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Moryrie posted:But I didn't mention him. xP Kurt came back during Oblivion and has been here ever since. I find the term "convinced" to be amusing.
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Feb 3, 2015 19:41
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Atrayonis posted:...hence why we have an all-nine divines world in Oblivion and Shor and the Nordic pantheon have been completely forgotten in Skyrim. Don't you meet Shor in Sovngarde? And everyone keeps saying "Shor's Bones" like it was going out of style.
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Feb 3, 2015 19:47
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Kirkbride is probably a goon
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Feb 3, 2015 19:52
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Atrayonis posted:Not that the games after Morrowind have been any better, they are just the other extreme. Bethesda is godawful incompetent at implementing their own lore. For example someone high uip in there (not Todd though, supposedly) decided that the religious complexity of Morrowind was a mistake, hence why we have an all-nine divines world in Oblivion and Shor and the Nordic pantheon have been completely forgotten in Skyrim. To be fair, Akatosh himself appearing in the Temple of the One and striking down Mehrunes Dagon to end the greatest threat Tamriel has ever known may have reasonably been expected to cause the Imperial pantheon to surpass the Nordic, especially since the Akatosh equivalent in the Nordic pantheon is more decidedly Evil, and saving the world is certainly Good.
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Feb 3, 2015 19:55
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Col. Roy Campbell posted:Don't you meet Shor in Sovngarde? And everyone keeps saying "Shor's Bones" like it was going out of style. Sky Shadowing posted:To be fair, Akatosh himself appearing in the Temple of the One and striking down Mehrunes Dagon to end the greatest threat Tamriel has ever known may have reasonably been expected to cause the Imperial pantheon to surpass the Nordic, especially since the Akatosh equivalent in the Nordic pantheon is more decidedly Evil, and saving the world is certainly Good. It would have added a lot of more complexities if they even kept the imperalized pantheon and had the Stormcloaks follow the "real" old gods. All the talk about Talos this and that rings pretty shallow in comparison (which is indeed the intended effect).
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Feb 3, 2015 20:23
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Col. Roy Campbell posted:Don't you meet Shor in Sovngarde? And everyone keeps saying "Shor's Bones" like it was going out of style. Shor's referenced a ton, and supposedly lives in Sovngarde (despite being dead), but the dude you meet is Tsun.
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Feb 3, 2015 20:26
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Col. Roy Campbell posted:Don't you meet Shor in Sovngarde? And everyone keeps saying "Shor's Bones" like it was going out of style. You do literally go to Sovngarde and Shor's Mead Hall, but Shor himself isn't there because he thinks that showing himself to a mortal (you) would probably damage them. People also speak about Kyne, since she taught humans about The Thu'um, along with the Kyne's Peace Shout being usable. But the Nordic pantheon was combined with the Aldmeri pantheon by Alessia, becoming the Eight Divines worshipped until Talos ascended and made it Nine.
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Feb 3, 2015 20:28
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An interesting facet of the Dragonborn DLC is that, in one of Kirkbride's older works, he mentions Hermaeus Mora as being related to Akatosh and gives him the title "The Gardener of Men." Now, one of the Dragonborn DLCs uses this title for old Mora for one of the quests, which may confirm that it is viewed as canon. Also, Miraak's plan, judging from the fact that the Black Book you use to enter the area of Apocrypha he lives in mentions mantling and the Godhead, appears to be that he is attempting to make the All-Maker's Stones into Towers, which would allow him to mantle the All-Maker (which would be Akatosh before the Marukhati Selectives broke him into fragments, or Aka-Tusk for short) and thus achieve Amaranth, creating a new world for himself. This theory is explained better in this image.  So if you think about it, the plot of Skyrim is the following: Akatosh, who is also Lorkhan, sends his soul into a human, Miraak, to stop Alduin, who is Akatosh, from destroying the world. Miraak, however, is a lazy gently caress and doesn't do it, instead joining up with Hermaeus Mora, who is left-overs of Akatosh. So centuries later, Akatosh chooses another person to share his soul, the Last Dragonborn, to stop Akatosh from enslaving/devouring mankind because Akatosh is currently serving Akatosh's left-overs instead of Akatosh, and secretly Akatosh is planning to become Akatosh. Luckily for everyone, Akatosh stops Akatosh from achieving his goals.
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Feb 4, 2015 00:53
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SunAndSpring posted:So if you think about it, the plot of Skyrim is the following: Games Workshop ought to hire on Kirkbride to write lore for Tzeentch.
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Feb 4, 2015 01:07
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Col. Roy Campbell posted:Don't you meet Shor in Sovngarde? And everyone keeps saying "Shor's Bones" like it was going out of style. Shor is Lorkhan. Shor's bones are Masser and Secunda. A Nord saying "Shor's bones" is saying the same thing as a khajiit saying "by the twin moons!"
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Feb 4, 2015 01:29
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With the schizophrenic personalities of the gods, you have to remember that belief is very powerful in the elder scrolls setting. That's why the Thalmor are so driven to erase belief in Talos, replacement for the missing god of creation Lorkhan, because by reversing belief in Talos they can effectively unmake the world (which they want to do because they view creation a prison). That's why the world is ending, Skyrim is very much a post apocalyptic setting, with Alduin (who is supposed to end the world so it resets back at the point time begins) coming back and the process of Talos unmantling is beginning. If I had to guess, TESVI will take place with the Stormcloaks winning and the Empire in an even more precarious place with the very fabric of existence at stake. Daggerfall was the last game I can think of where everything turned up "okay" after the actions of the hero.
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Feb 4, 2015 01:55
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Well, Morrowind was an overall win, I mean, if Dagoth Ur had won he would have, at best, infected the entirety of Tamriel with a disease that drives them mad and horribly mishapen while destroying all who oppose him with Akulakhan. At worst, and by MK lore, he would have joined all of Tamriel's intelligence to himself and started the world over with himself in charge of the new Godhead. I mean, yes, the collateral damage of the Red Year was certainly bad, but the alternative is Dagoth Ur wins. Not to mention in Oblivion the alternative is total destruction.
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Feb 4, 2015 02:08
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Atrayonis posted:Not that the games after Morrowind have been any better, they are just the other extreme. Bethesda is godawful incompetent at implementing their own lore. For example someone high uip in there (not Todd though, supposedly) decided that the religious complexity of Morrowind was a mistake, hence why we have an all-nine divines world in Oblivion and Shor and the Nordic pantheon have been completely forgotten in Skyrim. Looks like you missed this quest. Not completely forgotten, but definitely low-key, and I buy Sky Shadowing's reasoning for why that may be.
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Feb 4, 2015 02:09
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Sky Shadowing posted:Well, Morrowind was an overall win, I mean, if Dagoth Ur had won he would have, at best, infected the entirety of Tamriel with a disease that drives them mad and horribly mishapen while destroying all who oppose him with Akulakhan. At worst, and by MK lore, he would have joined all of Tamriel's intelligence to himself and started the world over with himself in charge of the new Godhead. I mean, yes, the collateral damage of the Red Year was certainly bad, but the alternative is Dagoth Ur wins. Oh, I agree. I just meant with regards to how things turn out "officially" for TESVI I expect it to be pretty lovely. You stop Alduin from taking the world over (and maybe in the process gently caress up the kalpic cycles oops) but if I had to guess how everything turns out for everything else it'll be very bad for the Empire and Thalmor are only going to get stronger. Also who is to say Dagoth Ur wasn't right? Your only purpose in Morrowind was to settle a grudge match for Azura, not to actually save the world. It's a shame that the option to side with Dagoth wasnt able to make it into the final game as it had to be cut for time, that would have been interesting.
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Feb 4, 2015 02:19
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So the next TES would be VI, right? And the other continents are different points on the timeline, right? What also has six sides at different times?  TIMECUBE CONFIRMED FOR THE NEXT ELDER SCROLLS SETTING
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Feb 4, 2015 02:28
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Wonder how the Dragon Break idea went over when first suggested. Was it like a "Which ending are we gonna build on?" "ALL OF THEM!!!" scenario? poo poo was pretty drat bold in retrospect. Internet outrcry would've been loving enormous for that kind of poo poo today probably.
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Feb 4, 2015 02:31
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Sky Shadowing posted:Well, Morrowind was an overall win, I mean, if Dagoth Ur had won he would have, at best, infected the entirety of Tamriel with a disease that drives them mad and horribly mishapen while destroying all who oppose him with Akulakhan. At worst, and by MK lore, he would have joined all of Tamriel's intelligence to himself and started the world over with himself in charge of the new Godhead. I mean, yes, the collateral damage of the Red Year was certainly bad, but the alternative is Dagoth Ur wins. It's death by degrees, basically. Amputate the limb to save the body from immediate danger, but what happens when you keep having to amputate?
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Feb 4, 2015 02:39
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Dandywalken posted:Wonder how the Dragon Break idea went over when first suggested. Was it like a "Which ending are we gonna build on?" "ALL OF THEM!!!" scenario? Yeah, I'd be curious about that too. Stuff like the warp in the west and the stuff in Redguard is what really starts to set up TES from other fantasy. Arena was basically a bunch of buddies D&D campaign turned into a video game and daggerfall is a huge expansive game but was still stuff where all the gods are named after the staff and its pretty heavy on standard fantasy tropes. Though I guess the time traveling dwarven cyborg Numidium was a big part of Daggerfall so that weirdness was there even that far back.
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Feb 4, 2015 02:42
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Speaking of which, who created the DnD setting that would become TES anyways?
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Feb 4, 2015 03:04
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The dragon breaks once again and both the stormcloaks and empire win and lose. The United Human and Dunmer states (UHDS) rises in place of the empire in opposition to the Thalmor with Emperor Ulfric and his Empress Elisef ruling from the ruby throne in the Imperial city. In retrospect this is more like what you would get from loving with an elderscroll but whatev Man Whore fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Feb 4, 2015 |
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Feb 4, 2015 03:07
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Superstring posted:Speaking of which, who created the DnD setting that would become TES anyways? Whoever the original team making up Bethesda was, someone more knowledgeable can chime in. As is recounted a lot now it was just supposed to be a game about gladiators in the setting but the side questing ended up being more fun than the arena part so they dropped gladiators but it was too late to really change the promotional title of the game. I think that's a good way to frame elder scrolls lore. I like the more esoteric stuff but I don't think its worth it to really get up in arms Cyrodiil isn't a jungle (for whatever reason) or X hang up. Even Oblivion, once you peer behind the generic coating it got to cater to the LoTR boom at the time still had a lot of weirdness to it below the surface. In the end its a great series that just came out of some dudes rushing an cRPG based on their d&d campaign that they shifted gears halfway through development on.
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Feb 4, 2015 03:25
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Superstring posted:Speaking of which, who created the DnD setting that would become TES anyways? J.R.R. Tolkien 
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Feb 4, 2015 03:56
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LGR made a pretty good overview of Arena and the origins of the series.
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Feb 4, 2015 04:00
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Berke Negri posted:Though I guess the time traveling dwarven cyborg Numidium was a big part of Daggerfall so that weirdness was there even that far back. Daggerfall was much weirder than people gave it credit for. Granted you had to look much harder for the weird , but poo poo like Dirreni (sp?) Tower anything involving Nulfaga, or really any plot dungeon was generally batshit loco.
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Feb 4, 2015 04:32
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Man Whore posted:In retrospect this is more like what you would get from loving with an elderscroll but whatev I'm miffed about the fact that you actually read an Elder Scroll in Skyrim. Their appearance in Oblivion was (barely) okay because you don't actually do anything with them yourself, but actually reading one yourself (productively even!) felt like way too much.
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Feb 4, 2015 05:00
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Yeah, Skyrim really took the allure out of the Scrolls. By the end of Dawnguard you're lousy with them, you're just giving them away. At least you had to earn one in Oblivion instead of people just handing them to you.
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Feb 4, 2015 05:07
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Berke Negri posted:If I had to guess, TESVI will take place with the Stormcloaks winning and the Empire in an even more precarious place with the very fabric of existence at stake. Daggerfall was the last game I can think of where everything turned up "okay" after the actions of the hero. Alternatively, they pull another loving Dragon Break (via the convenient reading of the Elder Scroll at the Time Wound atop the Throat of the World) and do some weird poo poo where Skyrim is essentially independent but still a part of the Empire (a la 2nd Era Morrowind). E: Col. Roy Campbell posted:Yeah, Skyrim really took the allure out of the Scrolls. By the end of Dawnguard you're lousy with them, you're just giving them away. At least you had to earn one in Oblivion instead of people just handing them to you.
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Feb 4, 2015 05:07
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Scyantific posted:gently caress that, you had to endure one of the most brutal parts of the game (Blackreach) to get the first one. The second one I'll give you because PLOT demanded it, and the third one, well no one likes to talk about the third one because gently caress the Soul Cairn I'll admit that going through Blackreach was really cool and weird. Could have used more areas like that in the main game but, oh well.
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Feb 4, 2015 05:20
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I for one like the fact that in the series called Elder Scrolls you actually find and use an Elder Scroll during the main story.
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Feb 4, 2015 05:32
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Wouldn't it kind of make sense, nutty lore-wise, that the Last Dragonborn gets to read an Elder Scroll to stop Alduin? The scrolls themselves have an agenda, so the scroll must have actually willed the Dragonborn to read it at the Throat of the World. After the Oblivion chrisis, the Elder Scrolls scattered from the Imperial Library, and welp a couple of them must have willed themselves to have been stuck with a whiny vampire for ages and another to end up in the worst purple shithole in all of Oblivion.
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Feb 4, 2015 08:18
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Freakazoid_ posted:Looks like you missed this quest. Not completely forgotten, but definitely low-key, and I buy Sky Shadowing's reasoning for why that may be.
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Feb 4, 2015 20:35
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Well I guess its slightly less obtuse than when you meet Tiber Septim in morrowind.
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Feb 4, 2015 21:53
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I didn't realize the Prophet in Knights of the Nine is supposed to be Talos until someone else suggested it. That's my Lorkhan! 
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Feb 4, 2015 22:58
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Scyantific posted:Alternatively, they pull another loving Dragon Break (via the convenient reading of the Elder Scroll at the Time Wound atop the Throat of the World) and do some weird poo poo where Skyrim is essentially independent but still a part of the Empire (a la 2nd Era Morrowind). One way of resolving the events of Skyrim that leaves things open without resorting to a dragon break (even though invoking a dragon break wouldn't be inappropriate) would be to have the Imperials win on every front in the rebellion thanks to Tullius, but have the Empire be unable to put down the Stormcloak rebellion for good because the Dark Brotherhood whacked the Emperor, throwing everythin on its ear
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Feb 5, 2015 00:12
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Wouldn't be too hard to do something like: The Dragonborn uses their influence to negotiate a peace, and both sides come to the table on a more permanent basis than the High Hrothgar Truce. Taking what A.o.D. said, the Empire could 'win' on the battlefield and even kill Ulfric, but between the Emperor's assassination and the general drain on blood and treasure that the war demands, they wouldn't be able to truly pacify Skyrim. As long as the Stormcloak's underlying anger remained, the remnants would still have huge support and be a potent guerrilla force or rump state. Just look at what the Forsworn can manage, now imagine that across the entire province. Neither side can truly win due to other fronts and provinces for the Empire, and insufficient forces for the Stormcloaks. Either could win if the Dragonborn supported them, so we'll say they refuse to participate in the civil war and use their power and influence to broker and enforce a truce. Ulfric's successors wouldn't be acceptable to the Empire as leader of course, but they won't back down from their rebellion without a say in government - so the Empire convinces Elisif to renounce her claims and remain a Jarl, and they convene a moot to elect a new High King. They end up compromising with Baalgruf (though only after a lot of politics from Maven Black-Briar and so on) who has won acclaim for his supporting the Dragonborn. So then Skyrim enjoys some kind of special status where they swear nominal fealty to the Ruby Throne but Talos worship is restored and the province has a fair degree of internal independence - perhaps we say this is the time the Dragonborn went around and did all their side quests and guild stuff - whilst still being expected to supply tithes, corvees, and levies to the Empire. The Empire won't be able to explicitly renounce the Thalmor themselves, and will make a lot of noise about respecting their presence in Skyrim, but will in practice turn a blind eye to the inevitable purge of Thalmor from the High Kingdom. That will soon provoke the Thalmor's ire, but the White-Gold Concordat's Talos stuff and other issues can be resolved simply by saying the next Emperor refuses to abide by that part, or is politically skilled enough to calm Thalmor anger in the short-term. It doesn't need to be explained further than that, because that in itself can be the plot or a plot in the next game. Would fairly neatly lead from Skyrim to VI in a way that sets up a huge conflict, explains what happened to Skyrim with reasonable elegance, and has some nice political ramifications that could help add more depth to the world.
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Feb 5, 2015 03:25
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From what I've read on forums the consensus from people who put way to much effort into arguing about the civil war think that in TES VI we'll probably find out that the war went back and forth multiple times which lead to the deaths of both Tullius and Ulfric. After a peace was secured the Imperials retained control of Skyrim but made concessions to the Nords like re allowing the worship of Talos. Who knows, though. I guess we'll find out in 2 years (maybe).
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Feb 5, 2015 03:27
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Maybe a volcano will explode and it won't matter.
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Feb 5, 2015 03:30
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FutonForensic posted:I didn't realize the Prophet in Knights of the Nine is supposed to be Talos until someone else suggested it. That's my Lorkhan! he and a few other of the 9 show up in morrowind as little morality plays
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Feb 5, 2015 04:16
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Or, we could hear like nothing about Skyrim, because the next game could be in a place where the general opinion on Nords is, "Who cares about those stupid brutes?"
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Feb 5, 2015 14:10
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Moryrie posted:Or, we could hear like nothing about Skyrim, because the next game could be in a place where the general opinion on Nords is, "Who cares about those stupid brutes?" Well, that limits the possibilities down to, uh, all of nirn and oblivion except for Skyrim.
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Feb 5, 2015 14:58
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