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GreyPowerVan posted:Being welfare-dependent doesn't make you like the government. A lot of the people on welfare I meet in the American South are very anti-government and think that all of the -other- people on welfare don't deserve it. Yeah, this is definitely a thing - a lot of people wouldn't be opposed to these kinds of services for the people who really deserve them, but imagine that they are being given to such an overwhelming number of abusers that the programs have to be killed. Same thing happens with many other such views as well; for instance, many abortion center employees are familiar with the occasional pro-life patient who comes in and says that they're not like all those other people in the waiting room but the condom broke and they can't afford to raise a child right now and just have no choice...and the very next day they're right back out front picketing the clinic again.
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Feb 4, 2015 23:59
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Zeitgueist posted:If man had vaccine gun this would not have happened. Children of the 1970s, varicella vax didn't exist then. Really what we all need is to figure out how to aerosolize the vaccines so we can put them in the chemtrails!
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Feb 4, 2015 23:59
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I used the Sharyl Attkisson post with her ambush of the CDC vaccine safety director as a message analysis assignment in my class today. Good news: One of the students in the group that got that as an assignment was a former CDC intern and tore it to shreds.  Bad news: He thought the "genetic predilection leading to an vaccine interaction causing autistic encephalopathy" thing was something that actually existed.  I can teach them source criticism and message analysis skills, but only up to a point. I corrected his speech afterwards, although I suspect he didn't realize I knew more than him. Trabisnikof posted:Correct. While the rate of anti-vax is higher among conservatives, it isn't that much higher and "independents" have a higher rate too. It is an ideologically diverse movement. Again, where are you getting these numbers?!
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Feb 5, 2015 00:02
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Discendo Vox posted:I used the Sharyl Attkisson post with her ambush of the CDC vaccine safety director as a message analysis assignment in my class today. People tend to assume that arguments aren't completely baseless and that arguers aren't flat-out making poo poo up, especially since people rarely bother to go actually verify the claims themselves. They hear that one side is claiming that the science is settled and there's plenty of studies supporting it, and they hear the other side claiming that the science isn't settled and that there's studies and anecdotes contradicting the traditionally-held position, and then if they're really dedicated they might punch something into Google and click the first link that comes up, probably from Fox News. Then, since they're taking the existence and validity of those anti-vax studies at face value, they conclude that there's an ongoing controversy and default to "maybe the truth is in the middle" until the media informs them that the "scientific community" has settled on a decision and there is no more argument. That's one reason why the "anti-" view is so hard to combat. If there's two sides to an issue, someone who doesn't have a particularly strong opinion, doesn't know much about the issue, and doesn't bother to verify either side's arguments, will probably seek out a "middle" position rather than choosing one of the two "extremes". By making it a choice between "Yes" and "No" where only "Yes" existed before, anti-vaxxers win even if they can't get a whole lot of people to drift to "No", because the mere existence of "No" creates a "Maybe" that people can fall into instead, weakening the overall perception of the "Yes" movement. Main Paineframe fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Feb 5, 2015 |
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Feb 5, 2015 00:45
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Discendo Vox posted:Again, where are you getting these numbers?! Sorry missed your asking for a source last time, Public Policy Polling from 2013: http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2011/PPP_Release_National_ConspiracyTheories_040213.pdf Edit: and enjoy another cross-tab from that poll 
Trabisnikof fucked around with this message at 01:18 on Feb 5, 2015 |
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Feb 5, 2015 00:47
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So Public Policy Polling is a Democratic firm that's generally seen as leaning liberal in its design and sampling.
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Feb 5, 2015 01:32
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Discendo Vox posted:So Public Policy Polling is a Democratic firm that's generally seen as leaning liberal in its design and sampling. Potential bias effects on race polling is unlikely to influence the way they poll non partisan issues like conspiracy theories. Do you have specific issues with the sampling of this specific poll? Why would PPP make liberals look better on the vaccine question but not do so for faking the moon landing or trutherism? Do you have better polling data you'd like to share? Because a randomized phone survey of 1000+ Americans is still more valid than all of our anecdotes combined. Let's use what data we have, even if it isn't perfect.
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Feb 5, 2015 02:01
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Trabisnikof posted:Potential bias effects on race polling is unlikely to influence the way they poll non partisan issues like conspiracy theories. We could start with something that gave specified error margins.
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Feb 5, 2015 02:09
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Discendo Vox posted:We could start with something that gave specified error margins. uh it's 2.8%.
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Feb 5, 2015 02:19
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Trabisnikof posted:uh it's 2.8%. It's 2.8% for the whole sample- that's not helpful for specific items on the survey.
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Feb 5, 2015 03:04
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Discendo Vox posted:It's 2.8% for the whole sample- that's not helpful for specific items on the survey. Thats pretty much industry standard in political polling, sure sometimes you'll get more data, but Gallop et al release poll data with only sample wide margins of error all the time. Besides Still, are you trying to dispute the conclusions or just want better sources to exist? I agree completely on the latter.
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Feb 5, 2015 03:26
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Main Paineframe posted:Yeah, this is definitely a thing - a lot of people wouldn't be opposed to these kinds of services for the people who really deserve them, but imagine that they are being given to such an overwhelming number of abusers that the programs have to be killed. Same thing happens with many other such views as well; for instance, many abortion center employees are familiar with the occasional pro-life patient who comes in and says that they're not like all those other people in the waiting room but the condom broke and they can't afford to raise a child right now and just have no choice...and the very next day they're right back out front picketing the clinic again. The most insane thing is there are stories of pro-life protesters with dead baby posters showing up with their pregnant teenage daughters and demanding that it be kept hush hush. I'm saying things like they'll ask that their daughter be let in the back and for no other patients to even see her or know she's there. For that sector of the population it's basically always about image. Smear the gently caress out of those people and publicly air their mistakes but when we gently caress up we have to hide it and bury it because we have an image to maintain.
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Feb 5, 2015 03:47
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ToxicSlurpee posted:The most insane thing is there are stories of pro-life protesters with dead baby posters showing up with their pregnant teenage daughters and demanding that it be kept hush hush. I'm saying things like they'll ask that their daughter be let in the back and for no other patients to even see her or know she's there. For that sector of the population it's basically always about image. Smear the gently caress out of those people and publicly air their mistakes but when we gently caress up we have to hide it and bury it because we have an image to maintain. My baby just made a little mistake, those other girls are whores.
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Feb 5, 2015 04:08
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ToxicSlurpee posted:The most insane thing is there are stories of pro-life protesters with dead baby posters showing up with their pregnant teenage daughters and demanding that it be kept hush hush. I'm saying things like they'll ask that their daughter be let in the back and for no other patients to even see her or know she's there. For that sector of the population it's basically always about image. Smear the gently caress out of those people and publicly air their mistakes but when we gently caress up we have to hide it and bury it because we have an image to maintain. Their viewpoint is that they are one of the few people who actually made a mistake, which is why they don't want to sit in the same waiting room as everyone else, since they think that most people visiting abortion clinics are dirty sluts who are just whoring around everywhere without a care in the world. You see the same thing with conservatives on welfare - they don't oppose there being a small safety net to catch people who've fallen on hard times and just need a few months to get back on their feet, they only oppose welfare because they think most other poor people are lazy parasites leeching off the welfare system, and they think that the system is helpless to defend itself against them unless it's cut back to bare minimums. That's why "welfare queens" is such a thing - it's integral to their views.
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Feb 5, 2015 04:16
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Trabisnikof posted:Thats pretty much industry standard in political polling, sure sometimes you'll get more data, but Gallop et al release poll data with only sample wide margins of error all the time. Besides The latter. A snippet of results without context or method should not be adequate, especially in this setting, for this audience.
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Feb 5, 2015 04:28
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Someone in this thread recommended On Immunity: An Inoculation and I haven't been able to put it down. It's great.
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Feb 5, 2015 06:43
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ToxicSlurpee posted:The most insane thing is there are stories of pro-life protesters with dead baby posters showing up with their pregnant teenage daughters and demanding that it be kept hush hush. I'm saying things like they'll ask that their daughter be let in the back and for no other patients to even see her or know she's there. For that sector of the population it's basically always about image. Smear the gently caress out of those people and publicly air their mistakes but when we gently caress up we have to hide it and bury it because we have an image to maintain. The only moral abortion is my abortion. http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html
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Feb 5, 2015 07:04
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ExplodingChef posted:The only moral abortion is my abortion. It's literally cognitive dissonance 101. For them, they are always the exception for everything, no matter what. It's pretty much how the modern GOP has maintained power by convincing millions of lower class people that it's everyone else who's made their lives difficult by leeching off the system. There's a hilarious clip of two brothers on opposite sides of the political spectrum arguing, and then their mother calls the show to berate them, and when the host asks her politics she mentions she's a registered democrat, has often voted GOP in the past, but when her autistic grandson was born her biggest political concern became supporting the party that would make it easier for him to get proper medical care for the rest of his life. The look on the GOP son's face was priceless, because there's literally nothing you can say to counter that.
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Feb 5, 2015 07:33
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Good news! New York is now getting in on this stupid poo poo! http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article/albany/2015/02/8561657/new-york-lawmakers-push-additional-vaccine-exemptions quote:The bill, sponsored by Assembly Democrat Tom Abinanti of Westchester and State Senate Democrat Martin Dilan of Brooklyn, would provide parents the option of a philosophical exemption, which is already available in 19 states. It would allow New York parents to send their unvaccinated children to school if they check a pre-written statement indicating their objection. The Assembly speaker just got arrested so who knows what's going to happen here, but this is just gross.
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Feb 5, 2015 16:34
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Tater Love 
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Why do I get the feeling that some people take having a disabled child as a personal insult and so try to find something else to blame it on other than bad luck/their own lovely genetics?
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Feb 5, 2015 16:37
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Washington State has a bill in the legislature removing the "personal belief" exemption, allowing only medical and religious exemptions. I believe California has a similar bill. Here's what I don't understand - what's the practical difference legally speaking between a "personal belief" exemption and a "religious" exemption?
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Feb 5, 2015 17:02
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OwlFancier posted:Why do I get the feeling that some people take having a disabled child as a personal insult and so try to find something else to blame it on other than bad luck/their own lovely genetics? As best I can tell, it's the same impulse that drives people to be really religious: they're scared that life is meaningless and sometimes good and bad poo poo just happens out of luck. Everything has to have some sort of cause, and it can't be that God would disable their child through bad luck or whatever, so clearly it has to be someone's fault. As someone with a disability, it's a lot easier to pretend it's someone else's fault than admit that sometimes you just get the lovely end of the stick, as we almost all do from time to time.
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Feb 5, 2015 17:03
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Technogeek posted:(In other words, if you could have vaccinated your kids but don't, and that causes a fetus to develop congenital rubella, it's your fault if the mother chooses to have an abortion as a result.)
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Feb 5, 2015 17:07
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Solkanar512 posted:Washington State has a bill in the legislature removing the "personal belief" exemption, allowing only medical and religious exemptions. I believe California has a similar bill. It varies by state, but generally: Religious exemption laws tend to be narrower, and require proof of membership in one of a set of specified religions that are covered under the exemption. There's also an associated process to add a religious group to the list.
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Feb 5, 2015 17:08
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Solkanar512 posted:Washington State has a bill in the legislature removing the "personal belief" exemption, allowing only medical and religious exemptions. I believe California has a similar bill. quote:(b) A written certification signed by any parent or legal guardian of the child or any adult in loco parentis to the child that the religious beliefs of the signator are contrary to the required immunization measures; or Legally speaking lying on a government form is perjury, so practically someone who had a personal objection could lie and claim a religious belief without any practical consequence, but legally it would be a crime (that could never be successfully prosecuted). edit: Here's the form you have to fill out: http://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/Pubs/348-106_CertificateofExemption.pdf
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Feb 5, 2015 19:30
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zakharov posted:Good news! New York is now getting in on this stupid poo poo! Let's hope the Republicans can defeat that Democratic initiative birthed from the leftist center known as NYC.
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Feb 5, 2015 20:14
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Zeitgueist posted:3) "You should send your kid to a Chicken Pox Party rather than get them the vaccination, it's safer and you will be at less risk for shingles" Hey, I saw people on one of those natural foods/anti-Monsanto facebook groups talking about the potential for measles parties, cause their parents all had measles so it can't be that bad. 
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Feb 5, 2015 20:18
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"Hey not that many people died and modern medicine will save you these days" - Someone who is denying the validity of modern medicine. I poo poo you not.
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Feb 5, 2015 20:21
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Zeitgueist posted:"Hey not that many people died and modern medicine will save you these days" - Someone who is denying the validity of modern medicine. Well you don't really need UNNATURAL VACCINES when you can just sit in a hospital for a week! BIG PHARMA... strikes... again?
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Feb 5, 2015 20:23
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Welp, another outbreak of measles in Chicago. http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/health/Several-Kids-Diagnosed-With-Measles-At-Suburban-KinderCare-290935141.html
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Feb 5, 2015 20:28
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Luigi Thirty posted:Well you don't really need UNNATURAL VACCINES when you can just sit in a hospital for a week! BIG PHARMA... strikes... again? I had a feeling Big Hospital was behind this
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Feb 5, 2015 21:12
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mightygerm posted:Welp, another outbreak of measles in Chicago. 
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Feb 5, 2015 22:01
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I guess I just cant pull off the mental gymnastics these people can to rationalize not getting vaccinated. Their generation is the first in history to not suffer through these terrible, sometimes crippling and deadly, diseases because they were all vaccinated. Why the hell would you deny your own child the same opportunity for such a high quality of life? 
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Feb 5, 2015 23:07
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Democracy Now has an antivaxer Gish Gallop today, at about 29:20 http://publish.dvlabs.com/democracynow/ipod/dn2015-0205.mp4
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Feb 5, 2015 23:47
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mightygerm posted:Welp, another outbreak of measles in Chicago. All five have been confirmed, all under the age of one. VideoTapir posted:Democracy Now has an antivaxer Gish Gallop today, at about 29:20 gently caress Democracy Now and their anti-science bullshit.
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Feb 5, 2015 23:51
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Solkanar512 posted:All five have been confirmed, all under the age of one. What? It was bookended by two doctors ranting about antivaxers, and the second one directly addressing many of her points.
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Feb 5, 2015 23:56
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"Why didn't we all die from these diseases pre-vaccine? Why didn't the Bubonic Plague wipe out humanity? I mean, there was ZERO herd immunity... right?" Actual quote from another message board. 
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Feb 6, 2015 00:55
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Yeah, the plague wiped out half of Europe - only half, not all! Proof that we don't need vaccines.
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Feb 6, 2015 01:27
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Heard this today, thought it was interesting: http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2015/02/04/383796532/pediatricians-pressured-to-drop-parents-who-wont-vaccinate quote:Pediatricians Pressured To Drop Parents Who Won't Vaccinate Glad more parents are starting to speak up. This is a concern of mine, considering the PNW is one of my most likely landing spots when I start a family. I really don't want to be in a community where exposure is a significant risk.
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Feb 6, 2015 02:38
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A friend still had a memebership at a forum that's apparently overrun with anti-vaxxers now:     It only took them 6 threads to find someone declaring a disease didn't exist (in this case ebola).
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Feb 6, 2015 03:03
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