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Jade Star posted:Hahaha no. Just no. Wow. Though I mean, it is funny watching everyone compare any strategy game that has come out in the last few years with X-Com. As Hard as I am for X-Com, and I am, see my LP, this is not more like X-Com than anything else. THE BAR posted:"Darkest Dungeon is a challenging gothic ROGUELIKE turn-based RPG." ErIog posted:Hahaha no. Just no. Wow. Though I mean, it is funny watching everyone compare any game that has come out in the last few years to a roguelike. As Hard as I am for roguelikes, and I am, see my Nethack ascensions, this is not more like a roguelike than anything else. Eh, I think you're all half-right and half wrong. The creators have also cited X-Com as an influence (I think in the Kickstarter pitch). It has the random dungeon generation of Rogue and individual character permadeath, which is probably enough for "like", but it doesn't have random item generation, it's a party game rather than single character, etc. On the other hand, it has the management-of-a-roster-of-soldiers and send-a-party-on-missions and base-building aspects of X-Com at least to an extent (and I suspect we'll get more on that front as the game is finished). The actual rank-position-gameplay of combat is fairly unique and original but probably owes more to . . . shudder . . . JRPGs than anything else.
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Feb 11, 2015 15:58
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I've never liked labeling like that, and I see their use of "roguelike" as more of a buzzword than anything, really.
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Feb 11, 2015 16:05
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The concept of permadeath applied to individual characters, with an immortal player overseer type character, even in the context of a fantasy-flavored game, has far more to do with X-Com than Roguelikes. In a roguelike, 'permadeath' means you lose all progress towards winning. It is a full-on loss condition. In this game, it means you lose a small portion of your investment towards winning, even with a party wipe. That is much, much closer to X-Com. The time investment and consequential degree of punishment for losing a fight is far different(aka far more lenient). The random generation is the only other 'roguelike' thing, but there are no randomly generated mystery consumables, no randomly generated equipment or trinkets, and the dungeon generation is very simple. The level of randomization is, again, quite a bit closer to X-Com's randomized character stats and level/enemy layouts than a roguelike. THE BAR posted:I've never liked labeling like that, and I see their use of "roguelike" as more of a buzzword than anything, really. LazyMaybe fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Feb 11, 2015 |
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Feb 11, 2015 16:06
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I dunno, game feels most like FTL without a loss condition. I'd consider that to be not x-com.
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Feb 11, 2015 16:44
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The thing is, what would adding a loss condition to this game entail? Would it really be something that a player that understands the game is gonna struggle with, or is it just gonna be another hurdle for new players to jump over in understanding the game?
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Feb 11, 2015 17:10
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Internet Kraken posted:The thing is, what would adding a loss condition to this game entail? Would it really be something that a player that understands the game is gonna struggle with, or is it just gonna be another hurdle for new players to jump over in understanding the game? That's the thing, almost any loss condition is just going to punish new players who aren't doing well, while not really having any impact on players who are already succeeding. I'm for keeping the game as-is, no loss condition. You can get TPKs really easily and lose your whole team of guys you've been working on, that's your loss condition. The overall campaign keeps going, that's a good thing. The game needs some more fixed story quests and enemies and the 4th and 5th dungeons will help a lot, but I don't want a loss condition personally.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:12
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Started a new campaign after a bunch of hilarious losses that were entirely my fault wrecked my original roster. First dungeon, new trinket! +15% bleed skills, +10% damage, Hellion only. No downsides! Week 15. Caravan at 5 heroes per week. Not a single Hellion ever.  On the bright side since the game saw fit to throw like 10 Lepers at me I eventually ended up with one with dungeon/warren bonuses, passive acc+, and thanks to a lucky buff in a dungeon, Fated! Can't wait to lose that guy to something stupid in an hour or two.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:15
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ErIog posted:It's not a roguelike at all. It's a strategy game. It has more similarities to X-Com than it does anything else. I get your X-com similarity in that the soldiers are expendable and your base is the persistent thing, but X-com's ongoing time thing bucks the trend. I agree it's nothing like a traditional western roguelike since you cannot game over at all.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:16
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X-COM effectively had no loss condition either, when you could inflate your monthly score by raiding landed supply ships pumping out laser rifles. E: and drown the skies in crafts, eliminating any chance at small scouts getting through, of course. THE BAR fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Feb 11, 2015 |
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Feb 11, 2015 17:17
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Hugoon Chavez posted:
The names fit into the world really well, as a bonus!
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Feb 11, 2015 17:21
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please tell me the other three are Raphael, Donatello and Leonardo.
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THE BAR posted:X-COM effectively had no loss condition either, when you could inflate your monthly score by raiding landed supply ships pumping out laser rifles. Roguelike discussions are weird, I don't know why people get caught up in them other than being an expert in classification. Darkest Dungeon is just an RPG with permadeath to me, and I don't think highly of the RPG components cause all the character customization is very shallow. I pretty much stay for the artistic style and to see numbers go up. And reading about other's peoples experiences cause it is easy to live vicariously.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:22
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X-COM does have a loss condition though, especially the remake. If you lose funding with too many countries you're in a really bad way, and if you lose funding with most/all of them I think its a straight game over, no?
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Feb 11, 2015 17:23
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Rascyc posted:I agree it's nothing like a traditional western roguelike since you cannot game over at all. Rascyc posted:Roguelike discussions are weird, I don't know why people get caught up in them other than being an expert in classification.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:23
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Zaphod42 posted:X-COM does have a loss condition though, especially the remake. If you lose funding with too many countries you're in a really bad way, and if you lose funding with most/all of them I think its a straight game over, no? Losing everyone is a game over in both, games, yes. Although I think you only need to lose, what, half the countries in the new one? It's been ages since I played it unmodded. E: Words like "roguelike" and "Metroidvania" are horrible monickers, and have lost whatever meaning people derived from them. THE BAR fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Feb 11, 2015 |
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Feb 11, 2015 17:26
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There are cave markings where the first men argued over roguelikes, and nothing has changed. Good luck to anybody trying to argue either way! I'm sure we will finally nail it down
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Feb 11, 2015 17:26
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Jesus, everybody shut the gently caress up. This isn't x-com. This isn't roguelike. This is Darkest Dungeon. It plays like Darkest Dungeon. There is no perfect comparison. Now everyone sheath your e-pen and get back to talking about your dungeon grinding woes.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:27
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IronicDongz posted:So it's nothing like a roguelike. IronicDongz posted:So it's nothing like a roguelike.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:28
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The Duggler posted:There are cave markings where the first men argued over roguelikes, and nothing has changed.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:28
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How do you choose what dungeon to go into? Is there some kind of logical progression in them? Or do I just choose what seems appropriate for the dudes I have ready? I assume that since dungeon generation is random, I can't really repeat a dungeon?
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Feb 11, 2015 17:30
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Honore_De_Balzac posted:Jesus, everybody shut the gently caress up. This isn't x-com. This isn't roguelike. This is Darkest Dungeon. It plays like Darkest Dungeon. There is no perfect comparison. Now everyone sheath your e-pen and get back to talking about your dungeon grinding woes. Seriously, less X-com this and Rogue-like that and more "I had to brainwash my Hellion to go to the brothel" tales please. Yesterday I downed the Wizened Hag and the Swine Prince back to back with the same party with no stress relief activities before hand. Talk about feeling full of swag. Next trip out, a routine "explore 90% of rooms" mission, takes out my best Bounty Hunter.  uXs posted:How do you choose what dungeon to go into? Is there some kind of logical progression in them? Or do I just choose what seems appropriate for the dudes I have ready? I assume that since dungeon generation is random, I can't really repeat a dungeon? If you're dudes aren't level 3 or higher stick to the green icon dungeons (lvl 1). If 3 or higher go for the tougher ones. Personally, I prefer the 90% of rooms quests because they are mad easy and you can get some great poo poo. 100% room battles isn't much harder, but I like avoiding battles if possible, hence the 90% explore preference. For Boss dungeons, either go in with your best party and figure out a strat or read up on the boss and go in prepared, your choice and it will alter how difficult it is for you. MacheteZombie fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Feb 11, 2015 |
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Feb 11, 2015 17:31
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uXs posted:How do you choose what dungeon to go into? Is there some kind of logical progression in them? Or do I just choose what seems appropriate for the dudes I have ready? I assume that since dungeon generation is random, I can't really repeat a dungeon? Its up to you (based on the quests that are currently available, which change every time you do one) Yep, just choose what seems appropriate for the team you have ready. You can't repeat a specific instance of a dungeon, no, but you can run the 4 major dungeons or dungeon-tilesets (however you want to look at it) as many times as you want. They're just gonna be a bit different each time. (Or a lot different, depending upon the quest)
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Feb 11, 2015 17:34
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uXs posted:How do you choose what dungeon to go into? Is there some kind of logical progression in them? Or do I just choose what seems appropriate for the dudes I have ready? I assume that since dungeon generation is random, I can't really repeat a dungeon? You can repeat all you want but eventually your high level dudes will say gently caress You! when you try to send them to lower level dungeons, so the game does try to keep you moving forward. You can always ignore that and just grab more people off the stage coach though.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:34
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MacheteZombie posted:Yesterday I downed the Wizened Hag and the Swine Prince back to back with the same party with no stress relief activities before hand. Talk about feeling full of swag. And only one day from retirement?
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Feb 11, 2015 17:35
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IronicDongz posted:It's actually really easy to nail down. A roguelike is a game which is like the game Rogue. If you cannot point at a game, then point at the game Rogue and say "these are similar", it's not a roguelike. 
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Feb 11, 2015 17:36
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Actually in my experience 100% room battles goes faster than 90% exploration, especially since the former ignores hallway battles. 90% exploration is pretty consistent, but there really aren't that many room battles at the end of the day. Sometimes you can't choose though.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:38
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Yeah I absolutely prefer 100% room battles because if you luck out you can be done in, like, three rooms. I would like to see some other quest objectives, though. Something like, "Hunt down the X!" And put a miniboss somewhere in the map you have to find. That could be fun. You could even have a miniboss that roams hallways like the Nemesis or a FOE. marshmallow creep fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Feb 11, 2015 |
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Feb 11, 2015 17:39
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Rascyc posted:Actually in my experience 100% room battles goes faster than 90% exploration, especially since the former ignores hallway battles. 90% exploration is pretty consistent, but there really aren't that many room battles at the end of the day. Sometimes you can't choose though. It really depends on the RNG hit you get for the dungeon being created, so my preference is based solely on the luck I've had. I've had 100% room battles where I've only had to fight one battle for like 6 rooms. I've also had the same 6 rooms feature 4 fights and hallway fights on top so that's colored my experience. Edit: I've had to abandon more 100% room battles than I have 90% explore.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:41
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Jade Star posted:Hahaha no. Just no. Wow. Though I mean, it is funny watching everyone compare any strategy game that has come out in the last few years with X-Com. As Hard as I am for X-Com, and I am, see my LP, this is not more like X-Com than anything else. You're right, it's only a squad-based, turn-based, class-based story-light game where you send guys on randomly generated combat missions which increase in difficulty to acquire resources that allows you to upgrade your base and guys, featuring permadeath, roster management, and between mission recovery as important elements. But Darkest Dungeon has swords.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:56
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How common is it to get the same trinket twice in the same dungeon? I got copies of the same trinket the other day. +10 to Stun chance, and two other things I can't remember off the top of my head. Common and the little picture is like a yarn ball or something.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:58
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IronicDongz posted:It's actually really easy to nail down. A roguelike is a game which is like the game Rogue. If you cannot point at a game, then point at the game Rogue and say "these are similar", it's not a roguelike. Because terms do not evolve over time.
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Feb 11, 2015 18:04
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oh god I care so much about how to label things ask me about music genres and why people avoid me both in real life and the internet
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Feb 11, 2015 18:07
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IronicDongz posted:It's actually really easy to nail down. A roguelike is a game which is like the game Rogue. If you cannot point at a game, then point at the game Rogue and say "these are similar", it's not a roguelike. That's not how language works I am afraid. The only loss condition I can think of a some kind of calender or clock where you can postpone the end with good play, but if you are too bad you run out of time/resources. Or you troops stress adds to your own somehow.
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Feb 11, 2015 18:08
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No man, we're really gonna get to the bottom of the issue, this time. What IS a rougelike? 
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Feb 11, 2015 18:19
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MacheteZombie posted:How common is it to get the same trinket twice in the same dungeon? All of my good trinkets are mission rewards.
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Feb 11, 2015 18:23
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I'd hate for there to be a definite failure state. The game feels much more reliant on RNG than XCOM, etc, and a lot of the fun comes from dysfunctional lunatics making up your ranks. If they were a total liability and risked the entire campaign, rather than just the dungeon runs they were involved with, that'd hurt it a lot I think.
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Feb 11, 2015 18:23
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Man the Bounty Hunter is pretty cool. I never used him before because I thought his kit looked like it was trying to do too much and I don't care much for the "mark" system, but a 100% damage modifier on hitting marked targets is pretty loving solid. I don't even pull things with him although it is handy maybe once a dungeon for where I am at. I just obliterate things that the Occultist marks up. Too bad I can't get the Occultist to go first in my turn order ever. SPD Stat!!!!!
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Feb 11, 2015 18:27
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Rascyc posted:Man the Bounty Hunter is pretty cool. I never used him before because I thought his kit looked like it was trying to do too much and I don't care much for the "mark" system, but a 100% damage modifier on hitting marked targets is pretty loving solid. I don't even pull things with him although it is handy maybe once a dungeon for where I am at. I just obliterate things that the Occultist marks up. Too bad I can't get the Occultist to go first in my turn order ever. His flashbang attack is almost all I use on him unless I need to pull something to him. Stunning anyone of my choosing is a phenomenal talent and has spared my teams much stress.
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Feb 11, 2015 18:32
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i love arguing about roguelikes and roguelike culture im also a big fat dumb loving moron
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Feb 11, 2015 18:34
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What, exactly, does Marking do when my Occultist does it to a guy?
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Feb 11, 2015 18:36
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MacheteZombie posted:His flashbang attack is almost all I use on him unless I need to pull something to him. Stunning anyone of my choosing is a phenomenal talent and has spared my teams much stress. Bounty hunter skill kit is really underappreciated. You get flashbang, cain pull, a 100% melee damage attack that can be used from any position while hitting any position and does +33% damage to stunned targets. The mark attack isn't really good unless you've got an occultist paired up with you, but when you can make it work it'll absolutely floor enemies. Edit: Night10194 posted:What, exactly, does Marking do when my Occultist does it to a guy? Nothing for the occultist. It doubles up on the bounty hunter's main attack though. I wonder if we'll get another class that can exploit marks when they release the rest of the classes. Arbalist and Houndmaster both seem like they could be a class that potentially have a "On marked target" attack. DeathSandwich fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Feb 11, 2015 |
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Feb 11, 2015 18:37
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