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Lord Frisk posted:I'd argue that the presence of a game isn't nearly as bad as actual death threats. I don't think your argument invalidates the "less toxic than" statement at all.
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Feb 4, 2015 19:46
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| # ? Jun 10, 2024 21:38 |
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What's this referring to?
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Feb 4, 2015 20:03
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The D&D next team credited Zak S and Tarnowski as consultants on the new edition, so 1) great, a new edition that's trying to establish cred as being regressive as gently caress, and 2) picking the scum of the earth to be on your consulting team, even if it's just a sinecure kinda deal, doesn't speak highly of your project as a whole.
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Feb 4, 2015 20:13
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I don't mean that, but the 'board gaming equivalent'. There are a couple of things that I can think of, but I don't want to play guessing games.
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Feb 4, 2015 20:15
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Also double posting but gently caress you, it's for a good cause. It's a loving crime what happened to Mikan. She was one of the better posters around here and Last Stand is really drat good, and now we won't get any more of either of those things. gently caress This Grognard Earth.
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Feb 4, 2015 20:15
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grassy gnoll posted:Also double posting but gently caress you, it's for a good cause. It's a loving crime what happened to Mikan. She was one of the better posters around here and Last Stand is really drat good, and now we won't get any more of either of those things. The only bad thing I can say about Mikan is that she liked Kanye West. FTGE.
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Feb 4, 2015 20:17
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grassy gnoll posted:The D&D next team credited Zak S and Tarnowski as consultants on the new edition, so 1) great, a new edition that's trying to establish cred as being regressive as gently caress, and 2) picking the scum of the earth to be on your consulting team, even if it's just a sinecure kinda deal, doesn't speak highly of your project as a whole. So he knew exactly what he was hiring.
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Feb 4, 2015 20:36
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MadScientistWorking posted:Ehhhh...... You missed the board game equivalent of the consultancy issue last year didn't you because holy crap that was pretty much a similar poo poo storm. Actually, now that I get involved of it every single hobby I think of has had its shittiest moments involve rape in some way which is kind of a scary thought. What are the specifics on this? Also, trying to equate the largest and most recognized rpg brand's debacle to what is apparently a relatively unknown issue isn't exactly a fair argument.
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Feb 4, 2015 20:38
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Zereth posted:I say we burn the hobby to the ground and kill everybody in it, and everybody who could potentially rebuild it. But you'll blow up Mikan! And Ningyou! And Ettin! And everybody else here! Are they on board with this?! 
Davin Valkri fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Feb 4, 2015 |
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Feb 4, 2015 20:42
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The Vosgian Beast posted:So I've been getting more into trpgs that aren't D&D thanks in part to this forum, and I ended up starting a Last Stand campaign with some friends. Then I found out that everything Last Stand related is slowly disappearing off the internet because the creator got harassed out of the hobby, so it seems that I have once again entered a nerd hobby where I like a lot of the creations but the fan base stinks to high heaven. Welcome to the hobby! Everything is horrible. (also I never got a copy of Last Stand and now I can't find one anywhere, so I feel ya dude)
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Feb 4, 2015 20:43
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Davin Valkri posted:But you'll blow up Mikan! And Ningyou! And Ettin! Are they on board with this?! I'm certainly not. 
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Feb 4, 2015 20:46
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Feb 4, 2015 20:48
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Davin Valkri posted:Eh...most of the groggery comes from extreme devotion to historical and technical accuracy even at the expense of gameplay. The "we hate all things new and progressive" Gamergate junk is less prevalent...I think. Somebody gave me my scarlet 'G' avatar for my technical accuracy and complex ruleset  (also because I hate narrativeist games and puppies).
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Feb 4, 2015 20:52
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:Somebody gave me my scarlet 'G' avatar for my technical accuracy and complex ruleset At least until the designer realizes that their extreme simulationism of individual components does a spectacularly bad job of simulating the entire issue in question, and then has to add a ton of fudge factors on top ANYWAYS to make things even remotely accurate at the larger scale. Curse you, Gary Grigsby and your entire line of games where divisions are modeled to squads, blizzard is an Advance Wars esque geo effect, and "staff delegation" does not exist! 
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Feb 4, 2015 21:04
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Lord Frisk posted:I'd argue that the presence of a game isn't nearly as bad as actual death threats. I don't think your argument invalidates the "less toxic than" statement at all. I'd like to take this moment to remind people that Mikan did receive actual death threats and several others were doxxed. Any dick-waving over whose hobby is less likely to produce disgusting, sociopathic behavior is in pretty poor taste.
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Feb 4, 2015 21:23
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grassy gnoll posted:Also double posting but gently caress you, it's for a good cause. It's a loving crime what happened to Mikan. She was one of the better posters around here and Last Stand is really drat good, and now we won't get any more of either of those things. This is a big problem because in most nerd hobbies, the cranks are relegated to the sidelines, even the professional ranks. Say what you want about the gender politics of superhero comics, for example, but people in positions of power over them like Axel Alonso (current Editor-In-Chief of Marvel) aren't paling around with Professional Bigoted Bridge Burner John Byrne or some guy who blogs about how the new Ms Marvel being a teenage girl who is Muslim and Pakistani is giving him cancer. Glorified Scrivener posted:First, I'm not sure exactly why the hobby is toxic, but every single subculture i'm involved in there are some truly deeply hosed up people. It doesn't matter if its volunteer work, the union I belong to, the local woodworking scene, music promotion or being on the committee that organizes the local nerd prom, there are always some really awful people involved somehow. I think the internet makes the problem more visible, but also easier to confront. Yes, helping to create an environment of intolerance for intolerance is a step in the right direction. Often with these types, they truly believe that they're the ones brave enough to speak the "truth", and that everyone else is too brainwashed to do so. It's just common sense what they're saying! Most of us straight white cisgendered dudes (I'm assuming here of course) aren't going to be the targets of the kind of harassment that chases people out of hobbies, so we have to use that to speak up and let them know that no, it's not truth, its not common sense, and get the gently caress out of here. Also you're right, nobody hates a nerd more than another nerd so we often think "Well we're just the worst" and well, we are, but so is everybody else. Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Feb 4, 2015 |
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Feb 4, 2015 21:37
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Anecdotally I'm pretty sure sports fans are worse by percentage. But personally nerds are worse to me because for a long time I felt like "drat guys, you should be smarter than this!" Now I realize that horrible beliefs and ability to solve technical puzzles and escape into fantasy worlds are not, as I hoped, negatively correlated. edit: fixed bad sentence Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Feb 4, 2015 |
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Feb 4, 2015 21:50
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Lightning Lord posted:This is a big problem because in most nerd hobbies, the cranks are relegated to the sidelines, even the professional ranks. Say what you want about the gender politics of superhero comics, for example, but people in positions of power over them like Axel Alonso (current Editor-In-Chief of Marvel) aren't paling around with Professional Bigoted Bridge Burner John Byrne or some guy who blogs about how the new Ms Marvel being a teenage girl who is Muslim and Pakistani is giving him cancer. Bingo. The problem is not just "ttgs have very toxic elements." Most hobbies have that. The problem is "ttgs are run by those toxic elements." People are not being harassed out of the hobby due to hosed up fans, they're being run out of the hobby by the designers of D&D 5e. Davin Valkri posted:But you'll blow up Mikan! And Ningyou! And Ettin! And everybody else here! Are they on board with this?! Oh I see how it is now 
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Feb 4, 2015 22:20
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Someone's gotta talk me out of trying to create a Persona tabletop game out of some kind of unholy fusion of PbtA, 13th Age, and Fate. Oh, who am I kidding. I'm gonna do it anyway. Don't worry. I'm not crazy enough to try to incorporate Persona fusion into this. Nobody needs that many tables.
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Feb 4, 2015 22:23
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ProfessorCirno posted:Oh I see how it is now Nobody cares if we get blowed up.  
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Feb 4, 2015 22:24
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I think that's where the rift is. With video games, I can go on any online gaming platform and have 100 teenage boys call me a human being, claim to have hosed my mother, and implore me to commit suicide inside of 10 minutes. But none of those boys are important figures in the video game industry who will ask their fans to stalk me for funsies.
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Feb 4, 2015 22:25
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Glorified Scrivener posted:First, I'm not sure exactly why the hobby is toxic, but every single subculture i'm involved in there are some truly deeply hosed up people. It doesn't matter if its volunteer work, the union I belong to, the local woodworking scene, music promotion or being on the committee that organizes the local nerd prom, there are always some really awful people involved somehow. I think the internet makes the problem more visible, but also easier to confront.
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Feb 4, 2015 22:35
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:for a long time I felt like "drat guys, you should be smarter than this!"
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Feb 4, 2015 22:47
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Slimnoid posted:Welcome to the hobby! Everything is horrible. It really does suck. One of my friends is now playing a jellyfish woman with a disproportionately large crab claw for a right hand that she ripped off a crab with a wrecking ball claw. I can't get that from D&D 5e.
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Feb 4, 2015 23:09
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Ningyou posted:oh, you sweet summer child Well that was a while ago. I've just accepted that your Standard Human Being is wired to be a superficial, tribal piece of poo poo and breaking that programming is not something that most people will take the effort to do. For every person who says "I'm not going to support that because the people involved are morally repugnant" there are 3 people actively throwing money at, and supporting, the worst stuff. So it's pointless. I did the right stuff, I supported Mikan, I bought Last Stand immediately and had fun with it and guess what? I found out it didn't make any difference. Depressing. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Feb 4, 2015 |
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Feb 4, 2015 23:13
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Slimnoid posted:Welcome to the hobby! Everything is horrible. Yeah, Mikan took down all her games. She did release a free download link for Last Stand and two of her other games, though: https://tinyurl.com/laststandcollection Not that you will ever find that link without asking her personally though.
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Feb 4, 2015 23:16
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The Vosgian Beast posted:So I've been getting more into trpgs that aren't D&D thanks in part to this forum, and I ended up starting a Last Stand campaign with some friends. Then I found out that everything Last Stand related is slowly disappearing off the internet because the creator got harassed out of the hobby, so it seems that I have once again entered a nerd hobby where I like a lot of the creations but the fan base stinks to high heaven. I'm really curious as to the story of how Mikan got harassed out of the hobby, but I know it isn't something that people like to go over again and again, because it sucks a whole lot, so I won't ask anyone to recount it. Probably for the best that I don't know, because I get mad at internet people enough as it is.
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Feb 4, 2015 23:19
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gnome7 posted:Yeah, Mikan took down all her games. She did release a free download link for Last Stand and two of her other games, though: https://tinyurl.com/laststandcollection This is really cool. And extra cool that Mikan is encouraging people to continue working/writing Fortune system stuff (if I read the readme correctly) Thanks Mikan!
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Feb 4, 2015 23:51
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 ... I can't remember what site those were available at.Edit: Found the site, ordered a copy, we'll see if I actually get it. Alien Rope Burn fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Feb 5, 2015 |
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Feb 5, 2015 00:03
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IIRC she's fulfilling all her kickstarter obligations still, she's just not generating any new products or pushing the old ones anymore.
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Feb 5, 2015 00:37
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Davin Valkri posted:At least until the designer realizes that their extreme simulationism of individual components does a spectacularly bad job of simulating the entire issue in question, and then has to add a ton of fudge factors on top ANYWAYS to make things even remotely accurate at the larger scale. Curse you, Gary Grigsby and your entire line of games where divisions are modeled to squads, blizzard is an Advance Wars esque geo effect, and "staff delegation" does not exist! I am a proud Europa, TSS, Barbarossa, Wacht am Rhein, and War in Europe player! (I do draw the line at World in Flames though. I'm not that insane!)
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Feb 5, 2015 00:44
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The Vosgian Beast posted:So I've been getting more into trpgs that aren't D&D thanks in part to this forum, and I ended up starting a Last Stand campaign with some friends. Then I found out that everything Last Stand related is slowly disappearing off the internet because the creator got harassed out of the hobby, so it seems that I have once again entered a nerd hobby where I like a lot of the creations but the fan base stinks to high heaven. I had never heard of Last Stand before now but it sounds like it would be a blast to play. Edit: drat. Whatever happened must have been bad. Everything is just gone. Len fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Feb 5, 2015 |
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Feb 5, 2015 00:52
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The Deleter posted:Why is this hobby so toxic, and, short of shooting everybody who's ever rolled a dice or pretended to be an elf, how do we fix it? Serious question. I'm going to take toxic to mean a combination of: generally weak social skills, incredibly fragile egos, regressive opinions on social issues, and a complete lack of perspective of the importance of the hobby, not just “smells of catpiss.” Firstly, RPGs (the entirety of nerd-culture actually) exist as both an expression of individual personal identity and as a type of commercial product to be purchased on the market place. Being a geek means watching geeky shows, playing geeky games, buying geeky stuff, and doing geeky things like going to cons. Shows, games, cons, and cthulu plushy toys are all products, but for the people buy them they are an affirmation of identity. When someone criticizes one of these products it’s pretty easy to feel that criticism as a personal attack, even if intellectually you recognize it as impersonal criticism. This relationship works both ways. If you dislike a particular product it’s easy to confuse that for distain of the fans of that product. E.G. if you thought Vampire was overwrought, it’s pretty easy to think its fans are as well. Even though, objectively, you can’t know why a particular person likes a particular game, hell, because of the weird identity building aspect of RPGs a fan might not be able to articulate fully why they like something. Surely part of the phenomenon of people who just play D&D (even when another game would better meet their gaming needs) has to come from this. Now, I’m not all the way sure how to phrase this, since clearly minorities and women can be terrible thin skinned people who explode with rage when their opinions on elfgames are questioned. But it seems like we really need to acknowledge that a disproportionate percentage of the RPG hobby is white men, and that the toxic elements of the hobby are proportionately even whiter and male-er. So, looking at what might be going on with guys generally and with white guys specifically also has to be helpful. People have written whole books on that subject and I don’t think I’m going to crack that nut here. But with that in mind, it is pretty fair to say that while white men still have a privileged position in the economy and society, the relative strength of that position is a lot weaker. I think what divides white guys politically is how that change is viewed. Lots of white guys are worried that this erosion of stability is somehow being caused by the gains of women and minorities. Between these two features of the hobby, when somebody says something like: “The artwork in Lamentations of the Flame Princess is problematic,” people flip their poo poo. An attack on the art of a book they like isn’t just an attack on one part of a commercial product. It’s felt as an attack on their taste and their personal identity and the attack is seen as coming from a group that has been using its power to damage their livelihood. I think these guys are full of poo poo because I don’t look at elf games as an integral part of who I am as a person, and I don’t feel threatened by the downward ebb of sexism. But I think that is where they are coming from. There is a lot to unpack in this question.
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Feb 5, 2015 01:20
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Davin Valkri posted:But you'll blow up Mikan! And Ningyou! And Ettin! And everybody else here! Are they on board with this?! are you really asking me if i would throw ettin under
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Feb 5, 2015 01:22
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Davin Valkri posted:But you'll blow up Mikan! And Ningyou! And Ettin! And everybody else here! Are they on board with this?! blow me up, and i will inevitably rise from the ashes like some horrible slutty Nerd Phoenix
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Feb 5, 2015 02:45
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Ningyou posted:blow me up, and i will inevitably rise from the ashes like some horrible slutty Nerd Phoenix So you're going to point dramatically at people and yell "OBJECTION, you are a garbage-chan!"?
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Feb 5, 2015 02:48
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Lord Frisk posted:What are the specifics on this? ProfessorCirno posted:The problem is not just "ttgs have very toxic elements." Most hobbies have that. Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Well that was a while ago. I've just accepted that your Standard Human Being is wired to be a superficial, tribal piece of poo poo and breaking that programming is not something that most people will take the effort to do. For every person who says "I'm not going to support that because the people involved are morally repugnant" there are 3 people actively throwing money at, and supporting, the worst stuff. So it's pointless. I did the right stuff, I supported Mikan, I bought Last Stand immediately and had fun with it and guess what? I found out it didn't make any difference. Depressing. MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Feb 5, 2015 |
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Feb 5, 2015 03:26
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Harrow posted:Someone's gotta talk me out of trying to create a Persona tabletop game out of some kind of unholy fusion of PbtA, 13th Age, and Fate. Incorporate Persona fusion in, you know you want to. Make it a giant affair with enormous amounts of d10s and forcing the player to manually approve each and every rolled for skill. The only way you can achieve maximum Persona 3/4 verisimilitude is to make the process so dull that you only realize you've made your mistake of canceling out the right combination at the last split-second while your goal crumbles around you. Again.
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Feb 5, 2015 05:01
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Harrow posted:Someone's gotta talk me out of trying to create a Persona tabletop game out of some kind of unholy fusion of PbtA, 13th Age, and Fate. Have you looked at Magical Burst? Honestly, Sailor Moon and Personal have a lot more in common than they dont.
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Feb 5, 2015 05:04
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Guys, I know I was dogging on pathfinder for letting you take a feat specifically geared towards making you a fearsome killer of domesticated pets, but sometimes they knock it out of the park. Like this PC race's ability:quote:Ghorus Seed (6 RP): As a full-round action, a ghoran can expel its ghorus seed from an orifice in its abdomen. If planted in fertile ground and left undisturbed for 2d6 days, the seed grows into a healthy duplicate of the original ghoran, save that the duplicate may reallocate all of its skill ranks upon sprouting. Once a ghoran expels its seed, it gains 1 negative level, and it dies as soon as its duplicate sprouts. This duplicate replaces the previous ghoran character.
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Feb 5, 2015 08:05
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