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dissss posted:You do know you can just ignore those paddle shifters right?
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Feb 11, 2015 13:30
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HotCanadianChick posted:So far Ford has managed to avoid the temptations of going all in on hybrids and are instead going bonkers with throwing turbos on everything instead, which I can definitely get behind. Say what? Don't they have several hybrids, including plug-in hybrids, at this point? And, shockingly, they managed to make them without purposely turning them into hideous piles of crap! You make a good point about being able to install a supercharger (or any charger) too. Living downtown and not driving much, I'm probably an ideal candidate for having an EV, but there aren't any chargers in my building's garage, and it would probably be an unbelievably expensive operation to retrofit all the parking stalls with even standard 110V power, especially considering each stall would have to be metered separately to be charged to a different electric bill. Also, why don't we have diesel-electric hybrids in place of gas-electric hybrids?
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Feb 11, 2015 15:54
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Genuinely curious as to what the thread feels like about the styling of the new Volt. My 2013 is rear end-ugly, but it gets the job done. I think the new one is significantly better looking.    (Other than the ridiculous  front end treatment...)
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Feb 11, 2015 16:19
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 Hyundai is stealing designs from the future. 
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Feb 11, 2015 16:37
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Those taillights immediately made me think of the 2012 civic sedan. Looks better than the previous gen though
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Feb 11, 2015 16:38
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Bajaha posted:Those taillights immediately made me think of the 2012 civic sedan. Looks better than the previous gen though It does look better, but I don't know if its enough to get me into a GM showroom.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:12
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HotCanadianChick posted:I don't like them as it seems every car company that starts selling a lot of hybrids and EVs ends up discontinuing all their fun cars and cranking up the beigemobile production. I don't think it's a coincidence that Toyota discontinued the MR-S and Celica around the same time the Prius took off, or that Honda killed the Integras and gave us the CR-Z and a fleet of CVT equipped Acuras as the consolation prize. Eh, this isn't entirely true. Toyota followed the money and have started producing niche fun cars again in recent years. The Integra became the RSX which died when the Civic Si became a better car for less money. Then you have Ford who have made a pretty strong commitment to their Hybrid line while expanding the hell out of their performance lineup. Or GM who have thrown a bunch of resources into the Volt and a ton of other resources into having Cadillac go after BMW. BMW has also adopted hybrid stuff, and so has Porsche. One of those companies no one will accuse of having lost sight of the enthusiast crowd. The other no one would have accused before reading the following: http://m.caranddriver.com/news/2016-bmw-2-series-gran-tourer-revealed-news Goons, the Bavarian sky has fallen. 
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Feb 11, 2015 17:39
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MrYenko posted:Genuinely curious as to what the thread feels like about the styling of the new Volt. Big improvement. Still not sexy, especially with that huge silver plastic poo poo in the front grille they stole from Acura (doesn't look good on any Acuras, either), but overall it's a lot better.
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Feb 11, 2015 19:17
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I can't be the only one who thinks all those cars would look so much better without the stupid plastic teeth in the grill.
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Feb 11, 2015 19:25
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PeterWeller posted:Eh, this isn't entirely true. Toyota followed the money and have started producing niche fun cars again in recent years. The Integra became the RSX which died when the Civic Si became a better car for less money. We're still waiting for something besides the FR-S (which they're not even building, since Subaru makes all of them and Toyota just rebadges them). The Civic Si isn't a very good car right now (the Civics I sat in at the auto show last weekend were abysmally dreary and cheap/outdated feeling inside, and they're charging more for them than what you pay for a Fiesta ST, which is a much torquier, faster car, and for the same money, you can get a Focus ST, which is miles ahead of the Si in terms of both performance and interior quality. quote:Then you have Ford who have made a pretty strong commitment to their Hybrid line while expanding the hell out of their performance lineup. Or GM who have thrown a bunch of resources into the Volt and a ton of other resources into having Cadillac go after BMW. BMW has also adopted hybrid stuff, and so has Porsche. One of those companies no one will accuse of having lost sight of the enthusiast crowd. The other no one would have accused before reading the following: No, I, among with many others, have felt BMW stopped being so enthusiast oriented several years ago when they started heavily pushing their 'Efficient Dynamics' marketing. It's been quite a while since any of their cars outside the M models have dominated comparisons and shootouts like they used to. Even C&D, the biggest BMW apologists on the planet, think the current lineup sucks. PT6A posted:Say what? Don't they have several hybrids, including plug-in hybrids, at this point? And, shockingly, they managed to make them without purposely turning them into hideous piles of crap! Ford does have Hybrids, but they haven't gone 'all in' like Toyota did (and they're not particularly heavily marketing them); they're using smaller turbocharged engines on all their models to up their EPA mileage without necessarily offering hybrid versions of everything, and I think it's a much more viable strategy at this point in the technological evolution of electric vehicles. Hybrid tech is really expensive and heavy to add to cars (and a lot of automakers are selling their hybrid and EV versions at or close to a loss), and if you can hit similar MPG targets by simply using undersized engines with a turbo (the Fiesta Ecoboost is the second most fuel efficient vehicle sold in the US, and it's not a hybrid, so it's definitely possible) and keeping the weight down, then it's a much better option for the consumer, as it can end up much cheaper to buy and maintain than a hybrid vehicle. The lightweight Fusion Ecoboost prototype they showed off looks a lot more promising than the standard Fusion Hybrid, as it got better mileage (45 mpg!) than the hybrid version(which only gets 37 mpg highway) just by using a tiny 1.0l EB engine and focusing on making the car as light as possible (it was roughly the same weight as a Fiesta), and I think that's the direction Ford is leaning more in right now vs. focusing on hybrids. http://www.motortrend.com/future/concept_vehicles/1406_ford_lightweight_concept_first_look/ http://jalopnik.com/ford-just-unveiled-a-fusion-that-weighs-as-much-as-a-fi-1585576176 Once some sort of Supercapacitor energy storage technology comes to market as a viable alternative to slow-charging NiMH/L-Ion/Li-Po/Lead Acid batteries and you can stop at a station and charge up in 5 minutes or less like you can with filling up a gas car without requiring swapping the entire battery tray as Tesla has proposed, that's when fully electric vehicles will become truly mainstream, but I think eventually hybrids will be a dead end; they're just not worth the extra expenses to make vs. just using refined, efficient turbo powerplants in lighter cars, and once a better power storage tech comes to fruition, there will be no reason to bother with hybrids since pure electric cars will be much better.
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Feb 11, 2015 19:32
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HotCanadianChick posted:Once some sort of Supercapacitor energy storage technology comes to market as a viable alternative to slow-charging NiMH/L-Ion/Li-Po/Lead Acid batteries and you can stop at a station and charge up in 5 minutes or less like you can with filling up a gas car without requiring swapping the entire battery tray as Tesla has proposed, that's when fully electric vehicles will become truly mainstream, but I think eventually hybrids will be a dead end; they're just not worth the extra expenses to make vs. just using refined, efficient turbo powerplants in lighter cars, and once a better power storage tech comes to fruition, there will be no reason to bother with hybrids since pure electric cars will be much better.
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Feb 11, 2015 19:54
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While this isn't exactly news, today I have learned that the 2016 redesign of the Audi Q5 is going to be built in Mexico  http://wot.motortrend.com/1407_we_hear_2016_audi_q5_2017_bmw_x3_will_get_new_engine_tech.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-05-02/audi-1-3-billion-mexico-suv-plant-aimed-at-unseating-bmw Quality control must be pretty easy from 6,000 miles, a language barrier and 7 time zones away. Why do they do this? Why would I pay a premium for a German-made car if it's made in Mexico? If I wanted that, I'd buy a VW.
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Feb 11, 2015 20:16
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Are you too good for a Mexican car or something? Anything less than a German built Audi is for the proles?
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Feb 11, 2015 20:22
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chupacabraTERROR posted:Audi Q5... If I wanted that, I'd buy a VW.
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Feb 11, 2015 20:23
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HotCanadianChick posted:We're still waiting for something besides the FR-S (which they're not even building, since Subaru makes all of them and Toyota just rebadges them). The Civic Si isn't a very good car right now (the Civics I sat in at the auto show last weekend were abysmally dreary and cheap/outdated feeling inside, and they're charging more for them than what you pay for a Fiesta ST, which is a much torquier, faster car, and for the same money, you can get a Focus ST, which is miles ahead of the Si in terms of both performance and interior quality. You're kinda missing the point to pick some nits. You're argument is that hybrids are bad because they lead car-makers astray. I pointed out that Toyota is slowly coming back to making fun niche cars and that Honda killed the Integra for reasons wholly unrelated to fuel efficiency. Then I listed four car makers who have committed to both electrics/hybrids and performance cars. You also missed that the bit about BMW was an, admittedly bad, joking segue into posting that atrocious BMW Rondo. I agree that they have generally lost their way, but it has less to do with efficiency and more to do with chasing every possible niche there is. And they still do cater to enthusiasts more than many other companies. It's just no longer their central focus. And just to pick some nits of my own: Toyota owns Subaru, pushed them to build the FRS, provided a not insignificant amount of engineering work, and did the styling, so to say they're just re-badging them is incorrect. And the Si has a better 0-60 time than the FiSTand costs 2 grand less than the FoST.
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Feb 11, 2015 20:32
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PeterWeller posted:Toyota owns Subaru... This is news to me...
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Feb 11, 2015 20:47
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Neptr posted:This is news to me... My bad. They own a chunk of the company that owns Subaru.
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Feb 11, 2015 20:57
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Mr. Wiggles posted:Are you too good for a Mexican car or something? Anything less than a German built Audi is for the proles? I own a Mexican-made Jetta, so I'm not sure what you're implying. Moving to Mexico (or any other country with a cheaper cost of labor) is 100% a cost-cutting measure. How could a buyer of this car not be concerned about a drop off in quality when they're cutting the input costs AND moving the manufacturing operation thousands of miles in 1 model year? There's nothing wrong with it being made in Mexico per se, but I was more lamenting the fact that 2016 will be a transition year for the car. The people making the 2016 model will be almost completely different than the people building the 2015 model - in other words, there may be a learning curve involved. I'd hope that a premium car manufacturer would maintain a certain level of quality control, but that's easier said than done.
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Feb 11, 2015 20:58
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Neptr posted:This is news to me...
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Feb 11, 2015 20:58
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InitialDave posted:It'd be news to Subaru, too, I expect. Toyota has a 16.5% stake in Subaru. Yeah, my mistake there. I though they had bought a much bigger chunk of FHI.
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Feb 11, 2015 20:59
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MrYenko posted:Genuinely curious as to what the thread feels like about the styling of the new Volt. I'm genuinely surprised at how good this looks, considering the last one and my general sentiment towards GM exterior design. That front end has to be painted black though, it's just too Hot Wheels Hideous for me. It's enough for me to cross shop it though, even though it will likely be too expensive for me.
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Feb 11, 2015 21:18
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chupacabraTERROR posted:I own a Mexican-made Jetta, so I'm not sure what you're implying. Moving to Mexico (or any other country with a cheaper cost of labor) is 100% a cost-cutting measure. How could a buyer of this car not be concerned about a drop off in quality when they're cutting the input costs AND moving the manufacturing operation thousands of miles in 1 model year? If you already own a Jetta then obviously quality really isn't a big concern for you anyway. Your precious Audi will be just as unreliable and terrible no matter where its made - quality control is just fine in Mexico.
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Feb 11, 2015 21:20
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Well this is not new but I just found out the STS-V exists. It is like a CTS-V but not for tiny people. Seems like a legit kid mover and should be my next car.
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Feb 11, 2015 21:21
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So cheap labor in Germany is better than cheap labor in Mexico? Do I get that right? Of course it's a cost cutting measure, but it goes beyond labor. You think it's cheap sending cars across an ocean?
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Feb 11, 2015 21:27
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Mr. Wiggles posted:If you already own a Jetta then obviously quality really isn't a big concern for you anyway. hahah fair enough on the first point. What alternative vehicle of superior quality would you recommend, Mr. Wiggles? KakerMix posted:So cheap labor in Germany is better than cheap labor in Mexico? Do I get that right? When they've already been trained and have built the car for years, yes.
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Feb 11, 2015 21:27
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chupacabraTERROR posted:hahah fair enough on the first point. What alternative vehicle of superior quality would you recommend, Mr. Wiggles? So then wait two years and buy a Mexico-born Audi! Then those Mexicans can hone their skills of 'weld here' and 'bolt this here' down to a fine art. EDIT Artisan Audi
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Feb 11, 2015 21:30
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chupacabraTERROR posted:hahah fair enough on the first point. What alternative vehicle of superior quality would you recommend, Mr. Wiggles? The Fiat 500L is manufactured in the Zastava Automobili plant in Kragujevac, Serbia, home of the famous and well built Zastava Koral. This may be a good choice, as this plant is famous for quality.
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Feb 11, 2015 22:01
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The early Mexican built VW's might have had some issues, but I haven't really heard anything negative for a few years now outside of anything that's just cost cutting by VW. You can have quality stuff made pretty much anywhere these days. You just have to be on top of the process and it might take a couple of years.
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Feb 11, 2015 22:10
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Mr. Wiggles posted:The Fiat 500L is manufactured in the Zastava Automobili plant in Kragujevac, Serbia, home of the famous and well built Zastava Koral. This may be a good choice, as this plant is famous for quality. The factory itself certainly looks top-notch -- it survived the dissolution of Yugoslavia and several NATO bombings. I do worry, however, about worker turnover and, for those who survived the wars, worker fatigue. I also question whether they can go toe-to-toe with the German cheap labor workforce, who obviously have been noted for their high quality Audi products. How this factory compares to its Mexican counterparts is the real question.
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Feb 11, 2015 22:18
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KakerMix posted:So cheap labor in Germany is better than cheap labor in Mexico? Hahahaha 'cheap' labour in Germany. No such thing. It's less about labour costs and more about getting in on that sweet, sweet NAFTA goodness. No tariffs for cars imported from Mexico or Canada. That combined with cheaper shipping makes it worth it regardless of whether or not they save money on labour. PeterWeller posted:I pointed out that Toyota is slowly coming back to making fun niche cars and that Honda killed the Integra for reasons wholly unrelated to fuel efficiency. Eh, the key word re: Toyota enthusiast cars is slowly. I'm still not entirely convinced they're ever going to return to making fun cars like they used to, and definitely not spending the kind of R&D money it takes to develop good sporty cars. The FR-S/BRZ were budget sporty cars engineered as cheaply as possible by removing the front differential from an Impreza and restyling the body; it's a good handling car and they did good with it, but it's not really the halo car they need - we still have seen and heard very little about the Supra successor apart from the one (very ugly and overstyled) prototype they've been trotting around. As far as Fiesta/Focus vs. Civic Si... well, find me any review that compares the two and finds the Civic to be the better car? It might be marginally quicker 0-60, but it's far less torquey (and you can easily catch the Fiesta ST up and above the Civic Si with flashing a new tune onto it, something that you can now do without voiding the warranty thanks to FRPP), and it's severely lacking in handling and chassis dynamics compared to either of the Fords or to the Mazda3. Handling and dynamics used to be Honda's strong suit, and now their lineup is largely flat. It remains to be seen still whether they'll deign to sell the Civic R in the US or not; it's a step in the right direction, but like Toyota, they need a bit more concrete effort to really start winning people back. And sure, the Focus ST MSRPs a few k above the Civic Si, but that's before you take into account x-plan pricing and the bajillion rebates and incentives Ford offers every year. It's far easier to get $2k knocked off the price of a Ford than it is to get a Civic for less than MSRP. And it still doesn't change that the current Civic is horribly outdated and plasticky inside compared to a lot of competitors. The newer Toyotas are similar, a lot of them have interior designs that belong somewhere in 2002, complete with faux-wood decals on every surface. Militant Lesbian fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Feb 11, 2015 |
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Feb 11, 2015 22:19
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Hellcat engines are made in Mexico, let's see German workers make something better for twice the price.
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Feb 11, 2015 22:21
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HotCanadianChick posted:Hahahaha 'cheap' labour in Germany. No such thing. Contextually Think there is a better chance that Honda will bring the Civic R over here? With the Golf R getting a lot of press for how good it is, and Ford hitting it hard with the STs and now with the RS, you'd think they might go "oh ok us too".
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Feb 11, 2015 22:22
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KakerMix posted:Contextually Well, I'd hope so, but then again, they never brought over the Civic Type-R despite it being made at the pinnacle of the 2F2F Honda tuner craze. So who knows?
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Feb 11, 2015 22:28
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You're still missing the forest for the trees. The comparison between the Si and STs is immaterial to your argument about hybrids and EVs. I said that was a nitpick because that's all it is. As for Toyota, don't start pretending they were some big performance brand in the past. They have never produced more than a handful of enthusiast cars at any one time. Their current enthusiast offerings are actually pretty par for their course: an affordable coupe that focuses on handling over power and an expensive coupe with the option for a lot of power. The only difference between now and the 90s is that they badge these offerings as Scions and Lexuses instead of Toyotas.
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Feb 11, 2015 22:34
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PeterWeller posted:You're still missing the forest for the trees. The comparison between the Si and STs is immaterial to your argument about hybrids and EVs. I said that was a nitpick because that's all it is. They definitely produced more than a handful; in the 80's alone you had the AE86 Corollas, the FX16 Corolla hatches, the MR2, the Celica, and the Supra. That's 5 sporty models that were all in simultaneous production, fully half their North American lineup (the other cars they made at the time were the Cressida, the regular FWD Corolla, the Camry, the LiteAce Van, and the Hilux Pickup). Even in the 90's you still had the Celica alltrac, the MR2, and the Supra. Their lineup is overwhelmingly less enthusiast oriented than it was 30, or even 20 years ago.
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Feb 11, 2015 22:42
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So I went on the internet and found this: The fwd 7-seater 2-series GT, because why the gently caress not
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Feb 11, 2015 22:53
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mobby_6kl posted:So I went on the internet and found this: BMW is dead sorry.
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Feb 11, 2015 23:01
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It's a minivan without the sliding doors.
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Feb 11, 2015 23:04
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I know they're in it to make money, but Jesus Christ.
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Feb 11, 2015 23:15
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mobby_6kl posted:So I went on the internet and found this:  Coincidence? I think not.
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Feb 11, 2015 23:16
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