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Anosmoman posted:Jesus christ the naturalistic fallacy is becoming more and more like a religion or cult. Well, like religion, it offers nice and simple answers to complex problems. Naturopaths always insist that big pharma doesn't want people to know about natural remedies because "there's no money in nature" but that seems pretty ridiculous to me. I mean, there are a ton of massive industries that sell products people could easily grow in their backyard. Growing plants is probably cheaper than synthesizing new drugs.
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Feb 1, 2015 15:40
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OwlFancier posted:It does when that group are idiot teenagers. Assuming that is what "millenial" means. Wikipedia posted:There are no precise dates when the generation starts and ends. Researchers and commentators use birth years ranging from the early 1980s to the early 2000s. So, as potentially broad as the entire 15-34 demographic.
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Feb 1, 2015 16:56
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Ratoslov posted:So, as potentially broad as the entire 15-34 demographic. Most of the people posting "Millenials are loving retarded" probably fall within that demographic without realizing it. 
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Feb 1, 2015 17:22
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Elderbean posted:Naturopaths always insist that big pharma doesn't want people to know about natural remedies because "there's no money in nature" but that seems pretty ridiculous to me. I mean, there are a ton of massive industries that sell products people could easily grow in their backyard. Yeah basically. Looking around the pharmacy, there's tons of natural remedy crap sold by big pharma, because it turns out you can save a ton on R&D and manufacturing by slapping a the name of a plant on a bottle of sugar pills with "these claims have not been evaluated by the FDA" printed below it.
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Feb 1, 2015 17:25
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Oh, torpedan. You're adorable. I have zero interest in convincing anti-vaxxers that they are wrong. I likewise have no interest in being nice to them, or even slightly beating around the bush. They are all idiots, by definition. It's done, it's over, they're hopeless, they've bought into a broken, shithead ideology that it will be effectively impossible to pull them out of. They defy logic from top to bottom, ignore data for gut feels, and eschew any hint of critically approaching the world, so good luck convincing them with logic. It does not matter whether you package that with soothing coos and pats on the head or not. It is more helpful to berate them and make it obvious to the rest of the world that they are dangerous lunatics, and leave them and their victims to be stupid on into eternity. Instead, we should be focusing effort on science literacy in the general population, and especially in K-12 education, so that people don't fall into these hosed-up worldviews where they distrust all research and medicine.
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Feb 1, 2015 17:41
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Ratoslov posted:So, as potentially broad as the entire 15-34 demographic. The poll that kicked this off was using 18-29 year-olds as the group criteria. disheveled posted:Oh, torpedan. You're adorable. I have zero interest in convincing anti-vaxxers that they are wrong. I likewise have no interest in being nice to them, or even slightly beating around the bush. They are all idiots, by definition. It's done, it's over, they're hopeless, they've bought into a broken, shithead ideology that it will be effectively impossible to pull them out of. They defy logic from top to bottom, ignore data for gut feels, and eschew any hint of critically approaching the world, so good luck convincing them with logic. It does not matter whether you package that with soothing coos and pats on the head or not. It is more helpful to berate them and make it obvious to the rest of the world that they are dangerous lunatics, and leave them and their victims to be stupid on into eternity. What made it sound so dumb to me was that he was acting as if an offhand, obviously exaggerated throwaway post on an SA thread without any vaccine skeptics was somehow a part of the persuasive discourse we were trying to leverage. I mean, I'm Captain Tone Argument and I still don't have any problem with calling it stupid (plus I'm a millenial and, um, yes, accurate, like all generations). I do think it's worthwhile to try to persuade/reverse vaccine skeptics (if only for the sake of their families), and I can attest that it is possible, although the range of options is pretty small, and you usually need to have really high credibility and some specific tools to get them to start doubting naturalistic sources. VitalSigns posted:Yeah basically. Looking around the pharmacy, there's tons of natural remedy crap sold by big pharma, because it turns out you can save a ton on R&D and manufacturing by slapping a the name of a plant on a bottle of sugar pills with "these claims have not been evaluated by the FDA" printed below it. That language is a defining trait of a category of product called a "dietary supplement". The short version is putting that on your product prevents the FDA from having any sort of premarket testing required, and while it technically restricts what you can say the product does on the label, the effective range of claims still available is massive. If you'd like to know more, look up DSHEA, the legislation that created this category, or "structure function claim", the thing dietary supplements can getaway with having on their bottle/box.
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Feb 1, 2015 17:59
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Hey I heard somebody was complaining about millenials being stupid. Shouldn't you complain to the millenials about it, and not us?
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Feb 1, 2015 18:14
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Discendo Vox posted:I do think it's worthwhile to try to persuade/reverse vaccine skeptics (if only for the sake of their families), and I can attest that it is possible, although the range of options is pretty small, and you usually need to have really high credibility and some specific tools to get them to start doubting naturalistic sources. A friend, friend-of-friend, or relative who is at the stage of "asking questions" when the nutters are trying to snare them, sure. I have some personal clout there, in additional to expert knowledge, and of course I'm not going to be an rear end in a top hat to that person. Once they're down the rabbit hole, though, that's it. It's more that if I am going to spend time on outreach, it's sure not going into fighting the general anti-vax mythology by confronting individuals. Anti-vax is just a particularly absurd subset of all the other pseudoscientific naturalistic garbage.
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Feb 1, 2015 18:31
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GreyPowerVan posted:Most of the people posting "Millenials are loving retarded" probably fall within that demographic without realizing it. I don't think anyone thinks every millenial is stupid anyway, and as a millenial, I agree that most people around my age are loving useless and stupid.
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Feb 1, 2015 18:43
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PT6A posted:I don't think anyone thinks every millenial is stupid anyway, and as a millenial, I agree that most people around my age are loving useless and stupid. Well I am a Gen X'er and carrying on the long tradition of each generation  ing about the next one is kinda my responsibility.
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Feb 1, 2015 18:53
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thrakkorzog posted:Wait, what? Where is Wakefield practicing in Austin? I have too much free time, I will happily hold up a sign outside his office saying something to the effect of, "This guy gets rich from dead kids." I would not call it practicing, as he lost the right to do that. He setup a non-profit but I do not know much about it. disheveled posted:Oh, torpedan. You're adorable. I have zero interest in convincing anti-vaxxers that they are wrong. I likewise have no interest in being nice to them, or even slightly beating around the bush. They are all idiots, by definition. It's done, it's over, they're hopeless, they've bought into a broken, shithead ideology that it will be effectively impossible to pull them out of. They defy logic from top to bottom, ignore data for gut feels, and eschew any hint of critically approaching the world, so good luck convincing them with logic. It does not matter whether you package that with soothing coos and pats on the head or not. It is more helpful to berate them and make it obvious to the rest of the world that they are dangerous lunatics, and leave them and their victims to be stupid on into eternity. If the stakes were lower and it was dealing with yet another conspiracy theory, I would be happy to let people live in their own world. I would love to believe berating people would help out as it would make dealing with my sister much easier. Also, I would be totally giddy if the end result of the anti-vaccine movement push a larger educational emphasis on scientific literacy. Discendo Vox posted:What made it sound so dumb to me was that he was acting as if an offhand, obviously exaggerated throwaway post on an SA thread without any vaccine skeptics was somehow a part of the persuasive discourse we were trying to leverage. I mean, I'm Captain Tone Argument and I still don't have any problem with calling it stupid (plus I'm a millenial and, um, yes, accurate, like all generations). Even I think it was all dumb (I was in a bizarre mood last night, stay the course and all.) Genocide Tendency posted:Well I am a Gen X'er and carrying on the long tradition of each generation I sit right on the edge between X and Millennials , so I guess I have to dislike them both equally or just fall into a pit of self loathing?
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Feb 1, 2015 21:34
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There are a lot of smart people and a lot of stupid people now. There were lots of smart people and lots of stupid people in the past. People aren't stupider than ever, technology just makes it easier for stupid people to demonstrate to large groups of people how stupid they are and the extremely rapid population growth over the past couple centuries means that the absolute number of stupid people rises rapidly too even if the proportion stays the same or even shrinks..
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Feb 1, 2015 22:00
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thrakkorzog posted:Wait, what? Where is Wakefield practicing in Austin? I have too much free time, I will happily hold up a sign outside his office saying something to the effect of, "This guy gets rich from dead kids." He's on anti-vax wingnut welfare. Speaks at things and such.
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Feb 2, 2015 00:07
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OwlFancier posted:It does when that group are idiot teenagers. Assuming that is what "millenial" means. "Millenials" usually refers to the group of people who were born around the 1980s, meaning that they'd be 18+ somewhere around the year 2000. Unsurprisingly, it's a dumb label made up by baby boomers and Gen Xers, who we all know were the two dumbest generations in history (these people loving founded the naturalistic movement that led to the pseudoscience nonsense this thread was made to discuss)
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Feb 2, 2015 00:35
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Now if you loving idiots are ready to stop talking about retarded age group generalizations, I'd like to provide a link to The Debunking Handbook. It describes some theories about how attempting to debunk misinformation with evidence frequently backfires, resulting in the belief becoming more entrenched later. quote:To debunk a myth, you often have to mention it - otherwise, how will people know what you’re talking about? However, this makes people more familiar with the myth and hence more likely to accept it as true. Does this mean debunking a myth might actually reinforce it in people’s minds? The document also has a few other theories that might help with myth busting. It suggests that information overkill is bad: quote:Common wisdom is that the more counterarguments you provide, the more successful you’ll be in debunking a myth. It turns out that the opposite can be true. When it comes to refuting misinformation, less can be more. Generating three arguments, for example, can be more successful in reducing misperceptions than generating twelve arguments, which can end up reinforcing the initial misperception. and that indirectly challenging someone's worldview can also backfire badly: quote:This was demonstrated when Republicans who believed Saddam Hussein was linked to the 9/11 terrorist attacks were provided with evidence that there was no link between the two, including a direct quote from President George Bush.11 Only 2% of participants changed their mind (although interestingly, 14% denied that they believed the link in the first place). The vast majority clung to the link between Iraq and 9/11, employing a range of arguments to brush aside the evidence. The most common response was attitude bolstering - bringing supporting facts to mind while ignoring any contrary facts. The process of bringing to the fore supporting facts resulted in strengthening people’s erroneous belief. It ends on a good summary of effective debunking methods. It's only 7 pages (one of which is bibliography), I suggest that anyone who's interested in debunking antivaccination myths or other misinformation should take a look.
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Feb 2, 2015 00:53
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Genocide Tendency posted:Well I am a Gen X'er and carrying on the long tradition of each generation Wait wasn't it Gen X'ers who started this whole anti-vax trend in the early 2000's when millenials were still in high school? Kids today are just following your example.
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Feb 2, 2015 01:09
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VitalSigns posted:Wait wasn't it Gen X'ers who started this whole anti-vax trend in the early 2000's when millenials were still in high school? No the trend started in the early 1990s with Wakefield's faked study and accompanying publicity.
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Feb 2, 2015 01:10
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Why debunk them at all. This is why the government exists. Just use force to change their behavior.
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Feb 2, 2015 03:09
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:Why debunk them at all. This is why the government exists. Just use force to change their behavior. Using force to change behavior causes the fringe to develop an identity and transform into a subculture. These people vote, and if their beliefs can be sold back to them you wind up with charters and the home schooling movement. The best use of state power is to systematically target and remove the actors or groups that act as loci for, or profit from, the continuation of the erroneous beliefs.
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Feb 2, 2015 03:17
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Yeah we should arrest them.
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Feb 2, 2015 03:20
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Discendo Vox posted:Using force to change behavior causes the fringe to develop an identity and transform into a subculture. These people vote, and if their beliefs can be sold back to them you wind up with charters and the home schooling movement. The best use of state power is to systematically target and remove the actors or groups that act as loci for, or profit from, the continuation of the erroneous beliefs. I disagree. Shoring up religious exemptions, restarting programs from the early days of vaccinations to vaccinate kids in school, and other uses of force are the best way to go. The government doesn't need to target individuals, and there will always be crazies on the fringe.
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Feb 2, 2015 03:30
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One of the issues here is that we need to decide as a nation whose rights are more important. However, I think this is kind of an easy case; if I fill a syringe with a disease - any disease at all - and just start randomly injecting people with it you'd agree I did something wrong because that's hosed up. Similarly if I come down with the flu and my first act is to run downtown and vomit all over anybody I can find to try to give them the flu as well once again you'd agree I did something wrong. Intentionally spreading disease it not an OK thing to do. What we're seeing now is that people refusing to vaccinate is causing diseases to spread. But is that on the same level as intentionally spreading them? Negligence is actually covered by law; if I fail to repair something properly and it hurts somebody it's my fault. Is failure to vaccinate on the same level? People are within their rights to refuse medical care or generally do things that only harm themselves. But what if an action harms others? I'll compare that one to drunk driving. It's legal for me, an adult over 21, to get ragingly drunk if I really want to. I can get myself blackout drunk at home however often I want to. However, I cannot legally get ragingly blackout drunk and then drive my car somewhere because that puts others at danger. Vaccines are similar, in a way; do we make it illegal to remain unvaccinated?
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Feb 2, 2015 03:39
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Discendo Vox posted:Using force to change behavior causes the fringe to develop an identity and transform into a subculture. These people vote, and if their beliefs can be sold back to them you wind up with charters and the home schooling movement. The best use of state power is to systematically target and remove the actors or groups that act as loci for, or profit from, the continuation of the erroneous beliefs. My, how direct.
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Feb 2, 2015 06:17
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Discendo Vox posted:Using force to change behavior causes the fringe to develop an identity and transform into a subculture. These people vote, and if their beliefs can be sold back to them you wind up with charters and the home schooling movement. The best use of state power is to systematically target and remove the actors or groups that act as loci for, or profit from, the continuation of the erroneous beliefs. But it also gets the wishy-washy anti-vaxxers to comply once they see it's too much of a goddamn hassle, and this quite literally saves lives. Yeah maybe nothing will ever convince the nutty fringes, but if they react by homeschooling their kids, thus keeping them away from other kids they could infect, then this is A Good Thing.
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Feb 2, 2015 07:09
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We can make home schooled children and private schools require vacinations too. Then the only response is to do it or go crazy bundy ranch style, and that we can solve with JDAM's.
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Feb 2, 2015 09:28
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Didn't we already have this argument?
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Feb 2, 2015 12:58
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QuarkJets posted:"Millenials" usually refers to the group of people who were born around the 1980s, meaning that they'd be 18+ somewhere around the year 2000. Unsurprisingly, it's a dumb label made up by baby boomers and Gen Xers, who we all know were the two dumbest generations in history (these people loving founded the naturalistic movement that led to the pseudoscience nonsense this thread was made to discuss) Meh, I'm kind of a gen X'er, and I'll admit we have a some idiots amongst us. (Seriously Steve from Homeroom is a total douchebag, ignore everything he says.) That said, whatever nasty things you want to say about the Boomers, they actually came of age watching a lot of these horrible diseases in action. Statistically speaking they're the biggest proponents of vaccinations. For example, my mother is a boomer and is pretty good at cleaning and gutting fish, not because she enjoys fishing, but because my grandfather had a fishing shack for the summer vacation that he used to take my mom, my aunt, and my uncle fishing all the time in the summer. My Grandfather really didn't really like fishing and he wasn't particularly good at it. He just had the cabin because Polio tended to spread fastest over the summer, so taking the kids out into the middle of nowhere where they couldn't catch polio was seen as a sound investment. Fishing was just something to keep the kids busy while they didn't get horribly debilitating diseases. thrakkorzog fucked around with this message at 14:59 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 14:32
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My mother and I were just having this conversation the other day. The generation that thinks it's cool to not vaccinate is the generation that never had to see how awful these diseases can be.
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Feb 2, 2015 14:36
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Oh great. 2016 presidential talking point, here we come. http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/02/02/christie-says-parents-should-have-choice-on-vaccinations/?_r=0
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Feb 2, 2015 14:43
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ActusRhesus posted:My mother and I were just having this conversation the other day. The generation that thinks it's cool to not vaccinate is the generation that never had to see how awful these diseases can be. I 100% agree with this. My great grandmother had a whole mess of kids - like 14? and only like 5 survived. My husband's great aunt was actually a midwife and was telling us about how many children she saw die from diseases that have vaccinations now. I wonder if these folks who don't understand the importance of vaccinations didn't have anyone from the pre vaccination generation to explain the horrors of dead babies to them?
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Feb 2, 2015 14:49
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VitalSigns posted:Wait wasn't it Gen X'ers who started this whole anti-vax trend in the early 2000's when millenials were still in high school? Weren't millennials highschoolers in the late 00's? Like '07-'10? I mean, we're all pretty much millennials here on SA, right?
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Feb 2, 2015 14:51
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awesome-express posted:Weren't millennials highschoolers in the late 00's? Like '07-'10? Yep. I graduated high school in 2010 so I definitely am classified as a millenial. I think it's just a rule that 20 somethings all hate ourselves.
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Feb 2, 2015 15:05
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substitute posted:Oh great. 2016 presidential talking point, here we come. I've often thought of Chris Christie as a swinish opportunist, he's really not helping his case here.
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Feb 2, 2015 15:16
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Zeroisanumber posted:I've often thought of Chris Christie as a swinish opportunist, he's really not helping his case here. Yeah, Chris Chistie's biggest strength was that he was a tough Republican in a blue state. Waffling on a no brainer issue like vaccines isn't winning him any votes.
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Feb 2, 2015 15:41
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SedanChair posted:My, how direct. VitalSigns posted:But it also gets the wishy-washy anti-vaxxers to comply once they see it's too much of a goddamn hassle, and this quite literally saves lives. OK, I apologize, I was being too oblique. "targeting and removing" doesn't mean kill- it means defund, license challenge, name and shame the people who are currently profiting from spreading these ideas, because they're a locus of infection for these beliefs. When I say it'll be like homeschooling, I don't mean that vaxxer families will pull their kids out of school- I mean that, like the home schooling movement, you'll give them a cause to rally behind and they'll develop the political clout to produce laws that will make the rest of society adapt to their own belies- which is a part of what happened with charter schools, vouchers and the homeschooling movement. The last thing you want to do is to feed the perception of persecution, because if you do that, they will develop into a stronger movement and political actors will realize that pandering to them gives them a base.
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Feb 2, 2015 15:44
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substitute posted:Oh great. 2016 presidential talking point, here we come. Oh man I hope anti-vax becomes a thing during the primaries  awesome-express posted:Weren't millennials highschoolers in the late 00's? Like '07-'10? Most definitions I've seen go with birthdates from the early 80s until about 2000. I graduated in 2000 but I consider myself a millennial mostly because I'm still in college oh god kill me
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Feb 2, 2015 15:53
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Discendo Vox posted:OK, I apologize, I was being too oblique. "targeting and removing" doesn't mean kill- it means defund, license challenge, name and shame the people who are currently profiting from spreading these ideas, because they're a locus of infection for these beliefs. OK I'll bite. How does defunding, attacking, and shaming not feed the perception of persecution among the followers of these targets, but "No sorry, your child can't attend school without proof that he's not a danger to other children" does?
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Feb 2, 2015 15:59
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I think the most useful definition of Millennial is "world wide web existed during formative years", in which case I'm just about the bleeding early edge of the generation, having been born in 1982 and therefore nearing the end of grade school when the WWW exploded everywhere. But you ask these kids what is Telnet and they look at you like you just asked them for a weasel lightly toasted on ciabatta.
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Feb 2, 2015 16:42
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VitalSigns posted:OK I'll bite. How does defunding, attacking, and shaming not feed the perception of persecution among the followers of these targets, but "No sorry, your child can't attend school without proof that he's not a danger to other children" does? Targeting leader figures only gets reactance from people who were already invested in the movement. Targeting the followers lets them see themselves as victims, which produces a stronger identification with the movement than marketer targeting. More importantly, this turns targeted followers into sympathetic figures to susceptible members of their social network. Additionally, policies targeting a group of people turn that group of people into a demographic that will be sought after by politicians. mdemone posted:I think the most useful definition of Millennial is "world wide web existed during formative years", in which case I'm just about the bleeding early edge of the generation, having been born in 1982 and therefore nearing the end of grade school when the WWW exploded everywhere. The most useful definition of Millennial is people over 1000 years old.
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Feb 2, 2015 17:01
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Soviet Commubot posted:Oh man I hope anti-vax becomes a thing during the primaries I'm a negative person so I image the politicization of this issue just turning into a clusterfuck of: left-wing vs. right-wing, conservative vs. liberal, REAL 'MERICANS vs. COMMIE TERRORISTS. And then we're ALL worse off.
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Feb 2, 2015 17:04
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