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Well, they literally think they'd rather their kids get measles than autism.
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Feb 7, 2015 07:27
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point of return posted:Well, they literally think they'd rather their kids get measles than autism. Polio is no big deal, people used to get it all the time and society never collapsed! I think Whooping Cough is the worst, because people have literally broken their back from coughing so hard and faced lifelong pain as a result.
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Feb 7, 2015 09:19
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Sucrose posted:Am I the only one who gets a creepy eugenics vibe from some of these anti-vaxxers? They go on and on about how measles isn't that bad and isn't a danger to healthy children. I just read a comment from one talking about "Normal Childhood Diseases" and saying that it's tragic that babies died from pertussis prior to the vaccine in the 1980s, but that we don't know if those were previously healthy babies that died from the disease. And then others talking about how children and babies are designed to survive and thrive even if they come down with diseases. You're not the only one getting the eugenics vibe off of them. They've convinced themselves that something like Autism can't be genetic, because that would require them to admit that maybe, just maybe, their DNA isn't perfect. It's only those people of inferior genetic stock that need to worry about things like complications from diseases, or compromised immune systems. They might as well just start calling their kids genetic Supermen.
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Feb 7, 2015 09:22
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Sucrose posted:Am I the only one who gets a creepy eugenics vibe from some of these anti-vaxxers? They go on and on about how measles isn't that bad and isn't a danger to healthy children. I just read a comment from one talking about "Normal Childhood Diseases" and saying that it's tragic that babies died from pertussis prior to the vaccine in the 1980s, but that we don't know if those were previously healthy babies that died from the disease. And then others talking about how children and babies are designed to survive and thrive even if they come down with diseases. Remember, a lot of them are natural-stuff freaks. When they say "healthy" they don't mean "not immunocompromised", they mean "breastfed, constantly treated with the latest ~natural~ remedies and vitamin supplements, making sure to regularly take their herbals and homeopathic supplements, and never letting real medicine or junk food within thirty feet of their mouth". I've seen anti-vaxxers claim that breast milk and vitamin supplements prevent children from suffering serious effects of diseases even if they catch those diseases. They're not malicious, they just genuinely believe that modern medicine is poisoning and weakening children, and we'd all be better off if we took vitamin C megadoses instead of getting vaccines. Of course, these parents' terrible health ideas aren't limited just to preventative care. Just ask anti-vaxxers how they treat their child's measles. quote:When my daughter had measles I withheld all food from her. Food feeds a virus as well as the person, and valuable energy is wasted on the digestive system when it should be going to the immune system. Fasting allows the body to rest. We usually don’t feel like eating when we are ill because it is our body’s way of telling us to fast.  See how easily people can mislead themselves into literally harming their children with just stupid pop health bullshit, some woo-woo naturism crap, barely-understood out-of-context quotes from random websites, and a cross between ancient folk wisdom and gut feelings? She means no malice. She literally thinks she is doing what is best for her child, as loving unbelievable as it is.
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Feb 7, 2015 09:41
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point of return posted:Well, they literally think they'd rather their kids get measles than autism. "Better dead than dumb" It's a loving horrible position to take, isn't it? Rather than the extra effort required in raising a child on the spectrum, they'd rather watch their own child die. EDIT: I don't think autistic children are dumb, I'm paraphrasing* how these people think. * in a deliberately nasty way, because they are deliberately nasty people.
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Feb 7, 2015 09:51
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point of return posted:Well, they literally think they'd rather their kids get measles than autism. I have encountered anti-vaccers that believe that their children are better off dead than autistic. I had to restrain both the urge to vomit and the urge to throttle them where they stood.
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Feb 7, 2015 09:56
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Main Paineframe posted:Remember, a lot of them are natural-stuff freaks. When they say "healthy" they don't mean "not immunocompromised", they mean "breastfed, constantly treated with the latest ~natural~ remedies and vitamin supplements, making sure to regularly take their herbals and homeopathic supplements, and never letting real medicine or junk food within thirty feet of their mouth". I've seen anti-vaxxers claim that breast milk and vitamin supplements prevent children from suffering serious effects of diseases even if they catch those diseases. They're not malicious, they just genuinely believe that modern medicine is poisoning and weakening children, and we'd all be better off if we took vitamin C megadoses instead of getting vaccines. So nobody notices that the same companies producing Vitamin C megadoses and other vitamins are basically big pharma? The generics are pretty much the same drugs, but with less advertising. Also, you're body can really only accept so much Vitamin C per day, once you exceed that limit, you are literally pissing out Vitamin C. thrakkorzog fucked around with this message at 11:10 on Feb 7, 2015 |
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Feb 7, 2015 11:05
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 Well if <thing> is so safe for humans older than 18 months, then why do you tell pregnant women not to do <thing>? Hmmmm doctors? Hmmmmmm? *Pours his pregnant wife a glass of wine every night*
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Feb 7, 2015 11:13
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thrakkorzog posted:So nobody notices that the same companies producing Vitamin C megadoses and other vitamins are basically big pharma? The generics are pretty much the same drugs, but with less advertising. Even better - a completely unregulated version of Big Pharma! http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/03/new-york-attorney-general-targets-supplements-at-major-retailers/?_r=0 You think Big Pharma is bad? Imagine what it would be like if it had no over sight! Main Paineframe posted:I've seen anti-vaxxers claim that breast milk and vitamin supplements prevent children from suffering serious effects of diseases even if they catch those diseases. I think the breast milk thing does have some basis in fact, since you get some of the mother's antibodies through the breast milk, so there is the potential to reduce the length of a disease, since you're immune system gets a bit of a head start. gninjagnome fucked around with this message at 12:30 on Feb 7, 2015 |
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Feb 7, 2015 12:28
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thrakkorzog posted:You're not the only one getting the eugenics vibe off of them. They've convinced themselves that something like Autism can't be genetic, because that would require them to admit that maybe, just maybe, their DNA isn't perfect. It's only those people of inferior genetic stock that need to worry about things like complications from diseases, or compromised immune systems. They might as well just start calling their kids genetic Supermen. Yeeaaaaaaah about that... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigo_children The anti-vaxx idiots are also often believers of stupid new age bullshit.
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Feb 7, 2015 14:22
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gninjagnome posted:I think the breast milk thing does have some basis in fact, since you get some of the mother's antibodies through the breast milk, so there is the potential to reduce the length of a disease, since you're immune system gets a bit of a head start. Sortakinda. AFAIK, the antibodies in breast milk enter the infant's gut and protect it against gastrointestinal infections, but it's not clear whether they offer much if any protection against respiratory infections. Plus, levels of maternal antibodies in a kid's system start to fall off after 6 months to a year, so any immune boost they get has a best-by date. (I'm trying to find out but not clear whether this is because mom stops producing the antibodies or whether the kid starts producing their own and eliminating mom's.) Besides, even if breastfeeding did provide an extensive, long-term immune system boost, what are these people going to do? Breastfeed their kids well into their teens? e: Realized that this might have sounded as if I'm criticizing you, which I'm not. I'm just always befuddled by this argument whenever anti-vaxxers raise it. farfegnougat fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Feb 7, 2015 |
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Feb 7, 2015 14:58
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I've had an anti-vaxxer literally argue with me that killing off all kids who aren't naturally immune is survival of the fittest and eventually everyone would be naturally immune. When I pointed out that Smallpox was at least ~10k years old they ignored it.
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Feb 7, 2015 15:48
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pentyne posted:Polio is no big deal, people used to get it all the time and society never collapsed! Yeah, they do not seem to understand that "these diseases never actually wiped out the species" does not negate "these diseases caused tremendous grief for many families." People were more accustomed to dealing with the horrible tragedy of losing a child back then:   But not so accustomed that they didn't leap at the opportunity to wipe out these horrible diseases. Obviously vaccines were not solely responsible for the drop, I'm just saying that we live in age/place where tragedy is not interwoven in the fabric of everyday life to the extent it used to be, and that probably rose-tints our view of the past.
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Feb 7, 2015 16:02
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farfegnugent posted:Sortakinda. AFAIK, the antibodies in breast milk enter the infant's gut and protect it against gastrointestinal infections, but it's not clear whether they offer much if any protection against respiratory infections. Plus, levels of maternal antibodies in a kid's system start to fall off after 6 months to a year, so any immune boost they get has a best-by date. (I'm trying to find out but not clear whether this is because mom stops producing the antibodies or whether the kid starts producing their own and eliminating mom's.) Besides, even if breastfeeding did provide an extensive, long-term immune system boost, what are these people going to do? Breastfeed their kids well into their teens? Nah, it's cool. II was bringing it up more as one of those things that probably has a grain of truth to it that anti-vaxxers latch on to and expand past what it really means to help bolster their arguments.
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Feb 7, 2015 16:09
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A Fancy 400 lbs posted:I've had an anti-vaxxer literally argue with me that killing off all kids who aren't naturally immune is survival of the fittest and eventually everyone would be naturally immune. When I pointed out that Smallpox was at least ~10k years old they ignored it. You are making this up. Right? 
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Feb 7, 2015 16:11
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Vienna Circlejerk posted:Yeah, they do not seem to understand that "these diseases never actually wiped out the species" does not negate "these diseases caused tremendous grief for many families." People were more accustomed to dealing with the horrible tragedy of losing a child back then: Graphs aren't very good at conveying information in a meaningful way to some people, perhaps if we forced people to stand in an NFL football stadium, piled 8.8 feet deep with dead compacted newborn children* they would get a better idea of the significance of the 1900 infant mortality rate, nowadays. *(up to 13.8 feet accounting for stacking inefficiency) OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Feb 7, 2015 |
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Feb 7, 2015 16:21
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OwlFancier posted:Graphs aren't very good at conveying information in a meaningful way to some people, perhaps if we forced people to stand in an NFL football stadium, piled 8.8 feet deep with dead compacted newborn children* they would get a better idea of the significance of the 1900 infant mortality rate, nowadays. I think what made me really notice it was just reading biographical information about famous people from the 19th century. It seemed almost all of them had siblings who died as children or had a child of their own who died. This wasn't in conjunction with any kind of health research, it was just a thing I noticed one day, how much shittier everything used to be in ways we can't really imagine today. This morning I've been reading up on how we as a society can best deal with the anti-vax movement, like whether or not shaming works, and so on, and I ran across this, which I thought was interesting: Leaving the Anti-Vaccine Movement.
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Feb 7, 2015 16:47
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I will try to be fair: if vaccinations actually caused autism it'd be a hard call between measles, which you can recover from, and a crippling lifelong social disorder. But, the thing is, they don't.
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Feb 7, 2015 18:44
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pentyne posted:Polio is no big deal, people used to get it all the time and society never collapsed!  A friend of mine in high school caught that for some reason; I think she'd been vaccinated but it hadn't taken properly, as her family weren't anti-vax idiots. She ended up having to wear a chest wrap for like a month as she'd coughed so much and hard that she'd damaged her ribs and chest muscles. Vienna Circlejerk posted:Yeah, they do not seem to understand that "these diseases never actually wiped out the species" does not negate "these diseases caused tremendous grief for many families." People were more accustomed to dealing with the horrible tragedy of losing a child back then: It's incredible how little time it took for people to forget that, not too terribly long ago, "all my siblings made it to adulthood in one piece" was a rare sign of fantastic good fortune.
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Feb 7, 2015 18:48
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I just realized why the sudden alliance between antivaxers and the right: You can make up for the dead kids by banning abortion, and vice-versa.
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Feb 7, 2015 18:49
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corn in the bible posted:I will try to be fair: if vaccinations actually caused autism it'd be a hard call between measles, which you can recover from, and a crippling lifelong social disorder. But, the thing is, they don't. You do know measles can cause you do go deaf, right? Or, you know, die?
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Feb 7, 2015 18:52
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gninjagnome posted:Even better - a completely unregulated version of Big Pharma! It's technically regulated in a limited sense, but in practice the FDA is restricted by a combination of a totally inadequate budget (they need about ten times the funding they currently have to do a satisfactory job) and a really dangerous game of legal cat-and-mouse with a number of sophisticated industry legal groups, especially the Washington Legal Foundation, who are basically Satan incarnate when it comes to dismantling the food and drug (and dietary supplement) regulatory system. They're by far the most effective and systematic set of bastards I've encountered in the entire legal system. Vienna Circlejerk posted:This morning I've been reading up on how we as a society can best deal with the anti-vax movement, like whether or not shaming works, and so on, and I ran across this, which I thought was interesting: Leaving the Anti-Vaccine Movement. I'd strongly recommend the research of Rachel Smith, of Penn State, who focuses on the mechanisms of stigma message interventions (attempts to shame and stigmatize a target population). She's convinced it's a bad approach, and she's the leading expert in that area. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Feb 7, 2015 |
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Feb 7, 2015 19:05
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VideoTapir posted:I just realized why the sudden alliance between antivaxers and the right: You can make up for the dead kids by banning abortion, and vice-versa. I really don't think there is any such alliance. I think a few right wing politicians are naturally falling back to their default position that the government shouldn't make anything compulsory in the interest of public health, but the anti-vax movement is still a loony, nonpartisan fringe like chemtrails. I don't think that is going to change.
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Feb 7, 2015 19:13
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thespaceinvader posted:You do know measles can cause you do go deaf, right? Or, you know, die? I'm well aware of that. I'm saying that in their view of the situation it makes a certain amount of sense, and you have to understand that to understand why these people act this way.
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Feb 7, 2015 19:17
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VideoTapir posted:I just realized why the sudden alliance between antivaxers and the right: You can make up for the dead kids by banning abortion, and vice-versa. Even Fox News has been talking about how that poo poo is stupid.
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Feb 7, 2015 19:18
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corn in the bible posted:Even Fox News has been talking about how that poo poo is stupid. It helps that some of the most visible and vocal anti-vaxxers are Hollywood celebrities, which naturally biases the right against them. I'm actually glad of that, because vaccines becoming a partisan issue would be a loving nightmare.
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Feb 7, 2015 19:22
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corn in the bible posted:I'm well aware of that. I'm saying that in their view of the situation it makes a certain amount of sense, and you have to understand that to understand why these people act this way. It's still a very small subset of the movement that only opposes vaccines because of the fake link to autism. Autism is but a single bullet point on the long list of other non-truths to which the anti-vaxx community subscribes. If it was a position based on sense, then it could be dispelled with sufficient and convincing evidence. But as soon as you trot out the evidence against the autism link they just retreat to some other insane and clearly false thing, like believing that vaccines never undergo safety studies or that unvaccinated children are sick less often. All the while, they haven't actually stopped believing that autism is caused by vaccines, they've just stopped talking to you about it for the moment.
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Feb 7, 2015 19:25
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Back when I was born (1993) the anti-vax movement was at an all-time high. Now my parents were already unfortunate enough to already have a disabled child, (I was born with Cerebral Palsy and later my parents would find out I had Non-Verbal Learning Disability ) Despite this, my parents still vaccinated me and I am now going to university. My point is, having a disabled child isn't the end of the world. Autism is such a broad spectrum anyway. My mom also remembers taking me to a therapeutic horse riding class for special needs kids and there was one mom whose son had autism. She was warning everyone about vaccines despite the fact that her two older kids were vaccinated and didn't have autism.  The autistic boy didn't seem to be verbal and wasn't focusing on anything much, so I guess he was a severe case. The mom was also pregnant and wasn't going to vaccinate that kid either. My mom only saw that family once and the family never went back again. 
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Feb 7, 2015 21:15
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Violet_Sky posted:Back when I was born (1993) the anti-vax movement was at an all-time high. Hahaha no it wasn't, the elite liberal organic free range all natural no vaccines movement is much much bigger now than it was in 1993, and skipping vaccines was much more rare back then than it is now. Trust me, I was there. I had a conversation with someone about vaccines last week that hinged on them saying that vaccines are horrible because they aren't natural. I pointed out that anthrax is natural and I don't think that imbues it with any special charm or appeal and they flat out refused to believe me. They claimed repeatedly that it couldn't be natural since if it was it wouldn't be harmful, it must be some industrial byproduct if it kills you. Like flat out couldn't believe anthrax occurs naturally even when I pulled up wikipedia on my phone, because god wouldn't create something that horrible in nature. On a related note I loving hate it when I get dragged along to lunch at Whole Foods.
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Feb 7, 2015 21:48
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Pryor on Fire posted:Hahaha no it wasn't, the elite liberal organic free range all natural no vaccines movement is much much bigger now than it was in 1993, and skipping vaccines was much more rare back then than it is now. Trust me, I was there. You should probably just beat them to death with a big chunk of all-natural wood, and/or feed them to an all-natural bengal tiger next time.
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Feb 7, 2015 22:01
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Shoot them up with all-natural crude oil, maybe.
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Feb 7, 2015 22:14
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All-natural snake venom. To complete the snake-oil analogy 
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Feb 7, 2015 22:20
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Pryor on Fire posted:Hahaha no it wasn't, the elite liberal organic free range all natural no vaccines movement is much much bigger now than it was in 1993, and skipping vaccines was much more rare back then than it is now. Trust me, I was there. That might be the most moronic thing that I've ever read. Some of the most toxic chemicals to humans are completely natural: ricin, botulism toxin, ciguatoxin, all naturally occurring, all toxic as gently caress. You can catch Ciguatera by just eating the wrong reef fish, but it's all-natural Ciguatera causing those intense hallucinations and vomiting that can potentially relapse for decades so I guess that's okay! Also Whole Foods lunches are cheap and pretty drat good but I guess ymmv
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Feb 7, 2015 23:31
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My favourite counter argument to all-natural organicness being a universal specific is that deadly nightshade is organic and arsenic is natural. Some people cannot be persuaded, however.
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Feb 8, 2015 00:23
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Yeah, like you can die from eating the wrong kind of almonds. Motherfucking almonds will kill your dumb "nature can do no wrong"-believing rear end.
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Feb 8, 2015 01:10
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Pryor on Fire posted:Hahaha no it wasn't, the elite liberal organic free range all natural no vaccines movement is much much bigger now than it was in 1993, and skipping vaccines was much more rare back then than it is now. Trust me, I was there. So do they just straight up deny the existence of poisonous animals/plants or...
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Feb 8, 2015 01:13
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DarkCrawler posted:So do they just straight up deny the existence of poisonous animals/plants or... "It's healthy in certain doses." That's the only reason homopathy took off, they sold that idea that insanely poisonous can be turned into magic cure-alls by taking advantage of the mystical properties of water, and since anyone who actually poisons themselves is just "doing it wrong" they can deflect all criticism.
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Feb 8, 2015 02:34
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pentyne posted:"It's healthy in certain doses." But if you try to explain that CHEMICALS are safe in cetain doses they lose their poo poo.
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Feb 8, 2015 02:57
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Actually one thing I noticed earlier, one of the weird people on that forum mentioned belladonna 6, are they actually taking deadly nightshade as a medicine?
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Feb 8, 2015 02:59
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OwlFancier posted:Actually one thing I noticed earlier, one of the weird people on that forum mentioned belladonna 6, are they actually taking deadly nightshade as a medicine? Homeopathic means diluted to the point where it's unlikely you have a single molecule of the active ingredient. Yeah.
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Feb 8, 2015 03:06
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