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What does it imply?
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Feb 4, 2015 15:25
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That possibly the game isn't limited to what we originally thought it was and that there might be some cool tricks under the hood that make the unviable characters or moves a little bit more viable.
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Feb 4, 2015 15:26
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im still amazed this is such a point of contention for some people. i like melee and smash 4 but i think melee is more mechanically interesting. that's about the high and low of it. i think edge grabbing requires more effort and timing than people are giving it credit for. idk, yall get real mad about melee and you should just play what you like and if you don't like it don't smash your bros that do
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Feb 4, 2015 15:35
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Maleficent posted:im still amazed this is such a point of contention for some people. i like melee and smash 4 but i think melee is more mechanically interesting. that's about the high and low of it. i think edge grabbing requires more effort and timing than people are giving it credit for. idk, yall get real mad about melee and you should just play what you like and if you don't like it don't smash your bros that do Melee has been explored for almost 14 years, people have literally dug through the game data to find stuff about the mechanics. It's unfair to say it's more mechanically interesting right now. As for ledge-grabbing, it can be really cool in competitive play (like a lot of the fights in this year's Apex), where it's timed really well and such, but for most cases I agree with a lot of people here that it's a total buzzkill. You knock someone far enough away and just... hang there. Woop-de-loving-doo, congratulations on your lame win. Smash Bros. should be about smashing people  vvv Even more reason to not disregard Smash 4 just yet vvv Your Computer fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Feb 4, 2015 |
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Feb 4, 2015 15:40
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I just think its especially crazy that 14 years later and after people have mined the disc for mechanics and data, we still find new things.
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Feb 4, 2015 15:46
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How many people have M2K'ings mindset by the way? Because that would certainly stunt 4's growth. He says that he can beat Diddy easy with Sheik but doesn't want to play her cause it'll throw off his melee game which yeah it probably would, but at the same time to me it sounds like nothing will really get found if folks don't want to even try to move on.
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Feb 4, 2015 15:51
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FactsAreUseless posted:The metagame of any competitive game will adapt to every mechanic in the game. That doesn't make all those mechanics good. I agree but I happen to like ledge hogging. Like I said I like gimpy ways of killing people because it's funny to me that it's considered "dishonorable" or "lame" by some people. Some people get really bent out of shape by cape or fludd or other wind boxes for the same reason too. I really want a footstooling gimp kill technique to emerge. :Edit: I also like it for a more positive reason: I like that with it, there is always a threat of dying no matter what % you're at. If you mis-play and get knocked off even at low % it could be fatal. It raises the stakes of every play, instead of the first 60-80% largely not mattering in smash 4 with some exceptions. I guess another way you can look at is you can kill most characters at any %, which to me is pretty exciting. messagemode1 fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Feb 4, 2015 |
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Feb 4, 2015 15:57
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I just back throw > dair gimped a dude at 0% as Ike like 15 minutes ago in FG so the dream is still alive and well friend
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Feb 4, 2015 16:05
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ThisIsACoolGuy posted:How many people have M2K'ings mindset by the way? Because that would certainly stunt 4's growth. Are you referring to avoiding using the same characters between games? I only play Marth in Smash 4 very casually because I cannot break my muscle memory from Melee. I constantly end up missing attacks by a hair because his Melee spacing is so ingrained into me. I doubt I'd apply that same logic to Sheik though since IMO Sheik is a much better character in Smash 4 than Melee due to Bouncing Fish. I don't have the same problem playing Pikachu, though I couldn't really call Pikachu a main for me since Smash 64.
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Feb 4, 2015 16:06
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I definitely do. I can't touch Smash 4 Marth because it destroys my melee Marth. I spent a week playing Samus and my Melee Samus became terrible and I kept going for muscle memory up-b kills, which don't work in Melee. It's the same reason why I don't play Samus in PM, because I become reliant on things that don't work in Melee and despite them feeling similar the skills don't transfer back to Melee. It's why I learned Wolf and Pikachu instead. If anything it's motivated me to learn more about a varied amount of characters rather than just trying to play one the same.
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Feb 4, 2015 16:09
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I tried Smash out at gamestop the other day and I couldn't get over how bulky the controller was. If I do get this game is it worth getting the gamecube controller or do you get used to the bulk?
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Feb 4, 2015 16:13
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Over There posted:I tried Smash out at gamestop the other day and I couldn't get over how bulky the controller was. If I do get this game is it worth getting the gamecube controller or do you get used to the bulk? Do you mean the gamepad? You can use a Wii U Pro Controller and I can't see anyone calling that bulky since it's no bigger than the GC controller and way sleeker. Buy an adapter if you feel more comfortable using a GC controller, though.
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Feb 4, 2015 16:17
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It is not worth the going rate of $100+ for a gamecube adapter and controller unless you plan on breaking that bad boy out every morning. I also have 0 issues with using the gamepad for everything, but I've been fine with it since I first held it so YMMV
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Feb 4, 2015 16:17
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The WiiU controller just seems and feels so obnoxiously big. I can see the use of using the controller screen if you need to take a poo poo or something but other than that, no.
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Feb 4, 2015 16:18
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The pro controller is a really good alternative, but the Wii U gamepad is also a good option. You get used to the bulk pretty quickly.
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Feb 4, 2015 16:19
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TenaciousJ posted:Are you referring to avoiding using the same characters between games? I only play Marth in Smash 4 very casually because I cannot break my muscle memory from Melee. I constantly end up missing attacks by a hair because his Melee spacing is so ingrained into me. I doubt I'd apply that same logic to Sheik though since IMO Sheik is a much better character in Smash 4 than Melee due to Bouncing Fish. Yeah, he's gone on record saying something along the lines of "I could easily win in Smash 4 if I tried to learn Sheik but I don't want to hurt my melee Sheik." As I said it's understandable that logic is fine and I get it, but at the same time it sounds like if people never really try to learn characters they think are the best then nothing is going to really be found out or pushed.
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Feb 4, 2015 16:20
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Another option would be the Wii U Pro controller, which would also have the benefit of working with every other Wii U game (since the USB adapter only works with Smash 4).
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Feb 4, 2015 16:20
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You don't need to use the gamepad with the screen. These exist. You can also use a gamecube controller or wiimote/nunchuk. I think the gamepad is actually really nice because it's big and better on my wrists, but then again I like to play with the PSO keyboard gamecube controller when my hands hurt. edit:  This one
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Feb 4, 2015 16:20
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ThisIsACoolGuy posted:Yeah, he's gone on record saying something along the lines of "I could easily win in Smash 4 if I tried to learn Sheik but I don't want to hurt my melee Sheik." If he thinks he'd win in Smash 4 with Sheik and he's trying to be a pro, he should learn Sheik in Smash 4 because that's where the Nintendo money is going to be in the future.
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Feb 4, 2015 16:28
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laplace posted:edit:  That loving rules.
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Feb 4, 2015 16:33
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It's pretty loving awesome. It works on the Wii U as well, provided you have the adapter.
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Feb 4, 2015 16:33
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TenaciousJ posted:If he thinks he'd win in Smash 4 with Sheik and he's trying to be a pro, he should learn Sheik in Smash 4 because that's where the Nintendo money is going to be in the future.
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Feb 4, 2015 16:39
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Pro smashers sound like whiny babies to me.
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Feb 4, 2015 16:40
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How dare you besmirch the name of the Competitive Powerstone Circuit!
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Feb 4, 2015 16:42
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Cat Machine posted:It seems weird to say "But it would mess up my Sheik in Melee!" while guys like Umehara Daigo play Ryu across ten different Street Fighter games. I agree on principle, though I found it easier to port my SF2 skills to SF4 than to adjust my Marth play from Melee to Brawl or Smash 4.
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Feb 4, 2015 16:47
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It's cuz Street Fighter doesn't have drastically different tech in between games. The good thing about Ryu is that he stays a shoto no matter what games he's in, and while the mechanics slightly change in between games the control between them doesn't really. The speed and such changes but if you can do a 1 frame link in SF3 you can do one in SF4. On the other hand, Smash 4 doesn't really have stuff like L-cancelling or even remotely the same structure or mindgames so they can genuinely get in the way of eachother because what is considered good play in one game is considered bad play in the other, which aside from a few changes isn't really the same in SF. Though, people did complain about being unable to parry in third strike after playing SF4 because they just were out of the mindset/practice. Not to say all SF is the same because they're not, they're significantly different, but the underlying ideologies are the same when they aren't in Smash. Even if you aren't thinking about Smash 4 or Brawl, 64 and Melee are so different that pretty much nothing transfers between the two.
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Feb 4, 2015 16:47
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laplace posted:It's cuz Street Fighter doesn't have drastically different tech in between games. The good thing about Ryu is that he stays a shoto no matter what games he's in, and while the mechanics slightly change in between games the control between them doesn't really. Just wanting to jump in and say 3rd Strike Ryu is a completely different beast then SF4 Ryu and probably has more changes then any one smash character barring Pit from Brawl -> 4
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Feb 4, 2015 16:49
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ThisIsACoolGuy posted:Just wanting to jump in and say 3rd Strike Ryu is a completely different beast then SF4 Ryu and probably has more changes then any one smash character barring Pit from Brawl -> 4 Pretty sure Daigo plays Ken in 3rd Strike anyway.
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Feb 4, 2015 16:50
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TenaciousJ posted:I agree on principle, though I found it easier to port my SF2 skills to SF4 than to adjust my Marth play from Melee to Brawl or Smash 4. Agreed. I was able to knock out opponents with Sheik extremely quickly in Melee, but I had difficulty knocking out a level 3 CPU within 2 minutes when I tired it for the first time.
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Feb 4, 2015 16:50
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The difference between Brawl Sheik and S4 Sheik is huge, not even considering how much bigger that gap is from Melee. They play completely differently and have different tools. The thing with Street Fighter is that you go into it with a relatively consistent control standard and each character, barring differences in gameplay structure, you know how to use Hadokens to zone and Shoryukens for Oki. Parrying and speed changed between games, but their core gameplay stayed similar. What is considered good mindgames in SF3 and SF4 are generally the same, just accomplished differently. Once again I'm not saying all the SF games are the same -- they're not. But it's not the same as Smash, where literally the core function of the mindgames competitively are completely different between games. This only gets more complicated when you consider advanced tech, which requires a lot of practice and consistency and can get screwed up between games. You can't really rely on past experience in between Smash iterations because it's pretty much designed to change between games. I play Makoto in Third Strike and Ultra, and while they are considerably different, the skills it took me to be good in Third Strike with Makoto still transferred and helped me get good at Ultra. The same can't really be said about my Marth between Smash games. Look at Smash 4, where the fundamental tools of Sheik's moveset, needles and ledgeplay, were changed completely. So playing Sheik in S4 requires a completely different set of skills than playing Sheik in Melee. It makes sense that he doesn't want to try to juggle them both at the same time. That's sort of why its so incredible that M2K was able to do well in Melee, Brawl, and S4 simultaneously, because they're all crazy different and require different things from the player, and playing one can severely damage playing the other. Also yes, Daigo plays Ken in SF3. Edit: Here's M2K talking about why he doesn't like to play the same character between games: M2K, Smash4friends.com posted:I personally am not a huge fan of how Sheik plays in this game (contrary to what everybody told me I would be, but people also told me I would enjoy programming and that wasn’t the case either so maybe people don’t know me as well as they think), however I can still explain some of the reasons that we think she is so good. I may or may not pick her up in the future – a big thing that keeps me away from her is because, back in 2008, switching between Brawl Marth and Melee Marth -COMPLETELY- destroyed my Melee Marth for quite a few weeks, until I stopped using Brawl Marth entirely. I was completely used to the range of his Brawl sword and other differences and it made it hard to play Melee Marth again until I stopped using Brawl Marth. A month ago I was using Sheik for a bit in Smash 4 and when I went back to Melee Sheik it felt very weird, but then I only used Diddy for a few weeks and then Melee Sheik felt easy again. If I was not concerned with this, I would be much more interested in seriously pursuing this character. laplace fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Feb 4, 2015 |
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Feb 4, 2015 16:58
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laplace posted:That's sort of why its so incredible that M2K was able to do well in Melee, Brawl, and S4 simultaneously, because they're all crazy different and require different things from the player, and playing one can severely damage playing the other. Probably because he actually put in the time and effort, instead of just saying "nope, it's different" and slamming the controller down in a huff.
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Feb 4, 2015 17:09
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That's the thing though, M2K put a lot of effort into different characters over the years -- Marth and Sheik in both Brawl and Melee, and now Smash 4, and after putting effort in decided not to play them because they are too different. I think most people follow his lead because he tends to know what he's talking about. I think it says a lot that he dropped out of Brawl at APEX, because ultimately it wasn't worth it to mess his Melee and Smash 4 games just to enter all three titles at once while he was really ill. He's also gone on about how he likes to play Diddy because he's relatively straightforward coming from Brawl, and he doesn't need to worry about messing up anything while he plays him. I think that's a contributing factor behind why so many Brawl pros are playing Diddy right now.
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Feb 4, 2015 17:16
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Hell, Megaman is good, but only the red one.
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Feb 4, 2015 17:21
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Theres nothing more satisfying to me as a Megaman player than using my controller in tandem with my fingers and brain to predict someone to roll, or run toward me, and hit them with the fire coming out of the ground for significant damage percentages, and perhaps even a kill on them. Hell, who am I kidding, getting them with an energy blast in the face might even be better.
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Feb 4, 2015 17:23
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Personally, I prefer the air
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Feb 4, 2015 17:24
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Ruggington posted:Personally, I prefer the air Get some.
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Feb 4, 2015 17:26
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Your Computer posted:Melee has been explored for almost 14 years, people have literally dug through the game data to find stuff about the mechanics. It's unfair to say it's more mechanically interesting right now. The fact that so much has been found is WHY it's more mechanically interesting of a game. More is known, more is seen, more is being done in any given match and in any given exchange between characters because the players have fourteen years of information and often experience to work with. This is also why Smash 4 needs to not be dismissed immediately, because a lot of people are holding it against a fourteen year old game given fourteen years of love and expecting it to explode out of the box with the same wealth of options and ability and are getting mad and indignant when a game that's just over four months old had it's first major won by a character with obvious, easily-found advantages and is easy on the execution curve. Y'know, the kind of thing that someone in the first couple months of a game's life, not to mention one-forty-second of the time given to Melee so far might find, fight, and win with. And even then, only two Diddys made the top eight and only one understood enough about his character to not get caught by a pocket character. While there are some questions about how deep the game goes, even ones I'm asking, they're still exactly that right now: questions, that still need real answers. Ledge hogging is a thing and it changed how Melee is played probably for the better, but I'm happy to experiment with new system Smash 4 gives us, especially since Ledge Trumping is a real thing that can lead to real advantages, Also, since many characters have good recoveries, off the stage play more exciting since a lot more of the cast can afford now to jump out there and take a stab at some kind of gimp kill without sacrificing their life. The improved recoveries has also led to the trend of Blast Zone recovering but I think that is something that will get punished more as more players get experience with the game and more comfortable with off the stage play in 4.
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Feb 4, 2015 17:34
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Mr. Locke posted:stuff Ah, so you mean that Melee is more interesting thus far, that makes sense. Though, I will still say that  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1x83Hzrqbh0
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Feb 4, 2015 17:40
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Re: Melee chants during Smash 4: Could this not be fixed simply by having Melee go first and having Smash 4 be the anchor?
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Feb 4, 2015 17:42
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Maple Leaf posted:Re: Melee chants during Smash 4: This would result in basically the majority of the audience leaving after melee grand finals and having smash 4 top 8 play to a much emptier audience.
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Feb 4, 2015 17:47
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