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qirex posted:non-california-compensation.txt [this is in houston] more like the-actual-reasons-behind-the-Texas-Miracle.txt housing costs have meanwhile skyrocketed to the point that businesses are starting to whine that they can't get people to move to take the job (because they aren't paying enough).
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Feb 5, 2015 17:59
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another health metric would be "reduced patient readmissions" or "reduced drug conflicts"
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Feb 5, 2015 18:00
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and I don't see how you can discredit the use of frickin computers in pharmaceutical research
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Feb 5, 2015 18:01
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Shifty Pony posted:more like the-actual-reasons-behind-the-Texas-Miracle.txt just for reference someone willing and able to do all of that would get like 200k in the bay area maybe they'd take 150 if the equity situation was good enough
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Feb 5, 2015 18:04
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theflyingexecutive posted:and I don't see how you can discredit the use of frickin computers in pharmaceutical research getting more candidate molecules is great, but you still have to run it through the same trials you did 50 years ago (also the easy wins are behind us)
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Feb 5, 2015 18:04
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theflyingexecutive posted:and I don't see how you can discredit the use of frickin computers in pharmaceutical research computers can't get drugs through trials
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Feb 5, 2015 18:05
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qirex posted:just for reference someone willing and able to do all of that would get like 200k in the bay area maybe they'd take 150 if the equity situation was good enough for 2% equity you could get a web-writing designer down to $100K, I bet.
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Feb 5, 2015 18:05
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computer parts posted:reduction of errors is intrinsically tied to increasing productivity reducing error rates isn't going to get us the orders of magnitude improvements we see in other fields. it's just not. if doctors went from spending four hours a day on their prior errors, to 0 hours a day, that would still only be a 2-fold improvement. not 10-fold. not 100-fold. it is categorically different from other things in society. more concert violin, less factory worker.
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Feb 5, 2015 18:07
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Subjunctive posted:for 2% equity you could get a web-writing designer down to $100K, I bet. in a place with $3k rent?
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Feb 5, 2015 18:09
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great, we've stretched the definition to 'anything involving talking to another human' guess all consulting will face the same terrible fate
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Feb 5, 2015 18:12
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:concert violin restaurants are a way better comparison imo
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Feb 5, 2015 18:24
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:reducing error rates isn't going to get us the orders of magnitude improvements we see in other fields. it's just not. if doctors went from spending four hours a day on their prior errors, to 0 hours a day, that would still only be a 2-fold improvement. not 10-fold. not 100-fold. you're right, the other constraining factor is labor
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Feb 5, 2015 18:25
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I don't think you're entirely wrong about the constraints on productivity increase in healthcare, but I also think you're kinda glossing over rampant price gouging and fraud as part of the healthcare cost issue
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Feb 5, 2015 18:35
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:(also the easy wins are behind us) idk, new methods to finally culture soil bacteria are pretty goddamn promising there's a whole fuckign ton of poo poo out there that we haven't yet been able to study simply because we can't grow it in a lab
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Feb 5, 2015 18:40
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a big part of rising healthcare costs is the rising cost of education. new doctors have 400k+ student loan debt to pay off and the cost of creating a NP or PA is creeping up too - sort of like what happened with lawyers/law schools.
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Feb 5, 2015 19:11
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sd6 posted:I don't think you're entirely wrong about the constraints on productivity increase in healthcare, but I also think you're kinda glossing over rampant price gouging and fraud as part of the healthcare cost issue that's not specific to healthcare 
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Feb 5, 2015 19:14
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Mad Wack posted:a big part of rising healthcare costs is the rising cost of education. new doctors have 400k+ student loan debt to pay off and the cost of creating a NP or PA is creeping up too - sort of like what happened with lawyers/law schools. and the government still literally has to pay people to be doctors out in the rural south because you can't make any money doing it out there compared to cities full of white people
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Feb 5, 2015 19:16
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Munkeymon posted:restaurants are a way better comparison imo restaurants are achieving outstanding productivity gains. the number of covers is essentially fixed per seat, so the gains come in the form of labor reductions instead of output increases. more and more components are made off-site. some casual dining restaurants literally do not have anyone who cooks at all. dishes are assembled from par-cooked components and passed through a conveyor belt to apply the necessary heat there's a reason that fine dining is moving towards seasonal ingredients, local ingredients and "tasting menus" designed daily/weekly. all three trends are ways to demonstrate that you are avoiding centralized preparation and unskilled assembly in the kitchen five years from now, your local casual dining outlet might have literally two people per shift, down from a staff of dozens.
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Feb 5, 2015 19:17
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:restaurants are achieving outstanding productivity gains. the number of covers is essentially fixed per seat, so the gains come in the form of labor reductions instead of output increases. That's okay. All those people who lost their jobs will suddenly have the free time to learn how to program at a code camp and get a job making six and a half figures.
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Feb 5, 2015 19:21
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Mido posted:not sure what any of these things have to do with anything, sorry about your sad pathetic intern it's a ~cloud startup~
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Feb 5, 2015 19:24
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triple sulk posted:That's okay. All those people who lost their jobs will suddenly have the free time to learn how to program at a code camp and get a job making six and a half figures. yeah six and s half figures: $6.50/hr
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Feb 5, 2015 19:30
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Subjunctive posted:for 2% equity you could get a web-writing designer down to $100K, I bet. pls tell someone ill take a paycut to $100k for 2% equity
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Feb 5, 2015 19:32
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triple sulk posted:That's okay. All those people who lost their jobs will suddenly have the free time to learn how to program at a code camp and get a job making six and a half figures. Sounds p deece
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Feb 5, 2015 19:34
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Wild EEPROM posted:yeah six and s half figures: $6.50/hr In Bill and Mark's America, this is what things will be like in about 20 years, give or take.
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Feb 5, 2015 19:35
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:restaurants are achieving outstanding productivity gains. the number of covers is essentially fixed per seat, so the gains come in the form of labor reductions instead of output increases. I guess I should have specified real restaurants not the gussied up fast food joints that pretend to be restaurants but at least can sell alcohol of course even the real ones would still have escaped some of the cost increases since real wages for unskilled labor have fallen even faster than everyone else's since the 70s which would also make the ingredients cheaper so yeah maybe it's not a great example but it's something more people will have some experience with than classical violin
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Feb 5, 2015 19:36
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As a Millennial I posted:what are the pinball machines The old Data East Simpsons and Batman Forever. Despite being such a horrible movie the Batman table is far more fun than it had any right to be. When it's working that is.
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Feb 5, 2015 19:41
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Mad Wack posted:a big part of rising healthcare costs is the rising cost of education. new doctors have 400k+ student loan debt to pay off and the cost of creating a NP or PA is creeping up too - sort of like what happened with lawyers/law schools. i wonder what people are blaming for that since obviously "olympic style academics" aren't a mainstay of med school
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Feb 5, 2015 19:43
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Munkeymon posted:I guess I should have specified real restaurants not the gussied up fast food joints that pretend to be restaurants but at least can sell alcohol ok that's fair i actually considered using fine dining as an example, but it dawned on me that then tori would try to tell me applebee's was 100% comparable to the tasting menu at per se
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Feb 5, 2015 19:46
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Mad Wack posted:a big part of rising healthcare costs is the rising cost of education. new doctors have 400k+ student loan debt to pay off and the cost of creating a NP or PA is creeping up too - sort of like what happened with lawyers/law schools. well, education is driven by some of the same phenomena
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Feb 5, 2015 19:47
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Mad Wack posted:a big part of rising healthcare costs is the rising cost of education. new doctors have 400k+ student loan debt to pay off and the cost of creating a NP or PA is creeping up too - sort of like what happened with lawyers/law schools. becoming a doctor costs you around a million dollars nowadays if you include lost wages during the 11+ years of higher education required as well as the debt
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Feb 5, 2015 19:56
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:if you include lost wages during the 11+ years of higher education required lol shut up
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Feb 5, 2015 20:05
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:other jobs get no improvements whatsoever. a concert violinist produces exactly the same amount of hours playing violin as she did in 1950 and 1850 and 1750. a teacher can get exactly as much one on one time with students as 50 years ago. but the most important, and frightening, consequence is in healthcare: doctors and nurses have the same number of hours in the day as they ever did. doctor/nurse productivity has gone way up, since there's all sorts of machines that reduce the amount of actual face-to-face time nurses and doctors have to spend with any particular patient. and although teachers have less one-on-one time than before, advancements in curriculum and educational science have the potential to make the time they spend more effective. in both cases, any failure to harness productivity gains is due to some major fuckedupness in the entire industry as a whole it's not like they're rising 100x every year or whatever, but it's not like there's infinite productivity gains to be had in other fields either. for example getting faster computers isn't going to meaningfully increase a programmer's productivity nearly as much as it would thirty years ago, the main bottleneck in coding productivity now is that all programmers are stupid assholes
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Feb 5, 2015 20:08
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As a Millennial I posted:lol shut up http://www.er-doctor.com/doctor_income.html and that assumes you only go 100k into debt which well lol I guess your parents were pretty well off then
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Feb 5, 2015 20:20
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Munkeymon posted:http://www.er-doctor.com/doctor_income.html and that assumes you only go 100k into debt which well lol I guess your parents were pretty well off then you can't get a job as a ups driver at 18 though, the numbers are a bit bad all around its also illegal for a UPS driver to work as many hours as a doctor in his 3rd/4th column
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Feb 5, 2015 20:22
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:reducing error rates isn't going to get us the orders of magnitude improvements we see in other fields. it's just not. if doctors went from spending four hours a day on their prior errors, to 0 hours a day, that would still only be a 2-fold improvement. not 10-fold. not 100-fold. oh I forgot to mention have you heard of IBM's Watson™  it's cancer!
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Feb 5, 2015 20:23
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Main Paineframe posted:doctor/nurse productivity has gone way up, since there's all sorts of machines that reduce the amount of actual face-to-face time nurses and doctors have to spend with any particular patient. and although teachers have less one-on-one time than before, advancements in curriculum and educational science have the potential to make the time they spend more effective. in both cases, any failure to harness productivity gains is due to some major fuckedupness in the entire industry as a whole yeah see this is the techno-futurist poo poo that is just really poorly supported in literature. people talk about huge gains but the cost structures and measures of efficacy we have in the real world don't support it. if productivity in education is going up, why are the best results coming from the same pedagogies we've used for centuries? is there some mega-school somewhere getting knockout results with 1,000-child classes? please don't pitch khan academy if doctors productivity is going up, why do we not have GPs seeing 10x or 100x as many patients a day ? i don't doubt that improvements are made, but they are categorically different from what's happening in other industries Main Paineframe posted:it's not like they're rising 100x every year or whatever, but it's not like there's infinite productivity gains to be had in other fields either. for example getting faster computers isn't going to meaningfully increase a programmer's productivity nearly as much as it would thirty years ago, the main bottleneck in coding productivity now is that all programmers are stupid assholes a programmer's productivity can go up hugely because cheaper hardware and compute makes software useful for more things. it's not that the programmer physically touches more software, or produces more lines of code, it's that the code he does produce is more useful. same with factory workers: individual workers aren't doing more stuff, it's that the impact of their work product is magnified by technology. building and repairing welding robots is way the gently caress more productive than being a welder professions like teaching, live music performance, and medicine are left behind on the productivity gains specifically because there's no power factor like that. the work involves direct interaction with other human beings. productivity can't go up the same way unless you think you're going to automate diagnosis or pedagogy, you're not going to get the orders of magnitude gains. you will only ever chip away at the edges of productivity issues. lastly, this isn't a bad thing. it is in no way bad or wrong that some things cost more relative to other things. not seeing productivity gains doesn't mean that medicine or education or concert violin are somehow low-tech fields, left behind by the rest of the world. Notorious b.s.d. fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Feb 5, 2015 |
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Feb 5, 2015 20:25
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Munkeymon posted:oh I forgot to mention have you heard of IBM's Watson™ "expert systems" for medicine were hyped just as hard in the 1980s. medicine was supposed to be de-skilled by the AI revolution. funny how that turned out all the AI vendors went broke
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Feb 5, 2015 20:26
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hobbesmaster posted:you can't get a job as a ups driver at 18 though, the numbers are a bit bad all around I think it also ignores that you need to byo truck driving license for which you'll have to take classes of some sort where do you see a minimum age? pretty sure a friend of mines dad got in right after high school and retired at the ripe old age of 53
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Feb 5, 2015 20:28
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:"expert systems" for medicine were hyped just as hard in the 1980s. medicine was supposed to be de-skilled by the AI revolution. funny how that turned out  I thought the spoiler would give it away
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Feb 5, 2015 20:32
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look at all these cj babbies freezing up at the idea of having to wrench on a pinball machine
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Feb 5, 2015 20:33
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