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Nessus posted:'the character takes an unsoakable bashing health level from literal tongue twisting' Personally I prefer the character to just stay there motionless for a few moments, before muttering 'gently caress you' to the person who used those charms in the most hateful tone of voice they can possible manage. Then they walk away away with a negative intimacy and a splitting headache.
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Feb 11, 2015 05:21
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Bedlamdan posted:Personally I prefer the character to just stay there motionless for a few moments, before muttering 'gently caress you' to the person who used those charms in the most hateful tone of voice they can possible manage. Then they walk away away with a negative intimacy and a splitting headache. HOWEVER, you have a system with hundreds of highly specific magical effects so I'm gonna belabor that you probably ought to put a note somewhere about how to adjucate when they slam into each other like that. Even if it is in fact "consider the tone of your campaign and maybe consider the relative power behind each effect."
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Feb 11, 2015 05:25
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Nessus posted:Yeah this kind of thing seems like it'd depend a lot on the tone the GM is going for. You're most likely right, given that it's not that easy to pick up on the intentions behind this.
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Feb 11, 2015 05:45
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Bedlamdan posted:It does have that, actually. Look up the Leadership section on page 272. Honestly, it's a bit loose and doesn't always rely on Bureaucracy specifically, but this is the system that Bureaucracy Charms interact with. The thing is though that the section you're talking about not only doesn't once mention Bureaucracy (far from simply not always using it) it explicitly and repeatedly asserts that no Ability rolls are called for, that the ST should adjudicate solely in terms of what would be interesting, etc. It amounts to a thousand-ish cuttable words of GMimg advice. There's no there there. The word Bureaucracy doesn't appear once in the entire systems chapter in fact. Which is totally a valid choice, actually, the lack of system. I'm disappointed but it's hardly news. But if they're looking to cut content then that section... And the two Bureaucracy Charms that are mechanically merely less-efficient, less-generally applicable versions of the Socialize Excellency ... Those could go. Also the Charm that gives you one free Bureaucracy Excellency use per three-month period. Probably that wasn't laughable when there was an actual project management subsystem and those hooked in in some way.
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Feb 11, 2015 05:50
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drunkencarp posted:The thing is though that the section you're talking about not only doesn't once mention Bureaucracy (far from simply not always using it) it explicitly and repeatedly asserts that no Ability rolls are called for, that the ST should adjudicate solely in terms of what would be interesting, etc. It amounts to a thousand-ish cuttable words of GMimg advice. There's no there there. The word Bureaucracy doesn't appear once in the entire systems chapter in fact. My memory must've been really faulty on how they handled Bureaucracy then, my apologies.
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Feb 11, 2015 06:01
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Bedlamdan posted:My memory must've been really faulty on how they handled Bureaucracy then, my apologies. On the other hand, the Charm that compels an organization to accept you as a legit auditor, comply with your books and records request, and cough up all the discovery you can stomach? Pure genius and a terrific power fantasy. Or so the corporate litigation attorney I'm married to tells me.
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Feb 11, 2015 06:06
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Bedlamdan posted:You're most likely right, given that it's not that easy to pick up on the intentions behind this. drunkencarp posted:Also the Charm that gives you one free Bureaucracy Excellency use per three-month period. Probably that wasn't laughable when there was an actual project management subsystem and those hooked in in some way.
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Feb 11, 2015 06:14
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Zereth posted:I remember early on being told there were explicit plans from the start to not have an actual mechanical system for Bureaucracy to work with. Yep. And it made me sad.
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Feb 11, 2015 06:45
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Kenlon posted:Yep. And it made me sad. On the same lines is the lack of any actual rules for how a kingdom is going infrastructure/supply wise. How much does building this awesome aqueduct for your desert city help? 
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Feb 11, 2015 06:49
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Yeah, my assumption is that they struggled with a project management subsystem for a while, wrote some Charms, but couldn't get it to work. Then they ripped out the mechanical references to the subsystem, vestiges of which can be seen in the otherwise kind of inexplicable Leadership section, with its four mechanically-meaningless steps.
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Feb 11, 2015 06:56
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drunkencarp posted:Yeah, my assumption is that they struggled with a project management subsystem for a while, wrote some Charms, but couldn't get it to work. Then they ripped out the mechanical references to the subsystem, vestiges of which can be seen in the otherwise kind of inexplicable Leadership section, with its four mechanically-meaningless steps. Given that they told us, explicitly, in the precursor to this thread that they didn't want a mechanical system for large projects, I don't think they even went that far.
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Feb 11, 2015 07:04
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I remember them saying that. My supposition is that when they realized they couldn't make it work they doubled down on telling people what a terrible idea it was. These are the same people who gave us the rewrite of 2e's kingdom-ruling subsystem after all, as I pointed out at the time. Why they went with a public position of "you're stupid for wanting it" instead of "we tried and man it was either too abstract to be even a little useful or else it was a terrible straitjacket, game design is hard" I couldn't say.
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Feb 11, 2015 07:10
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I wonder how far you could get treating social infrastructure/organizations/traditions as "artifacts," using the crafting system and Evocations.
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Feb 11, 2015 07:16
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Kenlon posted:Given that they told us, explicitly, in the precursor to this thread that they didn't want a mechanical system for large projects, I don't think they even went that far.
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Feb 11, 2015 07:22
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drunkencarp posted:I remember them saying that. My supposition is that when they realized they couldn't make it work they doubled down on telling people what a terrible idea it was. These are the same people who gave us the rewrite of 2e's kingdom-ruling subsystem after all, as I pointed out at the time. Why they went with a public position of "you're stupid for wanting it" instead of "we tried and man it was either too abstract to be even a little useful or else it was a terrible straitjacket, game design is hard" I couldn't say. IIRC they did plan on releasing a supplement with actual kingdom management rules further down the line. So probably 2019. Fortunately for us, someone will leak it by the year 2018.
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Feb 11, 2015 07:23
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Oligopsony posted:I wonder how far you could get treating social infrastructure/organizations/traditions as "artifacts," using the crafting system and Evocations. This is cool and I'm going to read the charms for the relevant traits with this in mind.
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Feb 11, 2015 07:26
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Zereth posted:I remember early on being told there were explicit plans from the start to not have an actual mechanical system for Bureaucracy to work with. Yes. It was stupid. It's still stupid. Also the economics side of Bureaucracy needs more high-level charms. I get that they maybe want direction-shaking Economics to be a a project that your organization works on, but there's no real project/organization subsystem for Bureaucracy! It's all handwaving! Ferrinus posted:This is cool and I'm going to read the charms for the relevant traits with this in mind. Super tempted to make rules to treat Bureaucracy as Craft: Organization.
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Feb 11, 2015 07:38
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So I started on some Charm charts. Archery  Athletics  Awareness  Brawl  Bureaucracy  Craft  Dodge  Integrity  Investigation  Larceny  Linguistics  Lore  More to come.
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Feb 11, 2015 09:25
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Zereth posted:Me too. It kinda kills a lot of concepts like "Spymaster at the center of a web" when you don't have any actual mechanical strings to pull to cause things to happen. I said it months ago and I'll say it again; I really don't think that you should be tugging on an Organizations Cohesiveness score or whatever instead of manipulating Intimacies, to get people to do what you want. The focus of the game should, by default, stay driven by characters. I definitely am really skeptical that kingdoms should have stats you can affect, because at absolutely no point should you be entering a sort of Sid Meier volkgeist mode and playing "as" the kingdom.
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Feb 11, 2015 10:20
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:I said it months ago and I'll say it again; I really don't think that you should be tugging on an Organizations Cohesiveness score or whatever instead of manipulating Intimacies, to get people to do what you want. The focus of the game should, by default, stay driven by characters. I definitely am really skeptical that kingdoms should have stats you can affect, because at absolutely no point should you be entering a sort of Sid Meier volkgeist mode and playing "as" the kingdom. Having actually played as the kingdom in a FATE game before, there's no reason not to do it. It just has to be a tight and efficient system.
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Feb 11, 2015 10:48
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:I said it months ago and I'll say it again; I really don't think that you should be tugging on an Organizations Cohesiveness score or whatever instead of manipulating Intimacies, to get people to do what you want. The focus of the game should, by default, stay driven by characters. I definitely am really skeptical that kingdoms should have stats you can affect, because at absolutely no point should you be entering a sort of Sid Meier volkgeist mode and playing "as" the kingdom.
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Feb 11, 2015 10:56
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Nessus posted:Has D&D ever had a good crafting system? I cut my teeth on the old school AD&D and it was like "there is this sixth level spell, Create Magic Item. It takes a while and you need components. Also it wipes you out. Especially if you want to cast Permanency on it!" I kinda like 2e AD&D magic crafting, the permanent constitution cost of Permanency meant that you couldn't just be a factory crafting out magic artifacts and armaments, and the combined rarity of magical items and the quest-like nature of assembling the components for one further reinforced that it wasn't just a matter of throwing time and gold at kitting out everyone with +1 swords and armor. You'd likely remember the time your wizard went on an epic quest to find what he needed to make a powerful magical item. But it wasn't really much of a crafting "system," because players weren't really expected to make much use of it, and there wasn't any really... balancing to it? The balancing was supposed to be in the GM's demand for ingredients, a Vorpal Sword was going to require more rare and dangerous-to-acquire(dragon teeth or something, maybe) ingredients than a Ring of Infravision, but ultimately if the GM wanted he could've just said you could pop down to the corner store and pick up a bunch of canned magic item ingredients, pour them into the cauldron, dip the sword in it while chanting, pow, zap, artifact Holy Avenger in your hands. In 3e, the crafting system was finally a system, and while it worked to let you buy magical items for above 1st-level starting characters, and to later craft your own, it was, in my mind, a "bad" crafting system because it basically let someone be a factory for pumping out +1 longswords without any real fluff or detail and generally contributed to a feel that the streets were paved with Rings of Protection. DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:I said it months ago and I'll say it again; I really don't think that you should be tugging on an Organizations Cohesiveness score or whatever instead of manipulating Intimacies, to get people to do what you want. The focus of the game should, by default, stay driven by characters. I definitely am really skeptical that kingdoms should have stats you can affect, because at absolutely no point should you be entering a sort of Sid Meier volkgeist mode and playing "as" the kingdom. In the same way that some large units of scrub enemies sometimes get statted as one single enemy in combat(at least unless you want to go insane), why couldn't you do the same with groups in a society? But instead of combat stats, you give the craftsmen's guild of Nexus a group intimacy and social stats, to represent their political pull and interests. It's important to focus it on characters, but sometimes you'll want to abstract things a little, and even though you're attacking/manipulating the entire group's intimacies, you can still roleplay it as a visit to the guild's council where you either make a heartfelt plea or give them an offer they can't refuse or whatever's appropriate.
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Feb 11, 2015 11:01
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The Nexus craftsman's guild should be "represented" by an interesting character - their own leader, a middling God or spirit, a skilled Outcaste, etc. Gaining influence over them should be tied to charming, outdoing,or replacing whoever already has influence over them.
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Feb 11, 2015 11:13
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I just plan to throw Reign on top of it because although yes it should be mostly character focused, you should also be able to have some feedback as to how your various projects have an effect on your organization. Obviously all of this can be hand-waved by an ST, but having a system gives more to interact with as a player. You still have priority on the interpersonal relationships to give you the bonuses on your Company rolls with Reign. And it probably wouldn't be that hard to hook up the Bureaucracy charms to have them function with the Company system in Reign as well.
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Feb 11, 2015 11:48
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Roadie posted:*snip awesomeness* Behold the Charmohedron.
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Feb 11, 2015 12:51
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NIV3K posted:I just plan to throw Reign on top of it because although yes it should be mostly character focused, you should also be able to have some feedback as to how your various projects have an effect on your organization. Obviously all of this can be hand-waved by an ST, but having a system gives more to interact with as a player. You still have priority on the interpersonal relationships to give you the bonuses on your Company rolls with Reign. And it probably wouldn't be that hard to hook up the Bureaucracy charms to have them function with the Company system in Reign as well. Something light like the Reign Company system is exactly what's called for. Have you given any thought to how Backgrounds/Merits interact with it?
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Feb 11, 2015 17:23
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Ferrinus posted:Alright, I went and did: The funny part is that he must have really come around, because while I'm going through these Charms to make charts I'm seeing a lot of encounter and daily abilities. Of course, none of them actually use standardized mechanics or keywording for it, but I can't tell if that's a poor attempt to disguise the 4e influence, or just bad mechanics editing.
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Feb 11, 2015 21:03
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Roadie posted:The funny part is that he must have really come around, because while I'm going through these Charms to make charts I'm seeing a lot of encounter and daily abilities. You're better off just reading what he actually said in the thread while quietly acknowledging that Ferrinus pathologically needs to be correct in every argument, no matter how petty. 
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Feb 11, 2015 21:34
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Bedlamdan posted:You're better off just reading what he actually said in the thread while quietly acknowledging that Ferrinus pathologically needs to be correct in every argument, no matter how petty. It DOES boost his averages a little.
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Feb 11, 2015 21:38
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I'm sorry that I'm failing to take a six year old post about someone's opinion on D&D with the gravity and seriousness that it most certainly deserves.Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:It helps that a lot of the time Ferrinus is correcting you specifically about something trivially obvious or pointing out a flaw in some terrible legacy mechanic your relentless apologism can't help but fellate. Where? In this entire thread the most I've been bitching about is setting fluff followed by a big argument about Brawl/Martial Arts halfway through the play-test.
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Feb 11, 2015 21:50
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If you think that'll trick me into reading any more of your posts you're as mistaken as people who thought this book was coming out in 2015.
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Feb 11, 2015 21:54
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:If you think that'll trick me into reading any more of your posts you're as mistaken as people who thought this book was coming out in 2015. You can just click the question mark icon next my post-date and cherry-pick whatever. Relax, guy! Take Ferrinus for example. He was willing to take the time he needed. I'mma take a posting break before someone pays 10bux to put Aatrek/the stuff from the hentai reviews in my AV.
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Feb 11, 2015 22:06
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More charm charts. This covers all the Abilities. Next are MA styles. Medicine  Melee  Occult  Performance  Presence  Resistance  Ride  Sail  Socialize  Stealth  Survival  Thrown  War  Awareness, Dodge, Integrity, Linguistics, Presence, Ride, Sail, Stealth, Survival, Thrown, and War have no actual Essence 5 Charms, much to the embarrassment of anybody who picks them as Supernal. Roadie fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Feb 11, 2015 |
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Feb 11, 2015 22:36
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Roadie posted:Awareness, Dodge, Integrity, Linguistics, Presence, Ride, Sail, Stealth, Survival, Thrown, and War have no actual Essence 5 Charms, much to the embarrassment of anybody who picks them as Supernal. I mean poo poo, they got crafting to do, son!
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Feb 11, 2015 22:50
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Roadie posted:More charm charts. Like really, it's 10 charms from the top of the Socialize main line to the terminal charm, with only 3 points where they unlock anything other than the next charm in the line. And Medicine's 4 lines only intersect once despite being 4-6 deep, while Presence...man, I'm sorry you had to do Presence, because holy poo poo. Also it's just funny to see how nicely organized Bureaucracy is, especially next to a clusterfuck like Lore. Good Charmfeel.
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Feb 11, 2015 22:52
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As someone who knows gently caress all about Exalted, are the Occult-charms the magic related charms, or is magic something entirely different?
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Feb 11, 2015 22:57
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Libluini posted:As someone who knows gently caress all about Exalted, are the Occult-charms the magic related charms, or is magic something entirely different? Sorcery is its own subsystem with buyable spells and its own resource minigame, but the charms that boost sorcery and unlock tiers of sorcery are all in the Occult tree. But that's only a small fraction of the Occult charms, most of which have to do with like, a gnostic apprehension of Essence and divine authority over spirits. They're magical but they aren't exactly magic, if that makes sense.
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Feb 11, 2015 23:00
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Libluini posted:As someone who knows gently caress all about Exalted, are the Occult-charms the magic related charms, or is magic something entirely different?
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Feb 11, 2015 23:03
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Ah, now it makes sense, thanks. This makes me want to try an Alchemical sorcerer now.
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Feb 11, 2015 23:05
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What!? Supernal skill is Caste only? gently caress, this means I cant have my Night Caste pirate take Sail as Supernal.
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Feb 11, 2015 23:11
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