainly where the bulk of her ability to do damage is located. It has much more in common with Tristana's new explosive shot than with something like Draven's Blood Rush, wouldn't you agree? Sure it does, 20...60dmg+60%AD on the first hit, 10...32+30%AD on every one after that. It literally gives you extra damage for every single auto attack of yours by an amount that is primarily a percentage of your attack damage. It has no cap. You trigger it by pressing a button and if timed optimally, you can keep using it for every target you engage. What do you call that? 'And Runaan's can hit exactly 375 range away from its user's locked target, that would've been quite easy to confirm by googling it. e: Also Rend has a range of 1000, which is a bit further than Runaan's multitargeting goes. Not sure if you can even activate rends a bit farther away than that, by having at least one valid target inside the radius, but think there might've been that too. I've run into these weird discussions before like when I recall you were saying minion/monster damage was the most important dragon buff before the 5th. No offense meant to a regular contributor to the thread, but maybe I'll just quit engaging from here on out. Ihki fucked around with this message at 12:33 on Feb 1, 2015 |
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Feb 1, 2015 12:19
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Libertine posted:Piglet was getting chunked by Sneaky because he wasn't running masteries. It's hard to say anything definitive about that game given that. Uh, what? I don't think 30 health and 2 flat damage reduction would have stopped sneaky knocking 60% of his health off in one trade. It might have stopped him trading back well, maybe, but adc masteries don't mitigate much damage.
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Feb 1, 2015 15:53
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Honestly, I don't think the great Korean buyout is going to work out too well for most of the teams. Communication barriers will end up being more of a detriment than raw mechanics end up being a boon, especially since the regions are mostly closing in on each other on that front. I'm sure in a few weeks most of them will be perfectly fine, but they won't be the magic bullet to the top of the standings a lot of teams hope they will be.
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Feb 1, 2015 15:55
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Taciturn Tactician posted:Uh, what? I don't think 30 health and 2 flat damage reduction would have stopped sneaky knocking 60% of his health off in one trade. It might have stopped him trading back well, maybe, but adc masteries don't mitigate much damage. I'm sure that if he had masteries then he would've played differently.
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Feb 1, 2015 16:04
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CODChimera posted:I'm sure that if he had masteries then he would've played differently. Except he apparently didn't notice until after the match.
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Feb 1, 2015 16:16
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Taciturn Tactician posted:Except he apparently didn't notice until after the match. Oh really? Where did you see that? I would've assumed he'd notice early on when trying to CS.
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Feb 1, 2015 16:19
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Taciturn Tactician posted:Except he apparently didn't notice until after the match. Even I can notice when I don't have masteries on and I'm awful, I find that very hard to believe.
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Feb 1, 2015 16:21
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Weren't there rumours that Liquid was trying to get Forgiven ? It's likely Forgiven decided to go with SK himself but if Liquid had the choice between Piglet and Forgiven I can't see how Piglet is the better option assuming Piglet was more expensive and came with a language barrier. They've both been great ADC's in the past but Piglet had two splits of above average performance at best compared to Forgiven simply being out of the scene for a split.
Savage Cracker fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Feb 1, 2015 |
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Feb 1, 2015 16:25
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CODChimera posted:Oh really? Where did you see that? I mean, I don't know for sure, but he didn't communicate it to any officials as said earlier in the thread, and the screenshot on his tweet is him after another game, presumably solo-queue, and him checking the match details of C9 vs Liquid online. Presumably he was reviewing it to check something and noticed then. Otherwise I can't imagine why he'd play a soloqueue game before tweeting it. E: he tweets "sorry" right after the game, and then four hours later "omg" and then "omg my masteries were 0/0/0"
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Feb 1, 2015 16:26
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Savage Cracker posted:Weren't there rumours that Liquid was trying to get Forgiven? They weren't rumours, Forgiven was going to join until the former Curse decided to skip on him for Piglet.
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Feb 1, 2015 16:27
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Ihki posted:They weren't rumours, Forgiven was going to join until the former Curse decided to skip on him for Piglet. Well I guess it was the same team that decided to get Edward so
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Feb 1, 2015 16:31
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