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Why are you idiots even responding to fishmech
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Feb 11, 2015 00:01
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Alain Post posted:Well, if your criterion for beating a .wad is beating the last level (which is pretty reasonable), IDCLEV trivializes a majority of the work you have to do to get there. The only thing trivializing the game is you, the guy who declares the only things that matter is having health, ammo, and keys, to be quite frank. Carmack and friends spent an awful lot of time coding things that aren't that. You might as well bitch that being able to load wads that are just an exit switch to press in front of spawn means that player wads trivialize the game. Zaphod42 posted:You keep acting like everything is binary, black & white thinking. There's degrees. Yes.
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Feb 11, 2015 00:02
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Alain Post posted:By this standard, it's only appropriate to say that something trivializes a game if it like, beats the game for the player without any input required. You're right that there are degrees- and that's why people don't hold that phrase to that silly standard. What phrase and what standard exactly? I think we're having a couple related conversations at once and its kinda confusing the message. I've already said that I don't feel cheats are a 'core mechanic'. I was just replying directly to your previous post where you said it trivialized the entire game because you can use IDKFA over and over, just clarifying that.
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Feb 11, 2015 00:03
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Nintendo Kid posted:The only thing trivializing the game is you, the guy who declares the only things that matter is having health, ammo, and keys, to be quite frank. Carmack and friends spent an awful lot of time coding things that aren't that. I wasn't implying that they're the only things that matter. I was implying that they matter a great deal, to the point where removing them would make the game trivial. And if I were reviewing those levels, I would, indeed, call them "trivial". And bad.
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Feb 11, 2015 00:05
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Zaphod42 posted:What phrase and what standard exactly? What this insane derail is currently arguing is that it's inappropriate to say something trivializes a game unless it 100% trivializes to the extent that it leads to a win condition without any futher player input (that's my definition, though I'm assuming that's what is being used). I think that's ludicrous and an overly restrictive standard. If something trivializes (and I hate to get into numbers here, but) 75% of the game's core mechanics, then I think it's fine to say that it trivializes the game.
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Feb 11, 2015 00:07
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RyokoTK posted:Why are you idiots even responding to fishmech It's almost a compelling discussion. So close, and yet so far. e: vvv 
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Feb 11, 2015 00:07
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Feb 11, 2015 00:08
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Alain Post posted:What this insane derail is currently arguing is that it's inappropriate to say something trivializes a game unless it 100% trivializes to the extent that it leads to a win condition without any futher player input (that's my definition, though I'm assuming that's what is being used). See, I don't think anybody here is saying that. You've taken what we were kinda saying and pushed it further than we meant it. (Or maybe somebody else feels that way, but I certainly don't give a gently caress about it)
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Feb 11, 2015 00:08
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Zaphod42 posted:See, I don't think anybody here is saying that. The idea that cheats don't trivialize Doom becuase the player still has to go through the effort of hitting the exit switch is exactly what is being argued.
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Feb 11, 2015 00:09
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Alain Post posted:The idea that cheats don't trivialize Doom becuase the player still has to go through the effort of hitting the exit switch is exactly what is being argued. Which cheats? Trivialize it how? I mean, now we're getting into the definition of "trivialize" which is pretty dumb. The official definition "make (something) seem less important", yeah it totally does that. I already said cheats aren't a core mechanic, and I said you were right that it trivializes the mechanics related to health. So by that definition it trivializes aspects of the game. Absolutely. Does it completely trivialize the game though? I have to say no to that. That makes it sound like no fun can be had from the game, and like there is no possible skill. Like I already explained, mechanics like the DMC style system / THPS score system / Demonsteele score system can give you a goal and a challenge completely irrelevant of health and survival and death mechanics. I was saying though that I like playing with IDDQD (but not anything else) and going for 100% kills as fast as I can. You can't say that doesn't have challenge, it does. Maybe its not your cup of tea, and hey, that's cool. Different strokes for different folks. If you think that is functionally equivalent to turning on noclip and hitting the end game button, you're either insane or you're willfully ignoring me. That was never the discussion.
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Feb 11, 2015 00:12
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Feb 11, 2015 00:14
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Alain Post posted:The idea that cheats don't trivialize Doom becuase the player still has to go through the effort of hitting the exit switch is exactly what is being argued. I believe that the entire concept of trivializing Doom is stupid and belongs in the trash, especially considering how the game's evolved over the past 2 loving decades.
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Feb 11, 2015 00:17
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Nintendo Kid posted:IDKFA doesn't flip all switches in the correct order to end the level. Some levels are designed such that ending them through just noclipping is impossible. Even then, they make it so you only need to figure out what the correct order is. As a sidenote, the damaging sector type that goes through godmode also seems to be the same damaging sector type that ends the level. Nintendo Kid posted:A distinction without a difference. I'd argue that gory aesthetics were a core feature of Doom. Yet they're not a core mechanic. Zaphod42 posted:Not that anybody particularly cares, but when I do IDDQD runs I almost never use IDKFA, and I definitely never repeat IDKFA throughout the level to top off on BFG, and I don't use IDNOCLIP. The argument is that cheat codes are intended to be used because they are in the game, that a playthrough that uses cheats is a normal playthrough. I refute that by saying that the cheat codes present in Doom trivialize the whole game. It is not a statement on what people use on cheat runs or anything else. However, by trivializing the health aspect you do trivialize the combat (not that it matters.) Zaphod42 posted:Trivialize it how? I mean, now we're getting into the definition of "trivialize" which is pretty dumb. The definition I'm using is "make something less complex." I'm also only looking at it from a gameplay perspective.
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Feb 11, 2015 00:18
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Nintendo Kid posted:I believe that the entire concept of trivializing Doom is stupid and belongs in the trash, especially considering how the game's evolved over the past 2 loving decades. Why? Pretty much all popular games will inspire degenrate play- that doesn't mean we can't continue to evaluate the core ruleset.
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Feb 11, 2015 00:22
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Falsum posted:The definition I'm using is "make something less complex." I'm also only looking at it from a gameplay perspective. Ergo, having difficulty settings trivializes the game. gently caress you for inventing Hurt Me Plenty, John Romero! Alain Post posted:Why? Pretty much all popular games will inspire degenrate play- that doesn't mean we can't continue to evaluate the core ruleset. Ok so you're literally gaming hitler now. Nice.
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Feb 11, 2015 00:24
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Nintendo Kid posted:
By degenerate, I mean play that departs from the original game structure to the point where it doesn't really resemble what "normal" play of the game system looks like- I don't mean it as a pejorative.
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Feb 11, 2015 00:26
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What is up with goons calling other people neo-nazis over game design.Nintendo Kid posted:Ergo, having difficulty settings trivializes the game. gently caress you for inventing Hurt Me Plenty, John Romero! Well really, I was using the french definition of the verb (which is "to turn something overly simple", making the english verb one hell of a false friend). A key difference between iddqd and Hurt Me Plenty is that you can die as a result of non-extreme edge cases in Hurt Me Plenty.
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Feb 11, 2015 00:28
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Alain Post posted:By degenerate, I mean play that departs from the original game structure to the point where it doesn't really resemble what "normal" play of the game system looks like- I don't mean it as a pejorative. So you do mean it as a pejorative then.  1937: Alain Post visits the Degenerate Gaming expo to examine people playing Doom after pressing IDDQD Falsum posted:What is up with goons calling other people neo-nazis over game design. The Nazis literally called art they didn't like "degenerate art"
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Feb 11, 2015 00:29
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It's actually OK to say that playing on I'm Too Young To Die trivializes the game to an extent. This is completely separate from the long-forgotten conversation that differentiated cheat codes from game mechanics, but there you go.
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Feb 11, 2015 00:29
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Nintendo Kid posted:The Nazis literally called art they didn't like "degenerate art" They also literally called themselves socialists.
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Feb 11, 2015 00:30
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Degenerate has plenty of definitions, none of them nationalist nor socialist.
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Feb 11, 2015 00:31
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Feb 11, 2015 00:32
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Falsum posted:Degenerate has plenty of definitions, none of them socialist nor nationalist. Degenerate is not a word with any sort of neutral connotation, it pretty exclusively means a thing that you hate and everyone else should hate too.
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Feb 11, 2015 00:33
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Nintendo Kid posted:Degenerate is not a word with any sort of neutral connotation, it pretty exclusively means a thing that you hate and everyone else should hate too. The term "degenerate play" pops up frequently in discussions on game design. I didn't just invent it to make people look bad.
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Feb 11, 2015 00:34
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Alain Post posted:The term "degenerate play" pops up frequently in discussions on game design. Among people who are judgmental assholes, mostly. Who want to ruin other people's fun.
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Feb 11, 2015 00:36
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Nintendo Kid posted:Degenerate is not a word with any sort of neutral connotation, it pretty exclusively means a thing that you hate and everyone else should hate too. I still don't see the connection to Hitler, whom many people would actually call a degenerate.
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Feb 11, 2015 00:37
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Falsum posted:I still don't see the connection to Hitler, whom many people would actually call a degenerate. Read a history book sometime: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_art "Degenerate Art"/"Entartete Kunst" is what they called all art they didn't like. It was publicly destroyed, and they even held exhibitions of it before they destroyed pieces in order to show people what evil art was.
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Feb 11, 2015 00:39
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Nintendo Kid posted:Among people who are judgmental assholes, mostly. Who want to ruin other people's fun.
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Feb 11, 2015 00:39
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Korendian Leader posted:Okay we get it, you're opposed to any sort of critical discussion. Grow up lad. "People who don't play games like I think they should are degenerate" is not critical discussion in the least.
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Feb 11, 2015 00:41
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Nintendo Kid posted:"People who don't play games like I think they should are degenerate" is not critical discussion in the least. Not what I said. "Degenerate play" describes play that deviates from the basic assumptions on how play should be conducted. This can be both harmless fun, or damaging (in multiplayer games, especially).
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Feb 11, 2015 00:42
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Alain Post posted:Not what I said. "Degenerate play" describes play that deviates from the basic assumptions on how play should be conducted. This can be both harmless fun, or damaging (in multiplayer games, especially). Thanks a lot, you gaming fascist. t 
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Feb 11, 2015 00:44
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Nintendo Kid posted:Read a history book sometime: Personally I'd blame the act, not the word, but to each his own. By the way, this is not the context in which Alain used 'degenerate'. The wrong context also uses the wrong definition of the word. Falsum fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Feb 11, 2015 |
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Feb 11, 2015 00:44
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Alain Post posted:Not what I said. "Degenerate play" describes play that deviates from the basic assumptions on how play should be conducted. This can be both harmless fun, or damaging (in multiplayer games, especially). It's a term used by assholes who are upset over players not playing games as exactly as they want them played. It implicitly considers them to be playing "worse" for no good reason. You are calling people degenerate when you say what they do is degenerate. You've been on here for a while so you can't have just learned English. Falsum posted:Personally I'd blame the act, not the word, but to each his own. "Degenerate play" is the exact sense of "degenerate" used in the term "degenerate art" - it's play that's not what they like, just like it was art that is not what they liked.
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Feb 11, 2015 00:45
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Feb 11, 2015 00:46
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Nintendo Kid posted:It's a term used by assholes who are upset over players not playing games as exactly as they want them played. It implicitly considers them to be playing "worse" for no good reason. By this criterion, calling someone a bad player is calling them a bad person.
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Feb 11, 2015 00:46
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Wait, we've invoked Godwin's Law over use of the word "degenerate". ...
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Feb 11, 2015 00:46
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Zaphod42 posted:Which cheats? Trivialize it how? I mean, now we're getting into the definition of "trivialize" which is pretty dumb. You're just being pointlessly obtuse, now. It's obvious that being invincible makes a lot of the game trivial, why dance around that fact?
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Feb 11, 2015 00:47
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Alain Post posted:By this criterion, calling someone a bad player is calling them a bad person. Nah. Shadow Hog posted:Wait, we've invoked Godwin's Law over use of the word "degenerate". It's a literal Nazi way to refer to people Doing Things You Don't Like.
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Feb 11, 2015 00:49
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Amethyst posted:You're just being pointlessly obtuse, now. It's obvious that being invincible makes a lot of the game trivial, why dance around that fact? Its an important distinction to the topic at hand? I'm sorry but I disagree, I'm not being pointlessly obtuse. I was making a very clear and important point. Anyways between Nintendo Kid and Alain Post its pretty clear nobody wants to have a discussion, but just state their own beliefs over and over and over. So its pointless. Lets move on. Back to talking about how Brutal Doom is/isn't doomier than doom!
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Feb 11, 2015 00:49
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Nintendo Kid posted:"Degenerate play" is the exact sense of "degenerate" used in the term "degenerate art" - it's play that's not what they like, just like it was art that is not what they liked. I think there are two separate, but related contexts where this term is used- one of them usually involves strategy games, where the dominance of a certain strategy or tactic has the effect of making a large amount of the game meaningless, in a way that seems to have been clearly unintended. This is usually the result of designer oversight- the clearest example I can think of is ICS in certain games of Civilization. It's "obvious" that the designers didn't want players to poo poo out bad quality cities all over the map, but it's their fault that they failed to make a system that prevented this. In this case, the play is called "degenerate" because it has the effect of radically simplifying the game by eliminating the importance of many of its systems. The other context is when players act in ways that are contrarty to the assumptions of the game. In MP, this can be bad- if you've ever played a board game where someone ends up loving poo poo up becuase they aren't trying to win anymore, you know this. In SP, this is just harmless fun- like trying to stuff your house full of forks in Skyrim, or whatever. At this point, the player isn't trying to win- like I said, that's fine, becuase a huge part of the appeal of sandbox games is to have fun like this.
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Feb 11, 2015 00:51
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