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A Buttery Pastry posted:Anti-secular/political Islam? Still not that useful. There's a host of variations on that, some violent and some not, some involved in local and regional conflicts and some international, some organised and some self-radicalised lone wolves who spend too much time on the Internet, some engaging in takfir, etc. The approach to this situation would be markedly different if the man had been, say, a foreign operative of IS or AQ, or a lunatic on a killing spree, rather than someone born in Denmark who apparently planned the attack on his own. A Buttery Pastry posted:Shut out of society and alienated aren't really synonymous, are they? Not saying he couldn't have been shut out of society, but people have made the point that it's often seemingly well-integrated individuals that do this kind of stuff. (I guess this might come down to whether gang relations means actual involvement, or just living near a gang/having a family member in a gang.) He's on record for assault and weapons possession, so probably a known gang member. TheImmigrant posted:I don't really like the term either, not any more than 'terrorist' or 'jihadi.' I'd much prefer to see Western media adopt 'irhabi' instead. It isn't a mistranslation from Arabic like 'jihadi' is - it has the exact same connotation in Arabic as 'terrorist.' Well, at least those terms are descriptive of their actions or methods, to a point. SplitSoul fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Feb 15, 2015 |
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Feb 15, 2015 19:11
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HUMAN FISH posted:Must be the neo nazis. The fascists are smart and letting the Muslims do their work for them. They sit back while a bunch of liberals and Jews get murdered because for some reason Islamic psychos are perfectly ok with the people that literally want to put them in concentration camps. It's those drat tolerant types and their free speech. Everyone on this planet is a loving moron.
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Feb 15, 2015 19:12
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TheImmigrant posted:I don't really like the term either, not any more than 'terrorist' or 'jihadi.' I'd much prefer to see Western media adopt 'irhabi' instead. It isn't a mistranslation from Arabic like 'jihadi' is - it has the exact same connotation in Arabic as 'terrorist.' At this point the terms are too set in stone as common discourse. As is 'Islamist'. In fact Islamist is used in Arabic media as well, but usually with extremist or terrorist behind it. And yes Irhabi is 1:1 with Terrorist in Arabic.
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Feb 15, 2015 19:23
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If you're Jewish, not sure that living in Europe is the brightest idea at this point. Wouldn't be surprised to see emigration numbers rising dramatically. It's clear that these jihadist shitheads are going to continue targeting the Jewish populations.
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Feb 15, 2015 19:38
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Where else could you go? And before you say that: over 70% of anti-religious hate crimes in the US are antisemitic.
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Feb 15, 2015 19:45
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Arkane posted:If you're Jewish, not sure that living in Europe is the brightest idea at this point. Wouldn't be surprised to see emigration numbers rising dramatically. It's clear that these jihadist shitheads are going to continue targeting the Jewish populations. The same synagogue was hit by a bomb in 1985 and they're still here.
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Feb 15, 2015 19:48
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I'm Jewish in Europe and the only thing I ever have to deal with relating to antisemitism is lefties giving me suspicious looks whenever the topic of Israel/Palestine comes up until I make it clear that no, I'm not a Zionist, and no, Zionism and Judaism are not the same thing. It's depressing how easy it is for people who are nominally left wing to get pretty drat bigoted when it comes to Jews and stereotyping. EDIT: I got off track but the point I wanted to make was that it's pretty cool up here at least (Scotland) for Jewish communities. Coohoolin fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Feb 15, 2015 |
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Feb 15, 2015 19:54
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Regarde Aduck posted:The fascists are smart and letting the Muslims do their work for them. They sit back while a bunch of liberals and Jews get murdered because for some reason Islamic psychos are perfectly ok with the people that literally want to put them in concentration camps. It's those drat tolerant types and their free speech. Everyone on this planet is a loving moron. Both sets of morons think that they've outsmarted the other ones, and that in the end, it's their ideas that will be victorious.
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Feb 15, 2015 20:02
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Just a sampling of the rife violence against the Jewish populations: From 2012 in France: quote:At about 8:00 am on 19 March, a man drove up to the Ozar Hatorah school on a Yamaha TMAX motorcycle. He dismounted, and immediately opened fire toward the schoolyard. The first victim was a rabbi and teacher at the school who was shot outside the school gates as he tried to shield his two young sons from the gunman. The gunman shot one of the boys as he crawled away, as his father and brother lay dying on the pavement. He then walked into the schoolyard, chasing people into the building. May 2014 in Brussels: quote:A man wearing a cap, carrying several bags and armed with a handgun and a Kalashnikov rifle arrived at the Jewish Museum of Belgium, near the Sablon in central Brussels, at around half past three. He then opened fire, killing three people on site and critically wounding a fourth, who was soon taken to hospital. He later died of his injuries on 6 June. Summer 2014 in France: quote:For the second straight day on Sunday anti-Jewish rioters defied a protest ban in Paris to rampage in the predominantly Jewish suburb of Sarcelles in what one police official called the “Paris Intifada.” November 2014 in France: quote:First, a kosher sushi restaurant in the 17th district of Paris was firebombed on Thursday, Nov. 6, and just a few hours later a Jewish teen was assaulted outside of his school. January 2015 in Paris quote:On 9 January 2015, Amedy Coulibaly, who had pledged allegiance to the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, armed with a vz. 58 submachine gun, an AKS-74U assault rifle, and two Russian-made Tokarev pistols, entered and attacked the people in a Hypercacher kosher food superette at Porte de Vincennes in east Paris. He killed four people, all of whom were Jews, and took several hostages. Incidentally the completely clueless Obama administration claimed last week that the kosher deli was a "random" target. Good job guys. Wouldn't want to insinuate that Muslim terrorists want to kill Jews. That'd be stereotyping! And now we have the Danish attack, where the perpetrator went specifically to a Synagogue intending to kill Jewish people. Thank goodness the fatalities were limited. Cingulate posted:Where else could you go? I imagine there will be significant emigration to Israel. At least you know you'll be defended there.
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Feb 15, 2015 20:04
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Some more info: Omar Abdel Hamid El-Hussein, 22 years old, convicted of an unprovoked stabbing on a train in 2013. Lived in the Mjølnerparken neighbourhood in Nørrebro. Local gang Brothas call him a loner with no known proper gang affiliations.
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Feb 15, 2015 20:04
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Just now: 200 jewish tombs profaned in eastern france. It would be nice if we acknowledged that antisemites in France are 90% Arabs/Muslims . unpacked robinhood fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Feb 15, 2015 |
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Feb 15, 2015 20:07
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unpacked robinhood posted:It would be nice if we acknowledged that antisemites in France are 90% Arabs/Muslims . Born and raised in France. 
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Feb 15, 2015 20:13
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Arkane posted:I imagine there will be significant emigration to Israel. At least you know you'll be defended there.
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Feb 15, 2015 20:15
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unpacked robinhood posted:Just now: 200 jewish tombs profaned in eastern france. is this true, though, i mean le pen
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Feb 15, 2015 20:53
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Cingulate posted:I'm just guessing here, but I would be surprised if it was safer to be a Jew in Israel than in Germany, especially what anti-semitic terror attacks are concerned. You are probably right, although the safest places in the world to be a Jew are probably Canada, the US, Mexico City, and Panama City.
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Feb 15, 2015 20:56
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V. Illych L. posted:is this true, though, i mean le pen Jean-Marie Le Pen is an antisemite, although I haven't seen any evidence that Le Pen fille is. She's the relevant Le Pen today.
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Feb 15, 2015 20:57
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Yeah, but Le Pen sr. built the party and was quite public in his antisemittism. I'm confident that more than 10% of France's antisemites are either FN types or conspiracy theorists, is what I'm saying. Saying that this is an immigrant/muslim/arab problem is probably understating it, is my point
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Feb 15, 2015 20:59
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TheImmigrant posted:You are probably right, although the safest places in the world to be a Jew are probably Canada, the US, Mexico City, and Panama City. Do the Jews living in East Asia, like Japan, Korea, Taiwan, etc. get much poo poo?
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Feb 15, 2015 21:00
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quote:I imagine there will be significant emigration to Israel. At least you know you'll be defended there. Assuming you're the right kind of Jew in the right area, sure. That said I'm not convinced that saying "Yeah, the extremists are right, we don't belong in Europe" and running off to a special ethnic enclave is a good response to these incidents.
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Feb 15, 2015 21:03
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boom boom boom posted:Do the Jews living in East Asia, like Japan, Korea, Taiwan, etc. get much poo poo? I don't even know if they exist, outside of expat communities. I remember seeing a synagogue in Yangon that had been closed since decolonization, since there are no native Burmese Jews. The furtheast east I'm aware of a community claiming links to the Jewish diaspora (excluding Russia, for obvious reasons) is Kaifeng, China. TheImmigrant fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Feb 15, 2015 |
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Feb 15, 2015 21:05
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V. Illych L. posted:Yeah, but Le Pen sr. built the party and was quite public in his antisemittism. I'm confident that more than 10% of France's antisemites are either FN types or conspiracy theorists, is what I'm saying. Saying that this is an immigrant/muslim/arab problem is probably understating it, is my point Yes he was, but his daughter has been quite successful, at least for PR purposes, in repositioning the party. Fifteen years ago, who would've guessed that the FN would make a serious play for the votes of the French gay community?
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Feb 15, 2015 21:07
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i don't see how that's pertinent to my point
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Feb 15, 2015 21:08
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boom boom boom posted:Do the Jews living in East Asia, like Japan, Korea, Taiwan, etc. get much poo poo? Not so much, and there are barely any of them.
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Feb 15, 2015 21:10
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Disinterested posted:Not so much, and there are barely any of them. Yeah, my experience teaching in Northeast Asia was that people don't have enough experience with Jews even to have an opinion. It's like asking someone in Nebraska what they think of Jains.
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Feb 15, 2015 21:18
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Arkane posted:Incidentally the completely clueless Obama administration claimed last week that the kosher deli was a "random" target. Good job guys. Wouldn't want to insinuate that Muslim terrorists want to kill Jews. That'd be stereotyping! That interpretation is not borne out by the context of his statement. Politifact has a good account of it: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/feb/12/rick-perry/obama-calls-kosher-deli-attack-random-rick-perry-s/ quote:In a Jan. 22 statement to the United Nations General Assembly, regarding anti-Semitism, Obama said, "Anti-Semitic attacks like the recent terrorist attack on a kosher supermarket in Paris pose a threat that extends beyond the Jewish community." It's hard to get good numbers for the incidence of anti-Semitic attacks. http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-28853221 This, for example, contains this chart.  A bit out of date, but because it lists absolute numbers of reported incidents, the US should be safest for Jews on a per capita basis. Of course, Germany's numbers may be inflated by sensitivity in that area, and all countries listed have a different number and proportion of the population of Jews. Not a apples to apples comparison. William Bear fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Feb 15, 2015 |
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Feb 15, 2015 21:22
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SplitSoul posted:Still not that useful. There's a host of variations on that, some violent and some not, some involved in local and regional conflicts and some international, some organised and some self-radicalised lone wolves who spend too much time on the Internet, some engaging in takfir, etc. The approach to this situation would be markedly different if the man had been, say, a foreign operative of IS or AQ, or a lunatic on a killing spree, rather than someone born in Denmark who apparently planned the attack on his own. You seem to have a very naive conception of the purpose of choosing how to refer to political movements in public discourse. Technical accuracy is vastly less important than the utility of a term like "Islamists" for framing the issue. Or do you think that the pro-choice movement in the U.S. should start calling themselves the "Pro-fetus-termination rights movement"? In fact, it is the co-existence of violent and non-violent forms of political Islam that makes westerners perceive it as such a great threat, compared to the actions of suicidal nihilist spree-killers like Anders Breivik. Here's the point that Islam apologists in these threads and the media at large don't seem capable of addressing: If you advocate for the same ends as a violent terrorist group, in this case the implementation of religiously-informed community codes and blasphemy laws, you have no right to complain about people rhetorically associating you with violent terrorists. Violence is a tactic, a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. As long as European Muslim communities advocate for religious laws (and they do, and have, even to the point of collaborating with neo-fascists in the vote against a gay rights bill), they will be regarded with a certain measure of hostility from other Europeans, and rightly so. It is their beliefs and politics that need to change - saying "we reject violence as a means for establishing religious law, we would rather do so by working within the confines of democracy" is a totally unsatisfactory response by Muslims to these attacks. Until they stop vehemently rejecting secularism in the public square, they absolutely deserve to get tarred with the same brush as violent criminals.
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Feb 15, 2015 22:43
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I thought the FN tended to try and play both sides and has a higher-than-you'd-expect level of Muslim support?
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Feb 15, 2015 22:50
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Cingulate posted:I'm just guessing here, but I would be surprised if it was safer to be a Jew in Israel than in Germany, especially what anti-semitic terror attacks are concerned. http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...9a2f_story.html
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Feb 15, 2015 23:08
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Exclamation Marx posted:I thought the FN tended to try and play both sides and has a higher-than-you'd-expect level of Muslim support? Hey em can you give a source on that I literally never heard of that before. 
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Feb 15, 2015 23:11
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Lawman 0 posted:Hey em can you give a source on that I literally never heard of that before. Tons second and third generation immigrants are angry about the current wave of migrants who apparantly "aren't like their fathers/mothers". And Europe. And gays. Uncle Ruckus' style.
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Feb 15, 2015 23:27
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Lawman 0 posted:Hey em can you give a source on that I literally never heard of that before. That's why I asked, I could be misremembering! Jean-Marie is the godfather of one of Dieudonné's children (not Muslim, but son of an African immigrant & hangs out with Islamists and FN alike). Here's an anecdotal article from last year; to clarify I think *any* Muslim or Maghrebi immigrant support would be higher-than-you'd-expect  . I dare say that support is based in antisemitism or social conservatism, though I thought I'd read somewhere that the FN simultaneously tries to attract Muslims by being antisemitic and Jews by pretending to care about Muslim antisemitism.
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Feb 15, 2015 23:34
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Exclamation Marx posted:I thought the FN tended to try and play both sides and has a higher-than-you'd-expect level of Muslim support? Yes. The FN welcomes bigots of all origins in its fold. You're a Muslim and you want to join the FN because you hate Jews? Welcome! You're a Jew and you want to join the FN because you hate Muslims? Welcome!
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Feb 15, 2015 23:41
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Liberal_L33t posted:Here's the point that Islam apologists in these threads and the media at large don't seem capable of addressing: If you advocate for the same ends as a violent terrorist group, in this case the implementation of religiously-informed community codes and blasphemy laws, you have no right to complain about people rhetorically associating you with violent terrorists. So, like, in other words anybody supporting anything that some terrorist group also supports is literally associated with terrorists by default?
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Feb 16, 2015 00:02
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Cerebral Bore posted:So, like, in other words anybody supporting anything that some terrorist group also supports is literally associated with terrorists by default?
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Feb 16, 2015 00:07
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Arkane posted:Incidentally the completely clueless Obama administration claimed last week that the kosher deli was a "random" target. Good job guys. Wouldn't want to insinuate that Muslim terrorists want to kill Jews. That'd be stereotyping! It's definitely a hostile climate in many parts of Europe right now, but this is complete bullshit and an absolutely fake story. Let's stick to the real anti-Semitic politicians, like Erdogan.
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Feb 16, 2015 00:12
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Apparently the attacker had only been out of prison for two weeks before this happened. Also, the arrests earlier today were apparently because the four in question didn't want to stay on the floor more than 15 minutes. Still no word on why the police raided the internet café. Liberal_L33t posted:You seem to have a very naive conception of the purpose of choosing how to refer to political movements in public discourse. Technical accuracy is vastly less important than the utility of a term like "Islamists" for framing the issue. Or do you think that the pro-choice movement in the U.S. should start calling themselves the "Pro-fetus-termination rights movement"? I know very well that it's rhetorical and meant to frame an issue a certain way. That's precisely what I'm getting at. It erases the nuances in the issue and ends up little more than an empty buzzword that can apply to pretty much anything, from putting on a hijab to the barbarism of IS. What pro-choice people choose to call themselves is beside the point, few people refer to themselves as "Islamist". Maybe it's different where you're from, but the term "Islamist" is used pretty carelessly here. I've heard it used about an LGBT-friendly, feminist, Communist hijabi. At that point the term becomes utterly meaningless. Liberal_L33t posted:In fact, it is the co-existence of violent and non-violent forms of political Islam that makes westerners perceive it as such a great threat, compared to the actions of suicidal nihilist spree-killers like Anders Breivik. Breivik was neither suicidal nor a nihilist, what the gently caress are you talking about? He wrote a 1500-page manifesto detailing his fascist ideology and conspiracy theories, much of it shared by established political parties all over Europe—although most of them would probably distance themselves from his methods. See a parallel here? Liberal_L33t posted:Here's the point that Islam apologists in these threads and the media at large don't seem capable of addressing: If you advocate for the same ends as a violent terrorist group, in this case the implementation of religiously-informed community codes and blasphemy laws, you have no right to complain about people rhetorically associating you with violent terrorists. Violence is a tactic, a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. As long as European Muslim communities advocate for religious laws (and they do, and have, even to the point of collaborating with neo-fascists in the vote against a gay rights bill), they will be regarded with a certain measure of hostility from other Europeans, and rightly so. It is their beliefs and politics that need to change - saying "we reject violence as a means for establishing religious law, we would rather do so by working within the confines of democracy" is a totally unsatisfactory response by Muslims to these attacks. Until they stop vehemently rejecting secularism in the public square, they absolutely deserve to get tarred with the same brush as violent criminals. Ironically this is the exact same approach that takfiri use to justify murdering civilians of states that wage war against them. Good job, I guess. As an aside, Denmark still has blasphemy laws on the books. SplitSoul fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Feb 16, 2015 |
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Feb 16, 2015 00:27
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Yeah, I'm not sure I really buy that reasoning. It's not like support for religious law isn't reason enough to condemn a group, there's really no need to associate them with violent groups based solely on them having similar goals. A "need"? Perhaps not quite - but it can definitely be useful, and justified, if the goal is abhorrent enough. Consider, using the United States as an example, how the actions of the Ku Klux Klan were used to great rhetorical effect against segregationists, despite the fact that many of said segregationists probably genuinely rejected violence and had no intention of doing anything except using the tools of government to prevent integration. Would you say that it wasn't valid to associate politicians with the Klan so long as they weren't actually members and didn't share a willingness to do violence? How about the self-proclaimed Tea Party member who flew a plane into an IRS building? Should that incident be out of bounds when criticizing said movement? Edit: SplitSoul posted:Ironically this is the exact same approach that takfiri use to justify murdering civilians of states that wage war against them. Good job, I guess. It is, more or less. Likewise for every instance of military collateral damage since the term came into use, and ever since people started trying to justify warfare at all, really. All but the most ardent pacifist would agree that there are circumstances where violent action is justified, even if it necessarily results in civilian deaths (the bombing of Germany in WWII comes to mind). In modern times, we have come to realize that the threshold of necessity for such actions should be extremely high, to the point where it is only justifiable in cases of national survival. Even in the utterly deplorable Iraq campaign, there was at least a token effort made to reduce civilian casualties, which is a small step forward compared to the bombing raids of WWII or Vietnam, where civilian deaths were all-but-explicitly one of the objectives. In the case of most Islamist actions, there ARE no other objectives. However, there is a rather huge gulf in justifiability between outright bombing and the kind of hostility which European Muslims are complaining about - that is, being mocked, ridiculed, and insulted. Bombing civilians isn't justified against anything less than another Nazi Germany - hurting people's feelings and targeting them in the media is a lot easier to justify, particularly if said people have beliefs that are utterly horrible and lead to countless thousands being oppressed by their neighbors and communities every year. Their tears are collateral damage I can totally get behind if the "victims" end up being pressured into changing their beliefs to accommodate a secular public sphere. Liberal_L33t fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Feb 16, 2015 |
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Feb 16, 2015 01:01
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Edit: Accidental double-post
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Feb 16, 2015 01:21
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How is Europe in any way a hostile climate to Jewish people when the largest Muslim population is in France at 10%, and less than 1% of terrorism acts in Europe in the past few years were committed by Muslims or Islam related, that doesn't really seem like cause to pick up and leave. It's like moving into a underground bunker because a person in your state got struck by lightning.
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Feb 16, 2015 01:34
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Liberal_L33t posted:However, there is a rather huge gulf in justifiability between outright bombing and the kind of hostility which European Muslims are complaining about - that is, being mocked, ridiculed, and insulted. Bombing civilians isn't justified against anything less than another Nazi Germany - hurting people's feelings and targeting them in the media is a lot easier to justify, particularly if said people have beliefs that are utterly horrible and lead to countless thousands being oppressed by their neighbors and communities every year. Their tears are collateral damage I can totally get behind if the "victims" end up being pressured into changing their beliefs to accommodate a secular public sphere. That's not really the only thing that's at stake here, dude, and as I said "Islamist" isn't exclusively used about, say, Salafis in general, or groups like Hizb-ut-Tahrir, MB, AQ, IS and so on, who employ varying levels of violence. And then you have top people from the most popular, far-right, nativist party that claim there isn't even a difference between Islam, as practiced by most Muslims here, and Islamism. The public debate is ugly and has been ugly for years, even long before the caricatures. You have the chairman for the Free Press Society—a revered figure on the right, self-proclaimed Marxist and Eurabia theory proponent, and his organisation is full of likeminded individuals—call for resistance against Muslims like during the Nazi occupation (between the lines: assassinations, sabotage, bombings, summary execution of traitors, etc.) and nobody bats an eye. This type of "discourse" is everyday stuff and has been for a long time. Within minutes, before anyone even knew what had happened yesterday, a prominent member of the Liberals suggested a burial in pig skin for the person responsible. I am really dreading the next few weeks and months, and I hope people will take the PM's advice (first and probably only time you will ever hear me say that) and stay calm.
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Feb 16, 2015 01:52
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