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So i'm looking for a new GP (general practitioner) because I changed insurance companies due to a job change. I went into premera's GP finder and looked 3 mi away from my house and the vast majority are chiros and naturopaths. I kind of want to scream. The naturopaths are borderline ok but chiro's being listed as GP? what the gently caress? Maybe this is why this poo poo is pretty bad around the pacific nw. My last insurance was group health and they were staunchly pro vaccination. My husband was having surgery for his shoulder and the doc was harrassing him to get his boosters because we're both of child bearing age and have lots of nephews. I've got all my boosters and will be getting a titer test before we have or adopt.
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Feb 9, 2015 18:49
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Madmarker posted:Are there loud, outspoken male antivaxxers? The only polling I can find, suggests that the rate of anti-vax opinions are the same among men and women. However, Discendo Vox hates the pollster so apply any grains of salt you'd like. http://publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2011/PPP_Release_National_ConspiracyTheories_040213.pdf
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Feb 9, 2015 18:50
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PT6A posted:To both parts? And, to clarify, I meant that to administer a proper IQ test, it takes long enough and requires a professional to do it, so their time is worth that amount of money. The one I took was done over the course of a few days, as I recall. There are many different IQ test, most of which take a couple hours. Costing more than 300$ for any of these would be highly irregular. IQ goes down in most measurements over the course of time, but most IQ tests are designed to be administered to adults. IQ is a lovely metric and there are problems with its abuse, but your experience with the test was nonrepresentative.
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Feb 9, 2015 18:54
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Madmarker posted:Are there loud, outspoken male antivaxxers? http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/uwf623/robert-f--kennedy--jr- Not going to lie it's pretty hilarious/depressing to watch.
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Feb 9, 2015 18:54
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Axolotl posted:I think most men who are stridently anti-vaccine tend to be in occupations where they profit from their hucksterism, like naturopaths and homeopaths, or paranoiacs. Chiropractic is rife with this bullshit. Uhh, but the people who profit the most from the sick are Big Pharma? Selling antibiotics to someone for weeks/months is orders of magnitude more profitable than selling them cheap vaccines a once or twice in their life. 
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Feb 9, 2015 19:00
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Truga posted:Uhh, but the people who profit the most from the sick are Big Pharma? Selling antibiotics to someone for weeks/months is orders of magnitude more profitable than selling them cheap vaccines a once or twice in their life. I hate this style argument when it comes up: So, what, you are telling me that the doctor and the pharmaceutical company should make NO profit? How do you expect them to stay in business. At the same time, if Whole Foods is selling you 'healthier' food to help you live better, should they be allowed to make (record) profits?
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Feb 9, 2015 19:01
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CommieGIR posted:I hate this style argument when it comes up: Seriously, production laboratories are loving expensive to set up, as they should be.
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Feb 9, 2015 19:03
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Nckdictator posted:http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/uwf623/robert-f--kennedy--jr-  An overwhelming link, you say? I can't find it.
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Feb 9, 2015 19:04
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Vienna Circlejerk posted:The average person's access to health information is via media outlets that, even when you don't include product marketing, frequently send contradictory messages with no easy way for a lay person to determine the validity thereof. Add in health and food product marketing and it's pretty hopeless for most people whose educational backgrounds do not include things like how to verify information and determine what constitutes a good authoritative source. Add to this that there are actual (quack) doctors in the anti-vax movement and it's easy to see how people who do not have good access to a solid science education or the time to pursue a thorough background in every subject that concerns them (most people; goons who don't have kids and jobs that wear them out don't count) can be easily misled. I think you hit the nail on the head. I really do blame the media for a lot of it. Here is media science reporting in a nutshell:  American science education sucks. Really, really sucks. Most don't know how research works and how much failure goes on with even the most successful researchers and projects. Oftentimes the media will report on preliminary results from a technique/concept in its infancy. And then when it turns out weeks or months later that the experiment was a bust, the media will go back and say that the miracle cure was bullshit. When the scientists conducting the experiment weren't even claiming that it was a miracle to begin with. It creates the perception that modern medicine doesn't know what it is doing, which isn't the case. Science is in fact designed to allow for the avoidance of absolutes. It is why scientists use the word 'theory' instead of 'law'. It is meant to be mutable and changing. People view this as a flaw but it really is science's greatest strength. People like simple stories. They like issues being settled. In science, things are rarely settled unless they've been worked on for decades or more. And even then, a new piece of information can challenge previously held dogma. Too many people think this is a weakness and that science 'can't make up its mind' or 'doesn't know what it is talking about'. This is the line of thinking where they decide the 'natural' routes are the best because there's no confusion, only absolutes. And therein lies the trap. Lets take drug commercials. There are huge listings of frequently terrible side effects to seemingly benign conditions. I have to calmly inform people that drug manufacturers are required to list every side effect, even if 2 people out of 100,000 experienced it. And I have to tell them that these frequently serious side effects might have been compounded by individual variation. Then they go on the internet and find thousands of results of people who had these serious side effects. Of course this does not account for anecdotal evidence, millions who don't report any harmful side effects, previous health problems, differing medications and many other variables that are obscured when posted to anonymous internet forums. And of then you have the lovely negative placebo effect which obscures things even further. On the other hand, when a supplement is advertised, they don't have to list the same side effects at all. This has the tendency to create the illusion that vitamins and supplements are devoid of deleterious health effects, because they are not bound by the same stringent standards. And since they are not regulated, nobody is doing any testing on them. Unless that testing is paid for by the supplement manufacturer, and you're not going to find anything but glowing results there. So whatever sort of havoc they are making on a person's body chemistry is going undetected. And let us not even go into the realm of health shows. That's a thread in and of itself. I will say gently caress Dr. Oz in the rear end, though. Which then leads into the anti-vaccination bullshit. The combination of side-effects of rigorously tested medicines vs. 'natural cures' that are given free reign makes people with very poor science and critical thinking skills easily swayed. I mean, if you look at it, the natural cures are very tempting. Everyone has had modern medicine fail them and their loved ones. With the natural stuff, there's no ambiguity. It just works. There's no side effects and it has conquered the bodies mysteries while science is still fumbling in the dark. Though, in reality, these are the people that would have bought the Radium Ore Revigator and drank themselves to death, smiling. Dapper Dan fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Feb 9, 2015 |
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Feb 9, 2015 19:10
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What I'm saying is that by far the most profit pharmaceutical industry makes is from making actual drugs. Those are the expensive poo poo they make. Vaccines, by comparison, are ridiculously cheap and you get 1 or 2 shots in your entire life, and that's that. The people who profit the most from this whole vaccine scare is Big Pharma. Makes you think. Not really, but my point is, a lot of these nutcases are also vilifying ~Big Pharma~, because vaccines are poison and made by them, and at the same time doing them a gigantic favour by letting them sell a whole shitton more drugs than they would if everyone just got their shots.
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Feb 9, 2015 19:12
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Gifted programs are also often at least partially bullshit. For the ones I encountered over the years poor kids got in exactly never while the children of prominent locals would get in if the parents wanted it bad enough. The gifted programs were, for the most part, full of upper middle class to wealthy white kids. Some of them were legitimately smart (one I can think of in particular is now an astrophysicist) while others just had the right last name. I'm studying special ed; and only last semester did I realize the reason I was placed in GT was that I could read really early. I was in GT classes while most of my peers were doing phonics lessons or in reading classes, because I didn't need it, and they did. There is a strong correlation between poverty and delayed reading. Maybe your GT program was a bunch of corrupt poo poo; but even if it were run properly there'd be way more rich kids than poor kids in it.
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Feb 9, 2015 19:35
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Truga posted:What I'm saying is that by far the most profit pharmaceutical industry makes is from making actual drugs. Those are the expensive poo poo they make. Vaccines, by comparison, are ridiculously cheap and you get 1 or 2 shots in your entire life, and that's that. Yes. There was actually a series of reports in the late 90s early 2000s by the World Health Organization and the World Bank about how pharmaceutical companies invested too little on vaccines, because drugs aimed at treating diseases were far more profitable than vaccines. http://www.cgdev.org/doc/books/vaccine/MakingMarkets-complete.pdf http://www.who.int/bulletin/archives/79%288%29721.pdf In other words, these anti-vaccine idiots are precisely what "big pharma" loves: idiots who prefer profitable treatments based on existing medication instead of using the low profit/high R&D vaccine options.
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Feb 9, 2015 20:07
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Dapper Dan posted:Science is in fact designed to allow for the avoidance of absolutes. It is why scientists use the word 'theory' instead of 'law'. For the record, science does use laws. Laws are a smaller subset of repeatable observations of a theory that don't usually contain the reason why the observation is true, just a repeatable observation. Most laws can be expressed as a mathematical equation. A theory incorporates that and includes a proposed reason for why it's true.
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Feb 9, 2015 20:24
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fermun posted:For the record, science does use laws. Laws are a smaller subset of repeatable observations of a theory that don't usually contain the reason why the observation is true, just a repeatable observation. Most laws can be expressed as a mathematical equation. A theory incorporates that and includes a proposed reason for why it's true. The definition of "law", like the definition of "theory" and "research question" (and to a lesser extent, "hypothesis") actually varies quite heavily from field to field. In some disciplines it is indeed frowned upon to characterize anything as law.
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Feb 9, 2015 20:49
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VideoTapir posted:I'm studying special ed; and only last semester did I realize the reason I was placed in GT was that I could read really early. I was in GT classes while most of my peers were doing phonics lessons or in reading classes, because I didn't need it, and they did. I knew how to multiply before I started kindergarten, learned to read so early I don't even remember doing it, and had a college-level vocabulary when I was 6. I didn't get into gifted because I lived in a trailer park and "the gifted bus doesn't run that way." Now I'm an honors student in college studying computer science, math, and art and doing quite well at it but still...that's something I'll never forget. Granted I also look poor as hell because, you know, I am, and remember getting That Look when I sat down to apply for honors. The person in charge at the time got this haughty look and said "well you need to have a certain GPA to get in." I just smiled while she looked and came back with a 4.0. Her opinion changed rather quickly but I remember getting That Look in the past when I'd complain that I was bored out of my damned skull in school but wasn't allowed to complain about that because I wasn't in gifted. I'd repeatedly be told I had "bad attitude" when I'd struggle to pay attention when we were learning to multiply in third grade because I, you know, learned it years before that. I had to claw and fight to get myself into Smart Person Land and all told the only reason I'm in college at all was a stupid stroke of dumb luck. It wasn't just that there were more rich kids than poor kids it's that there were literally no poor kids. I switched districts later when I moved (really poor people move around a lot) and the second one was less bullshit but even then I wasn't put in because I wasn't in one before. That crap has pretty long-running repercussions and the poor can get hosed hard.
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Feb 9, 2015 22:09
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ToxicSlurpee posted:I knew how to multiply before I started kindergarten, learned to read so early I don't even remember doing it, and had a college-level vocabulary when I was 6. Is that even possible? I just screwed around for the entirety of K12. Actually, it was in 4th grade when I got in trouble that they discussed putting me in a GT program or something but never did, and in high school when I got in trouble they administered one of those IQ tests with a professional that took two days. One time I even passed out and they said it was because I was so perceptive (the teacher was describing a gruesome accident he had witnessed when he was a police officer.) I couldn't get a 4.0 at gunpoint. So acting out maybe how to do it
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Feb 9, 2015 22:35
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ToxicSlurpee posted:I knew how to multiply before I started kindergarten, learned to read so early I don't even remember doing it, and had a college-level vocabulary when I was 6. I didn't get into gifted because I lived in a trailer park and "the gifted bus doesn't run that way." Now I'm an honors student in college studying computer science, math, and art and doing quite well at it but still...that's something I'll never forget. I remember that look when I was applying to a really good private high school. It's weird, in my school district there was certainly a "poor" side and a "rich" side, but we were split right down the middle. It was more the issue that most of us had birthdays in Aug/Sept/Nov than anything else. I've always liked the idea of starting a new class of people every half year to deal with that issue.
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Feb 9, 2015 22:38
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ToxicSlurpee posted:I knew how to multiply before I started kindergarten, learned to read so early I don't even remember doing it, and had a college-level vocabulary when I was 6. I didn't get into gifted because I lived in a trailer park and "the gifted bus doesn't run that way." Now I'm an honors student in college studying computer science, math, and art and doing quite well at it but still...that's something I'll never forget. That is totally counter-productive bullshit, and I'm sorry you went through it. There were certainly poor, or at least working-class, kids in the G/T program in Calgary, as it should be, because it should be about teaching kids in the way they learn best (like any special ed program), rather than catering exclusively to a bunch of kids that are already not only gifted but extremely knowledgeable or well-educated. As often as not, the kids who were identified as gifted due to their previous academic achievement ended up in IB or something instead. EDIT: And it was certainly the case that most people who ended up getting tested got their initial referral for acting out, or other issues entirely. I ended up getting tested and coded as gifted when I was originally being tested to see how bad my cerebral palsy was going to gently caress my education up from possibly not being able to write or stuff like that. PT6A fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Feb 9, 2015 |
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Feb 9, 2015 22:40
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Truga posted:What I'm saying is that by far the most profit pharmaceutical industry makes is from making actual drugs. Those are the expensive poo poo they make. Vaccines, by comparison, are ridiculously cheap and you get 1 or 2 shots in your entire life, and that's that. Well, technically, by selling you vaccines which will stop you from dying to highly lethal, often childhood illnesses, the are prolonging your life and increasing the likelihood that you will become old, both of which means they have much longer to sell you stuff to stave off the large number the non-vaccinatable illnesses you might acquire in your lifetime.
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Feb 9, 2015 22:43
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Pegged Lamb posted:Is that even possible? It is incredibly possible, I'm no genius but I read the Divine Comedy at age 6 and could also add, subtract, multiply and divide single digit numbers. I couldn't tie my shoes by myself though.
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Feb 9, 2015 22:44
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Does anybody remember learning to read? I thought everyone forgot that.
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Feb 9, 2015 22:47
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ToxicSlurpee posted:I knew how to multiply before I started kindergarten, learned to read so early I don't even remember doing it, and had a college-level vocabulary when I was 6. I didn't get into gifted because I lived in a trailer park and "the gifted bus doesn't run that way." Now I'm an honors student in college studying computer science, math, and art and doing quite well at it but still...that's something I'll never forget. GT had its own bus? WTF? Christ, even most of the special ed kids (the mild and moderate ones, anyway) rode the big bus where I grew up. Where did you grow up so I know never to go there? Pegged Lamb posted:Is that even possible? Yes. I knew a 4 year old who last I checked was well on her way to at least the multiplying by kindergarten. I think ToxicSlurpee might be exaggerating about the vocabulary, but he could very well have had some advanced vocab.
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Feb 9, 2015 22:48
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VideoTapir posted:GT had its own bus? WTF? Christ, even most of the special ed kids (the mild and moderate ones, anyway) rode the big bus where I grew up. That's what I meant, the vocab part. I remember 7th-8th grade being a precocious time to have college level vocab, but maybe the bar has dropped
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Feb 9, 2015 22:52
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VideoTapir posted:GT had its own bus? WTF? Christ, even most of the special ed kids (the mild and moderate ones, anyway) rode the big bus where I grew up. Rural Pennsylvania. The scenery is beautiful and I like the climate when it isn't summer but everything else about the state basically sucks. At least land is cheap. It's a swing state because we have some extremely liberal urban areas but the rest of the state is a rusting, conservative wasteland covered in coal mine drainage and abandoned buildings. Not exaggerating far as I know. We did this standardized test that I don't remember all the details of but we were told to not worry about it if we didn't know all the answers. When we got the results back we were told we'd either see a K or a number and it would tell us about where we were at. It tested vocabulary, grammar, spelling, math and what have you. It obviously didn't get into anything crazy like trigonometry or just what the hell a gerund is but anyway. When we got the results back mine said "PHS" in every category and I was confused. So I asked what that meant and the teacher said "post high school." In grades after that I'd rarely, if ever, get a dictionary for vocabulary because I knew all the words already and in second grade the teacher would take my spelling tests to use as a key because they were almost always perfect.
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Feb 9, 2015 22:55
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One of my proudest possessions is a spelling bee award with my name spelled incorrectly on it.
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Feb 9, 2015 22:57
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OwlFancier posted:Does anybody remember learning to read? I thought everyone forgot that. Yes, my parents had this big book of Dr. Seuss stories they would read to me. Then later on they handed me the book and had me read it and helped correct words I was having problems saying. Later they would type up the story into the computer and make sure I could read it without their help or the help of pictures. I got prizes for each one I was able to read the typed up version of without help.
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Feb 9, 2015 22:58
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Gifted programs are also often at least partially bullshit. For the ones I encountered over the years poor kids got in exactly never while the children of prominent locals would get in if the parents wanted it bad enough. The gifted programs were, for the most part, full of upper middle class to wealthy white kids. Some of them were legitimately smart (one I can think of in particular is now an astrophysicist) while others just had the right last name. Man in my case that is the exact opposite in terms of racial demographics A lot of them wound up doing well though. Like 50+ percent of my class had beyond a bachelor's degree. Pretty crazy come to think of it.
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Feb 9, 2015 23:10
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Pegged Lamb posted:Is that even possible? And the reading and math stuff, too. My very early education was a product of the USSR, and we were learning multiplication tables in kindergarten like it was normal (which it was, and maybe should be). And while he can't outright read at this point, he can recognize all letters in both cases, and can spell out words he sees (and has lately been demonstrating an ability to recognize a word he has seen before without having to spell it letter by letter). So, yeah, it's definitely possible. Having drifted this far off topic, here's some content that appeared on my FB wall today even though it was posted by someone I don't know nor am friends with (probably because FB has noticed me being active in vaccine-related threads and because a friend of mine commented on it): http://healthimpactnews.com/2011/new-study-vaccinated-children-have-2-to-5-times-more-diseases-and-disorders-than-unvaccinated-children/ "New Study: Vaccinated Children Have 2 to 5 Times More Diseases and Disorders Than Unvaccinated Children" What you need to know: This *new* study from 2011 compares disease rates among children in the general *German* population to *self-reported survey results* from *mostly American respondents,* allowing the writers (and posters) of the article to conclude that, "many children and adults have diseases and disorders that are vaccine induced." 
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Feb 9, 2015 23:14
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Pegged Lamb posted:That's what I meant, the vocab part. I remember 7th-8th grade being a precocious time to have college level vocab, but maybe the bar has dropped When you grow up reading books 24/7 because you live in a lovely boonie of a country town, that's pretty much all you've got is vocab. I'd read books in like 1 day and teachers wouldn't believe me until I did the AR quiz things that we did. If like 70% of the grade did enough AR quizzes, we'd get a pizza party at the end of the year 
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Feb 9, 2015 23:29
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GreyPowerVan posted:When you grow up reading books 24/7 because you live in a lovely boonie of a country town, that's pretty much all you've got is vocab. I'd read books in like 1 day and teachers wouldn't believe me until I did the AR quiz things that we did. If like 70% of the grade did enough AR quizzes, we'd get a pizza party at the end of the year
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Feb 9, 2015 23:59
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My family was super poor and school was pretty terrible. Learned to read via Whinny The Pooh books on tape + books that we got from goodwill or my grandma bought us. I was reading pretty well before kindergarten other than some weird pronunciation issues. Also I absolutely loved that book it program where you got bonuses for every book you turned in a book report for. I was turning in everything like mad. I would go to the library and read every day if I could.
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Feb 10, 2015 00:12
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Just wanna chip in and say that I was an Extremely Smart child and was basically reading a post-graduate level by the age of 4.
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Feb 10, 2015 00:16
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Oh god. We all got vaccinated and we are all autists. It all makes sense!
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Feb 10, 2015 00:16
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...goons. That is all.  Well, not quite all. It's worth remembering that autism, like most things in the DSM, is badly defined and its causal mechanisms aren't understood. It's likely or probable that autism is in fact a number of different neurological etiologies with similar symptoms, all of which have been classified into one spectrum disorder. Hyperlexia and its supposed overlap with autism is one example of this- here's one incredibly tentative approach to the set of issues involved int he classification. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Feb 10, 2015 |
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Feb 10, 2015 00:18
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DrBouvenstein posted:An article regarding vaccination rates at some VT schools. 50% pfft that's nothing.  http://www.opb.org/news/article/oregon-has-highest-vaccine-exemption-rate-in-us/#FindSchool Sort by percent. gently caress Eugene.
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Feb 10, 2015 01:07
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Discendo Vox posted:Well, not quite all. It's worth remembering that autism, like most things in the DSM, is badly defined and its causal mechanisms aren't understood. It's likely or probable that autism is in fact a number of different neurological etiologies with similar symptoms, all of which have been classified into one spectrum disorder. Hyperlexia and its supposed overlap with autism is one example of this- here's one incredibly tentative approach to the set of issues involved int he classification. Symptom presentation is categorized on the basis of observed behaviours for mental disorders, and it is incredibly difficult to assess if there is some casual agent to them. This is because we don't really possess much knowledge at all about how environment/ontological interactions impact a human. Thus, it becomes incredibly easy to start pointing to other potential sources of cause, as with a lack of evidence to replace the claim with the correct cause (only refute the specific claim being made), someone who strongly believes that whatever they are saying is causing this or that will attack the lack of an alternative explanation. It also doesn't help that that actual definitions of mental disorders themselves are not static, and thus make overlap occur simply because practitioners fall into favour of particular interpretations. For me, this whole surge of anti-anti-vaxx discussion is demonstrating precisely why the original movement was able to gain the traction it did. Tons of blind pointing to general research without explanation for why individual studies are insufficient, intellectual authoritarianism, and a general hostility that, even if it is a reverberation of anti-vaxx hostility, does little to garner an audience.
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Feb 10, 2015 01:09
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Coolwhoami posted:Symptom presentation is categorized on the basis of observed behaviours for mental disorders, and it is incredibly difficult to assess if there is some casual agent to them. This is because we don't really possess much knowledge at all about how environment/ontological interactions impact a human. Thus, it becomes incredibly easy to start pointing to other potential sources of cause, as with a lack of evidence to replace the claim with the correct cause (only refute the specific claim being made), someone who strongly believes that whatever they are saying is causing this or that will attack the lack of an alternative explanation. It also doesn't help that that actual definitions of mental disorders themselves are not static, and thus make overlap occur simply because practitioners fall into favour of particular interpretations. Yup. The feedback effects are really frustrating, and made worse by the clinician-researcher divide in literacy and use. The worst part is that although there are some ways the whole system could definitely be improved, the fundamental causal black box problems don't have any clear solutions.
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Feb 10, 2015 01:14
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Truga posted:Not really, but my point is, a lot of these nutcases are also vilifying ~Big Pharma~, because vaccines are poison and made by them, and at the same time doing them a gigantic favour by letting them sell a whole shitton more drugs than they would if everyone just got their shots. Unfortunately the argument is now "vaccines are making us sick so big pharma can sell more drugs, if vaccines didn't exist no one would get sick and big pharma wouldn't make any money!!!"
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Feb 10, 2015 02:51
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Madmarker posted:Yes, my parents had this big book of Dr. Seuss stories they would read to me. Then later on they handed me the book and had me read it and helped correct words I was having problems saying. Later they would type up the story into the computer and make sure I could read it without their help or the help of pictures. I got prizes for each one I was able to read the typed up version of without help. Odd. Though then again I don't remember much prior to the age of twelve and not much more between then and sixteen so that's not too surprising I guess. The only part I remember about reading was that we had a thing at school where you had to read with the teacher, which I quickly figured out where the box full of name cards was kept and moved mine to the back every few days because I thought reading out loud was stupid. Also we had books graded by colour based on how difficult they were and I got annoyed because I wasn't allowed into the black library until I entered upper school so I had to read dumb books about caterpillars unless I brought my own in. I think I still have one of the black books from the library somewhere. Oh and I loving loved the Redwall books when I was a kid, I must have had about twenty or thirty of them. I think that must have been mostly what I read growing up. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Feb 10, 2015 |
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Feb 10, 2015 03:11
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I don't know if anyone here in Canada listens to CBC radio, but this morning, Anna Maria Tremonti walked all over an anti-vaxxer in a way that only a truly great interviewer can. http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/episode/2015/02/09/vaccinations-pro-and-anti-vaxxer-parents-make-their-cases/
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Feb 10, 2015 03:30
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