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Jesus christ you goons, the whole point was that they were both flawed people. Misaki has done both good and bad in her life, whereas Yousuke has done little beyond reject the understanding of others. Misaki wasn't trying to exploit her family for personal gain, she was doing everything within her power as a single mother to provide for 5 kids. Not very well, she neglected the youngest at times, but she was probably expecting the older, high-school aged kids to take over for her. Nevertheless, Decim judged Misaki slightly more flawed than Yousuke, and under these rules, it's voidtime for her. Just like episode 1, neither person really deserved punishment, but they're dead, so the point is moot. Besides, reincarnation is still death, Misaki's family now no longer has a mother, and Yousuke's father and stepmother have now lost a son. It's not like either would ever rejoin their families. It doesn't matter if I get reincarnated or voided, either way, the person called "me" disappears from the earth forever. The only real outcome of these death games is whether or not a soul that could have a positive impact on the surfaceworld is returned there.
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Jan 31, 2015 11:44
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AnacondaHL posted:On another hand, perhaps they want us to interpret things more nihilistically rather than with a Buddhist view. The show isn't using the Buddhist term "kuu" but rather "kyomu", a more generalized term for nothingness or infinite empty space. If they want us to see it nihilistically, they sure go over board with putting lotuses everywhere. The old man who will finally appear next episode even has a pink lotus beard and hair. Pink lotuses represent Buddha. Lurking Haro fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Jan 31, 2015 |
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Jan 31, 2015 13:37
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Sakurazuka posted:Like I said if it does turn out that this is true I'll go back to it but for now I remain extremely unconvinced. 
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Jan 31, 2015 14:27
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I think her greatest sin and perhaps why she got voided is that she is quick to punish others in a manner similar to how she was treated throughout her life. She hits her assistant in such a way that almost perfectly mirrors the way she was abused by her boyfriends, she attempts to murder the guy that's about to win a game she had already manipulated him to lose once before. It makes sense to me that her nature is murkier than the guy who realizes his sin. She is not pure evil or anything, and I don't doubt her love for her children and desire to survive an unfair life, but again like the husband from the first episode there is something intrinsic in their thinking that prevents them from being able to find happiness. It's not about good or evil, it seems more about their psychology and ability to cope with circumstance. The games bring out these mechanisms in quick short-form, rather than the long-form version that was their lives.
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Jan 31, 2015 14:46
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Like we discussed earlier, their pre-death decisions probably have zero influence on the outcome, that's the whole point of being taken to Queendecim. If we go by Decim's words, they need to force people into extreme conditions to see how they behave in that one specific situation and decide by that. Smashing someone's head in is not a very nice thing to do, besides she said she had no regrets. Seems like something a not very mentally healthy person would do. She seemed like a parent that tries to avoid responsibility so she can live her own life. We don't know the circumstances, but how exactly do you get to have 5 kids before realizing you actually didn't want any?
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Jan 31, 2015 17:16
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The kid in Death Billiards attacked the old man and still got reincarnated. We're still be missing if the way Decim is judging is the "right" way that Nona wants him to. Looking back at the elevator scenes, I think that whether or not the lady in black is with Decim at the elevator seeing the players off shows whether Decim decided correctly. It seems like a weird detail to leave out unintentionally.
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Jan 31, 2015 17:38
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lordfrikk posted:Like we discussed earlier, their pre-death decisions probably have zero influence on the outcome, that's the whole point of being taken to Queendecim. If we go by Decim's words, they need to force people into extreme conditions to see how they behave in that one specific situation and decide by that. Smashing someone's head in is not a very nice thing to do, besides she said she had no regrets. Seems like something a not very mentally healthy person would do. By falling in love with abusive men in a vain hope that things will change.
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Jan 31, 2015 19:02
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The part I think really sucks is that the judgment comes right after they're both bawling their eyes out and having a big group hug with Decim.Neeksy posted:I think her greatest sin and perhaps why she got voided is that she is quick to punish others in a manner similar to how she was treated throughout her life. She hits her assistant in such a way that almost perfectly mirrors the way she was abused by her boyfriends, she attempts to murder the guy that's about to win a game she had already manipulated him to lose once before. Yeah that's my beef with the judgment; she's done lovely things in her life with a lack of remorse that didn't help, but she's also directly a product of her environment, and I don't think she was so irredeemably awful that she deserved going down the karmic toilet. The sort of stuff she was doing is stuff you can fix by getting a therapist, you know? That said I can't wait for the inevitable episode where both players get voided, since we already had a really good episode with both players getting reincarnated.
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Jan 31, 2015 19:41
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tlarn posted:Yeah that's my beef with the judgment; she's done lovely things in her life with a lack of remorse that didn't help, but she's also directly a product of her environment, and I don't think she was so irredeemably awful that she deserved going down the karmic toilet. The sort of stuff she was doing is stuff you can fix by getting a therapist, you know? Everyone is influenced by their environment, if that's an excuse that acts as a get out of jail free card then there's no point in having a judgment in the first place.
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Jan 31, 2015 21:21
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Well next episode looks like it will finally introduce some of the characters in the intro, so maybe we will get more insight into the why's and how's of the thing.
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Jan 31, 2015 21:23
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I was surprised to find this was not a noitamina show.
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Feb 1, 2015 01:27
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Noitamina is now but a shadow of its former glory.
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Feb 1, 2015 02:00
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Well, it still has Your Lie in April so it's half there. The upcoming stuff Noitamina has announced for 2015 sound interesting anyways and aren't light novel garbage. On the other hand, Punchline isn't giving me any confidence either so I'm just going to assume they'll have one good show and one bad show in their time slot most of the time.
Allarion fucked around with this message at 03:45 on Feb 1, 2015 |
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Feb 1, 2015 03:40
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Wow that was intense, easily the best ep so far. For me, anyway
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Feb 1, 2015 07:33
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I don't really know squat about eastern style religion, but I get the feeling that Reincarnation/The Void is not as clear cut as "YOU GO HERE IF YOU'RE GOOD AND HERE IF YOURE' BAD." I kind of get the feeling that a large part of what's going on is sort of... completion of a personal arc. In the first episode, my impression was the wife had resolved to cheese the insecure, panicky husband off so that he'd be less of a nattering baby about the state of their lives/deaths. This time, suicide boy was like "nooo why am i such a weenie" while Misaki, although very angry about having been torn away from her life when it seemed to have turned around, seemed to understand that she was dead, and why. So in both cases, you have the emotional wreck dude who is being a floppy sadsack getting sent off to be reincarnated, whereas the woman has come to grips with the situation on some level, is not. It's worth noting that, at least from what we've seen, there is no third option. As far as we know, there's no paradise to head off to. You either start over or you're done. And I think that's what the two ladies from Episode 1 and 4 had in common; they were done. On some ambiguous emotional/spiritual level, they had reached some kind of endpoint. You can contrast this with the couple from episode 3, who both seemed to have a sentiment of "I wish I could do that again, only successfully this time." And even if that's not really true, that may be the criteria that Decim is making his decisions on, and not just "well he was nice, and she was mean." If you see the void option as being removed from the strife that the cycle of life can hold, maybe you'd WANT to return to nothing after having been killed by your paranoid jealous husband/having gone through a string of abusive relationships and ending up with several resentful children you didn't want I dunno, this could all be proven to be a bunch of hooey in time, but nothing about the show is giving me the impression that the message is "THIS BITCH IS GOING TO HELL CUZ SHE'S A WHORE AND SMASHED THAT NERD'S HEAD THROUGH A CRT"
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Feb 1, 2015 14:46
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The problem was that in EP1-2 we assume that her being sent to void was the wrong decision. And although Nameless and Decim might have sent the guy back to re-incarnation regardless because they thought it was a simple misunderstanding, Nona would probably have voided him anyways. Taking what Nona mentions in EP2, I think the key element between EP1 guy and EP4 gal is that they both would have an incredibly hard time trying to find happiness if they were reincarnated. They want happiness badly but their personalities are just I'll fitted to actually attain it in any way other than fleeting. So then being voided isn't a punishment, but rather a type of mercy. Breaking free of samsara is an incredibly difficult thing to do, it could require multiple lives worth of meditation and introspection to actually liberate yourself from it. Its something thats just not attainable by the vast majority of souls. So having entities that decide that "You've had enough" is actually an incredibly positive outcome on what would be an extremely nihilistic universe.
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Feb 1, 2015 15:42
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I feel like the show is deliberately avoiding showing how judgements are reached in order to prompt the viewer to ponder whether or not the right choices were made. That may be giving it too much credit, though.
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Feb 1, 2015 16:08
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I think whether the show ends up being good or bad depends solely on what's going to come in the future episodes. If they reveal something interesting about what's going on behind the scenes or provide explanations to some of the unknowns, it might end up being really good. If they just keep up the monster-of-the-week format without giving us any overarching story it'll be a lot of wasted potential, especially since they showed us in the second episode that there is something going on.
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Feb 1, 2015 16:19
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Personally, I take the whole judgement thing with a grain of salt. This is all total and complete fantasy on what actually happens in the afterlife. I'm not sure whether the intent is to show that Decim and crew are fallible and prone to mis-judgements, but I suspect that's the case and why no-name-woman is part of the party now. I simply find the episodes fairly entertaining and somewhat thought provoking, but I'm not going to let the supposed end-result for each life get me all upset. For one, I really don't understand at all why the guy in this last episode committed suicide. The story doesn't support his decision to make this choice by what they show of his past life. The story does indicate that he wonders the same thing himself -- after he did it. Hence, maybe that was the whole point. Not only are we wondering, but he is too. The problem I have with that is while the idea is touched on, the issue isn't ever really resolved. Again, maybe that's the thing they want to get across -- sometimes things will never be fully understood? Don't know. With that said, I think the general gist of a good philosophy can be garnered from both Death Parade and Durarara II --> Don't mess with the guy dressed in the bartender's outfit.
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Feb 1, 2015 16:42
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Dan7el posted:For one, I really don't understand at all why the guy in this last episode committed suicide. Cao Ni Ma fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Feb 1, 2015 |
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Feb 1, 2015 16:57
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Also, he'd been traumatised by an abusive mother, so when his dad's new wife said she wanted to be his mother he... reacted poorly. No, it wasn't a remotely rational decision, but he was, psychologically speaking, a pretty messed-up dude.
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Feb 1, 2015 18:45
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I didn't really like the episode, mostly because I feel like the show should be moving on by now. Episode 2 was a necessary retread and 3 worked as a palate cleanser, but I didn't gain anything from this episode (except a mild dislike of Decim). The games and judgments lose their impact because even though they're telling different stories, it's always the same framework and pacing. Next episode doesn't look like a judgment so I'm sure it'll be better, but with a short series like this I get wary over "wasted" episodes like this one.
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Feb 1, 2015 19:00
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A question I had was why did nameless woman get so uppity about Decim's joystick popper? He's just doing his job.
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Feb 1, 2015 19:14
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OnimaruXLR posted:It's worth noting that, at least from what we've seen, there is no third option. There is a third option, or outcome: you become part of the system. They haven't revealed the exact mechanics of how it works, but it's part of the reason why the Newbie character was even introduced.
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Feb 1, 2015 19:15
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AnacondaHL posted:There is a third option, or outcome: you become part of the system. They haven't revealed the exact mechanics of how it works, but it's part of the reason why the Newbie character was even introduced. I think they explained that not everyone goes through the game, only those who die at the same moment. Nameless could be someone who died without going through the game and they bring her in because she was a psychologist or someone with a lot of empathy to balance with sperglord.
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Feb 1, 2015 19:55
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ANN's Zac Bertschy has an interesting writeup on this episode.
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Feb 1, 2015 20:25
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Cao Ni Ma posted:The problem was that in EP1-2 we assume that her being sent to void was the wrong decision. And although Nameless and Decim might have sent the guy back to re-incarnation regardless because they thought it was a simple misunderstanding, Nona would probably have voided him anyways. In this episode I think he decided that the woman had a personality that inevitably caused her to repeatedly do rash things she later regretted (in terms of her relationship, children, and violent outbursts) and that therefore it was unlikely she'd be able to find happiness in another life, much like the super-paranoid guy in episode 1 that Decim mistakenly sent for reincarnation. The otaku also did something rash (his own suicide) which seems similar at first, but his actions in the game suggested that it was a result of the depression he was suffering from rather than something he would necessarily do again, so he was sent to be reincarnated.
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Feb 2, 2015 00:22
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Huragok posted:A question I had was why did nameless woman get so uppity about Decim's joystick popper? He's just doing his job. She felt he was intentionally introducing conflict (which he was), but didn't appreciate the value of such a move to dredge hidden depths. Thats why she kinda goes quiet after the mother smashes Yousuke's head into the monitor, because it effectively proved Decim right.
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Feb 2, 2015 03:10
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I agree. We haven't seen anything to suggest that Decim cares about human morality (he's watched people being violently attacked twice without reacting, and in one case sent that person on to be reincarnated). Really all he's shown to the players of his game is sympathy. Ending your consciousness may be better than being sent back to live another miserable life. I disagree with this completely, I saw the episode as countering Nona's opinion that certain people will inevitably repeat the same patterns. She was shown to be a product of her environment. The earliest flashback showed her as a normal teen who became who she was by the abuse that she suffered, just as the otaku did. You could flip the personality argument for the otaku, that he will always be prone to being depressed and suicidal. The episode ends with Decim contemplating the broken tool that he justified as "necessary", he's a flawed arbiter, judging flawed people in a flawed system. Would he have made the same decision if she were matched against a different person, if it were a different game, if he had intervened differently? edit: Regarding above, Onna didn't go quiet after he used the popper on the woman, she called it bullshit and broke the drat thing. Yak of Wrath fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 04:11
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Yak of Wrath posted:I disagree with this completely, I saw the episode as countering Nona's opinion that certain people will inevitably repeat the same patterns. She was shown to be a product of her environment. The earliest flashback showed her as a normal teen who became who she was by the abuse that she suffered, just as the otaku did. You could flip the personality argument for the otaku, that he will always be prone to being depressed and suicidal. How much can you blame her enviroment though? We saw one flashback of her as "normal", with the rest either showing her in lovely situations, or being lovely. Its not to say shes the worst person on earth, but shes not blameless in what she does. The otaku had a much more reasonable chain of events. He was abused by his mother, and then his step-mother/father's new wife said she wanted to be called his mother. He either misunderstood this and thought she wanted to be like his mother (I.e. abusive) or was already in the throes of depression and so couldn't see anything positive or good about the situation. Ultimately, he commited suicide due to his depression, where the actress was straight up murdered by her agent, which by all appearances was the end of a long, very possibly abusive professional relationship.
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Feb 2, 2015 04:16
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Conot posted:How much can you blame her enviroment though? We saw one flashback of her as "normal", with the rest either showing her in lovely situations, or being lovely. Its not to say shes the worst person on earth, but shes not blameless in what she does. She's not entirely blameless, but it's heavily implied that she never got out of that lovely environment either, since being in low-income hell tends to be a vicious cycle. Like she gets knocked up and we can only presume she has no family support from that point forward, since next we her as a hostess to support her child, where she gets knocked up more and never finds someone to help support her. It's a lovely cycle all around where her bad decisions as a teenager hosed up the rest of her life, which tends to make people cynical and unpleasant.
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Feb 2, 2015 04:26
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Yak of Wrath posted:I disagree with this completely, I saw the episode as countering Nona's opinion that certain people will inevitably repeat the same patterns. She was shown to be a product of her environment. The earliest flashback showed her as a normal teen who became who she was by the abuse that she suffered, just as the otaku did. You could flip the personality argument for the otaku, that he will always be prone to being depressed and suicidal.
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Feb 2, 2015 04:32
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I thought the preview for the latest episode had potential but fell flat in execution. Not a fan of the whore/Madonna complex going on here for Misaki and I do feel pity for the guy it's mostly well now that's unfortunate. From the flashbacks I had a sense it was beyond just his parent's divorce as he looked to be isolated and unhappy in HS/society. It felt like a failure on his parent's fault who neglected him by not taking him to therapy or pretty much asking him what's wrong at the time. Yeah, I know MDD is a pain and don't ask me how. There's only so much family can do in that situation but I got a sense maybe his father just re-married w/o talking it through with his son. I can't say if his new step-mother helped or not since it's mostly about his own POV. Although, I know some viewers have demonized Misaki but her story felt more like a tragedy due to bad timing, wrong people, and general unfairness of life. It's odd she had 5 children but I think at one point even for a minute she did like her children even if it's fleeting. Even if you boss is a terrible person MURDER is never the right answer. Alder fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 04:33
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Conot posted:How much can you blame her enviroment though? We saw one flashback of her as "normal", with the rest either showing her in lovely situations, or being lovely. Its not to say shes the worst person on earth, but shes not blameless in what she does. She absolutely isn't blameless, she was a deeply flawed person, but her "darkness" isn't an inherent trait but from trauma. As you note the otaku is shown to be more "reasonable", and she was weighed against him and found wanting, if her opponent was comparatively worse would she have been voided? The show made a deliberate effort to portray her as sympathetic and penitent, so that people would question her fate. I feel it is inviting you to judge the system and those who run it more so than the people who play the game. Edit: On countering; it isn't countered by her judgement, but her portrayal. Nona believed Decim and Onna were wrong about Takashi because the "darkness", the jealousy that lead to Takashi's death was inherent and that it would be repeated in his next life. The portrayal of the two in this episode wasn't of an inherently abusive person, or an inherently suicidal person. Would you say that the assistant's soul carries the inherent "darkness" to murder? Yak of Wrath fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 05:05
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That's the other thing I found interesting, was how when she was crying how it was unfair just like how her life was unfair, Decim completely acknowledged that it was unfair and that the game was stacked against her. The games in general are biased against people who assume the worst since they don't know they're gonna be judged, they only know that their lives are at stake and the price for losing is seemingly death, and people are always gonna struggle if they're competing against a stranger with their lives on the line unless they're some complete saint. Misaki will of course assume the worst because her entire life has been a chain of bad decisions. The cooldown hug was also interesting just because it's one of the few moments of empathy from Decim which could be interpreted "You did the best you could" for Misaki while for the nerd it was more "You have done well in understanding and remembering." Decim said back in Death Billiards that he has a deep respect for those who strive to live when he gave a cooldown hug there too. Mostly interesting food for thought to ponder, but it could lead to an interpretation that Void is sort of the final rest for those whose souls have been too broken down by the world to be able to return to it whole, or who did all they could accomplish, while reincarnation is for those who still have things they want to do. At the moment though, void is being presented as the negative outcome but we'll see as the story goes on.
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Feb 2, 2015 05:54
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While I don't think Misaki really deserved being voided, she's definitely the worse of the two just because her abusive behavior must have hurt quite a few people over the years. I imagine the misgivings most people have toward the verdict is that she looked like she have the capability to change into a better person given the chance. I do think Misaki actually loved her children. I don't think we ever saw her beating any of them, and the implication is that each of the five was from a different man, and she kept them all (instead of giving them away to be raised by another). I assume the disgusted look of the children was because of her self-absorbedness and willingness to exploit them for fame, but I get the feeling she only wanted to provide the best for them, and that requires money. I like the dichotomy of this episode: On one side, a woman who never knew love; On the other, a guy who rejected love (and broke down when he realized a mother would ram someone's head through an arcade monitor if it gets her back to kids that don't even like her) Another thing I liked: Misaki's final look of defiance as the elevator door closes.
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Feb 2, 2015 07:28
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Allarion posted:That's the other thing I found interesting, was how when she was crying how it was unfair just like how her life was unfair, Decim completely acknowledged that it was unfair and that the game was stacked against her. The games in general are biased against people who assume the worst since they don't know they're gonna be judged, they only know that their lives are at stake and the price for losing is seemingly death, and people are always gonna struggle if they're competing against a stranger with their lives on the line unless they're some complete saint. Misaki will of course assume the worst because her entire life has been a chain of bad decisions. The cooldown hug was also interesting just because it's one of the few moments of empathy from Decim which could be interpreted "You did the best you could" for Misaki while for the nerd it was more "You have done well in understanding and remembering." Decim said back in Death Billiards that he has a deep respect for those who strive to live when he gave a cooldown hug there too. Yeah, I think this is pretty close to my interpretation as well. Although what I'd say is that while she was definitely a victim of circumstance, she at the same time wasn't able to sympathize with others in similar situations (vs. nerd and vs. her assistant). I think the show was very progressive in that it seemingly portrays her sin/issue as less that she kept getting stuck in abusive relationships and having kids out of wedlock, but the fact that her instinct on an interpersonal level was to channel that unfairness outwards and blame others. The otaku, on the other hand, took his unfair situation and pushed it inwards into himself, and his own revelation that he had hurt someone who wanted to help/love him is probably what ended up getting him reincarnated.
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Feb 2, 2015 07:39
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You're not supposed to end up at Queendecim. They state so in the opening it's a fluke that happens when two people die at the same time, so they have to compete to be judged. You also aren't voided or reincarnated based on your past actions, but what you do here in Queendecim. So she wasn't voided for being abusive to other people, to the point she pushed someone to kill her, but how she played. Decim takes these actions at face value, as we learned in episode 2 when he took the wife's statement for what she said, and not for why she was saying it. I think people complaining about the black and white judgement of the show need to realize, these people are being judged by a character explicitly stated and recognized by himself to not be human, and has already admitted to mistakes in his judgement. Queendecim is not the afterlife everyone receives, it's the one these people who died at the same time got stuck with. If there's one thing to take away from the show it's that life isn't fair, and neither is death.
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Feb 2, 2015 08:35
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DrPaper posted:If there's one thing to take away from the show it's that life isn't fair, and neither is death. Well there's the thread title to go with the anime title.
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Feb 2, 2015 09:19
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Yup, a good summary. I really like the various interpretations because they show me other perspectives and how it's easy for me to judge people even though I'd probably show more leniency if it was actually happening in real life. Funny thing, that.
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Feb 2, 2015 13:00
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