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Green Bean posted:One thing I'd be worried about in making a Jackie Chan-style martial art is creating the Stunt version of the air-breathing mermaid problem where you've got all sorts of improvised, scenery using stunts that are now Charm design space. "I don't think you can trap the guy with a ladder and flip him off the roof without buying Trapped Climber Technique and spending 2 motes." This is been a problem with stunting since 1e but I'm not sure I buy it. The issue arises because Charms and stunts both pull from the vat of 'does cool poo poo'. Stunts really shouldn't be powers comparable to Charms though; making a declaration that you're doing something shouldn't immediately allow you to do it, no matter how cool it is. I don't think this is a universal rule for all systems. It's just in a system as crunchy as Exalted, with a robust skill system, you want to lean on those skills as often as possible. Let's take a couple of examples that come up a lot. Popular example: fighting on the spear-tips of an army. This is impossible by real life standards and there's usually at least one Charm that lets you do it, but it's almost always listed somewhere as an example stunt. I don't feel like that's something that should just 'happen'; characters should have to throw dice at it. Another one: blocking arrows with your sword. You describe it, I guess, and maybe roll and let the player apply successes against the attack. Or else, there's a Charm for that. Charms are declarative power; stunts are conditional power, meaning you get a say in what it is you want to do but not necessarily over whether it succeeds. Exalted is a 'say yes' game by design and I think you should stick with that in pretty much every game, but stunts are a place where players should shoot for the stars and let the dice sort out how close they got. Way too often (even in the writing) I think there was an impression that stunting was a supernatural ability that could create ad-hoc Charms that for some reason also returned Essence and I never understood that. My understanding is that they should reward you for either risk or creativity or, hopefully, both.
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Feb 16, 2015 09:15
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Since when have stunts allowed you to do things you normally couldn't? That's never how I read them, at least outside of a couple of fringe examples. The way I read stunts, at least in 2E, they were for doing basically the same stuff as usual, but with a cool description/idea behind them.
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Feb 16, 2015 10:49
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PurpleXVI posted:Since when have stunts allowed you to do things you normally couldn't? That's never how I read them, at least outside of a couple of fringe examples. The way I read stunts, at least in 2E, they were for doing basically the same stuff as usual, but with a cool description/idea behind them. Since forever. You can't parry an arrow with a sword...unless you stunt it.
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Feb 16, 2015 11:25
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I've never played a game of Exalted where people haven't acted like the have the full suite of athletics charms even when it's super rare for anyone to even buy one. Same way Phantom Conjuring Performance is known as the charm "That everyone has until someone points out they actually bought it"
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Feb 16, 2015 11:40
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Fans posted:I've never played a game of Exalted where people haven't acted like the have the full suite of athletics charms even when it's super rare for anyone to even buy one. Same way Phantom Conjuring Performance is known as the charm "That everyone has until someone points out they actually bought it" This surprises me, because both of those (but especially Phantom Conjuring Performance) seem like stuff people would assume they can't swing without the charms. I know the very first time I made a Performance heavy character I beelined for PCP because it looked so cool and I really wanted to be able to do something that amazing.
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Feb 16, 2015 11:41
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Transient People posted:This surprises me, because both of those (but especially Phantom Conjuring Performance) seem like stuff people would assume they can't swing without the charms As I said, everyone uses them until someone points out they're actually charms. Is there any real reason to gate off using your anima to make images and music if it provides absolutely no mechanical benefit?
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Feb 16, 2015 11:58
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Fans posted:As I said, everyone uses them until someone points out they're actually charms. Depends on what you want anima to do, really. It's always felt like it was supposed to be a fluff detail, to me - identical in importance to the color of clothes you use, except as far as the generic caste benefits were concerned. If somebody wanted it to be much more expressive and important though, I wouldn't blame them.
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Feb 16, 2015 12:04
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Transient People posted:Depends on what you want anima to do, really. It's always felt like it was supposed to be a fluff detail, to me - identical in importance to the color of clothes you use, except as far as the generic caste benefits were concerned. If somebody wanted it to be much more expressive and important though, I wouldn't blame them.
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Feb 16, 2015 12:32
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I think the Martial Artist merit is overkill and at minimum I'd just create mild Ability requirements for buying the Ability representing a given martial arts style - like, you can't learn Snake without Brawl 1, or Righteous Devil without Archery 2, or something.Transient People posted:Its ethos is comboing, plain and simple. Steel Devil plays exactly like a fighting game character translated to tabletop - you fish with pokes and stray hits, get a solid hit confirm, and then unload and unload and unload on your target. It even has an Alpha Counter mechanic, even. Okay, but that's also what the Initiative system does. I'm not talking about a unique game-mechanical identity. I mean... who is the Steel Devil? What is their style an emulation of? Can you describe them with as much immediacy and clarity as you can describe the Righteous Devil, or the Tiger? I'd say no. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Feb 16, 2015 |
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Feb 16, 2015 18:34
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Drizzt.
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Feb 16, 2015 18:50
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If they were Drizzt , which I'd be totally cool with, there'd be Charms about striking back against corruption and persecution, or your faithful ally/pet setting you up for killshots, or something! That's what I like about, for example, Tiger Style. It's not just a martial art about being really good with claw weapons, it's about emulating tigers, so there's pouncing, stalking, mauling, the whole bit.
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Feb 16, 2015 18:54
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I feel you, I was just kidding around.
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Feb 16, 2015 18:59
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PurpleXVI posted:Since when have stunts allowed you to do things you normally couldn't? That's never how I read them, at least outside of a couple of fringe examples. The way I read stunts, at least in 2E, they were for doing basically the same stuff as usual, but with a cool description/idea behind them. Right, and that was basically my understanding as well, but then you get the examples I mentioned. Plus from table to table the amount that stunts allow you to modify the scenery or the rules is pretty variable. In one group, "I run up the wall and backflip over their heads, stabbing them in the spine" is totally cool and in another you need to actually roll Athletics or apply an appropriate Charm to see if that's a thing you can actually do. I think the latter is really more the intent. Even the stingiest tables I played out always ruled (houseruled? not even sure of the RAW anymore) that you get the stunt rewards before trying, though.
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Feb 16, 2015 19:16
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Zereth posted:Does All Creation Turns To Ash live up to its name? You Blow Up the Whole Battlefield is a more accurate name.
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Feb 16, 2015 19:31
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Zereth posted:I've always wanted to go Full JoJo and literally punch things with my Anima Banner once it reaches the "actually a shape instead of just glowing" level. Even before I really knew what Jojo's Bizarre Adventure was.  The only issue I'd have with the "your anima makes lights and sounds to accompany you" idea being "a default assumption" is that people will get annoyingly literalist and have actual choir accompaniment and/or do light show projections to accompany literally every possible thing, which could bog poo poo down or put out people who are not so into theatrical lighting and music. One easy solution is that one-off accompaniments and stunts that are like 'my anima suggests a feint or lights me dramatically' are stunt fodder, while if you're actually doing Industrial Light and Magic - projecting false faces, creating illusions that hold up to more than superficial scrutiny, etc. that's a Charm.
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Feb 16, 2015 19:38
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Nessus posted:One easy solution is that one-off accompaniments and stunts that are like 'my anima suggests a feint or lights me dramatically' are stunt fodder, while if you're actually doing Industrial Light and Magic - projecting false faces, creating illusions that hold up to more than superficial scrutiny, etc. that's a Charm. I remember the Solar Hologram argument, I wish they'd done more with the charm as it exists in the newest leak. "I punch a man, and my anima flares around my fists as I do it" seems like a basic stunt, but not applicable to, say, most mental or subtle social tasks. Phantom Conjuring Performance being, explicitly Solar Holograms would allow you to use it in a wide variety of tasks: Put up a giant golden barrier to stymie enemy archers. Lay out the battlefield for a War bonus Gigantic stock ticker over your head for a Bureaucracy bonus etc. As-written it's pretty lame. If I buy a charm for that, I want to make my anima my bitch.
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Feb 16, 2015 20:09
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I've never understood why a Charm that lives in Performance couldn't be use to fool people. Like I think it's supposed keep illusions firmly in the Lunar bailiwick, maybe, but it's just such a weird limitation on a Charm that's already 9/10 of the way there.
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Feb 16, 2015 20:36
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I'm pretty sure the point of the charm is just to make it so nobody makes holograms with their anima, since you'd have to buy the charm to do it and obviously nobody's going to buy that charm.
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Feb 16, 2015 20:52
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Ferrinus posted:I think the Martial Artist merit is overkill and at minimum I'd just create mild Ability requirements for buying the Ability representing a given martial arts style - like, you can't learn Snake without Brawl 1, or Righteous Devil without Archery 2, or something. I already mentioned Zoro from One Piece. Lloyd Irving from Tales of Symphonia also works. It's also pretty much a perfect blend of the Ragnarok Online Monk and Assassin, if you need a direct videogame inspiration for what it's supposed to look like when you unleash a combo (right down to having variable chains, even). More generally, Steel Devil itself is a homage to the fancy Final Fantasy limit breaks of post-FF7 games, letting you do your own personal Omnislash or Lionheart. In my mind, that's pretty much exactly what a Steel Devil unleashing his killing intent looks like.
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Feb 16, 2015 21:07
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I don't mean what other media is their style meant by the author to remind you of. I mean, what does a Steel Devil stylist think they're doing. What's the style's philosophy, what did the first master of Steel Devil Style get inspired by and decide to formulate as a martial art? What's the in-character reason that it's not just a cascade of Melee charms, which, on their own, can also produce a really fast-moving, counterattack-happy, and combo-executing wielder of paired swords, even to the extent of having certain Charms only usable after certain other Charms? The Righteous Devil is wandering vigilante and avenger. Who's the Steel Devil?
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Feb 16, 2015 21:11
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Once, a ladder was stolen from me, and in my hesitation I was too slow to respond. Never again!
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Feb 16, 2015 21:18
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Ferrinus posted:I don't mean what other media is their style meant by the author to remind you of. I mean, what does a Steel Devil stylist think they're doing. What's the style's philosophy, what did the first master of Steel Devil Style get inspired by and decide to formulate as a martial art? What's the in-character reason that it's not just a cascade of Melee charms, which, on their own, can also produce a really fast-moving, counterattack-happy, and combo-executing wielder of paired swords, even to the extent of having certain Charms only usable after certain other Charms? Let's just cut right to the point. If I give you an answer, are you going to take it or just be a tendentious pedant and dismiss it because the official fluff is more focused on what Steel Devil is rather than where it comes from?
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Feb 16, 2015 21:25
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Ultimately, how much does the fluff of a style matter compared to the content? I mean, sure, it's nice if it has cool thematics, but ultimately what matters about these is that they're relatively competitive with each other and let you do something other than add more dice. I'd rather have a well-balanced, fluff-less style that the player can make his own than a ridiculously detailed style with dull mechanical effects.
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Feb 16, 2015 21:28
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Transient People posted:Let's just cut right to the point. If I give you an answer, are you going to take it or just be a tendentious pedant and dismiss it because the official fluff is more focused on what Steel Devil is rather than where it comes from? Actually, let's actually cut right to the point: you can't give me an answer. It's just a bunch of Melee charms that have been sequestered from the other Melee charms for balance reasons! I'm actually a little dissatisfied with how Shining Point got mechanized, too, but it's at least got some, like, style to it.
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Feb 16, 2015 21:30
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Is there an artifact-level equivalent to the regular unarmed strike (or even artifact versions of form weapons like hook swords)? I don't see any and I'm not sure if I'm missing them or if they're worse on purpose.
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Feb 16, 2015 21:34
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Ferrinus posted:Actually, let's actually cut right to the point: you can't give me an answer. Excellent, I don't have to talk to you any longer. It's refreshing to see you actually say you're not interested in discussing so much as feeling smugly right.
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Feb 16, 2015 21:46
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Attorney at Funk posted:Is there an artifact-level equivalent to the regular unarmed strike (or even artifact versions of form weapons like hook swords)? I don't see any and I'm not sure if I'm missing them or if they're worse on purpose. Worse on purpose, at least for unarmed.
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Feb 16, 2015 21:49
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Transient People posted:Excellent, I don't have to talk to you any longer. It's refreshing to see you actually say you're not interested in discussing so much as feeling smugly right. You never had to answer my question. I sure as hell didn't expect you to! I don't know why you're being so melodramatic about it, though.
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Feb 16, 2015 21:54
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On a different subject, can we take a moment to appreciate how pretty the map is? I assume the big version has been posted before, but it's not in the OP, so:
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Feb 16, 2015 21:54
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I really enjoy how generic "Lost Zarlath" sounds.
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Feb 16, 2015 21:56
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Oligopsony posted:Once, a ladder was stolen from me, and in my hesitation I was too slow to respond. Never again! Here's my try at what a theoretical I Don't Want No Trouble While Holding A Baby In A Ladder Table And Chair Factory Style would look like. Can't quite decide a capstone, though. 
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Feb 16, 2015 22:06
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You know what part of this makes it feel the most like Exalted 3e? It's not finished
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Feb 16, 2015 22:10
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Ferrinus posted:I really enjoy how generic "Lost Zarlath" sounds. I wonder what's up with that city sitting on top of a dragon squiggle. A good map.
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Feb 16, 2015 22:36
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Roadie posted:Here's my try at what a theoretical I Don't Want No Trouble While Holding A Baby In A Ladder Table And Chair Factory Style would... one of my great regrets from my martial artist career was not learning the Tea Bench set included in my style. and the capstone would naturally result in your environment lighting on fire or collapsing, making this the ultimate martial art for engaging with someone in their celestial battle manse.
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Feb 16, 2015 23:36
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Hierarchy Obliterating Denouement where you destroy your ladder to obliterate everything around you in a storm of rungs and and poles.
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Feb 17, 2015 00:04
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Nessus posted:As opposed to what, exactly? Just call it Kadath. It's public domain!
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Feb 17, 2015 05:48
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Nessus posted:
When I spoke with the map artist at GenCon he said all the circles and runes and stuff is just decoration and doesn't mean a drat thing. Except what meaning we assign it.
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Feb 17, 2015 06:55
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Maybe I'm in the minority, but my problem with the martial artist merit and the martial arts abilities isn't the merit, it's the abilities. Every martial art being its own skill makes absolutely no sense to me because of the utter lack of intersection with other skills. When someone can be a grand master of Exalted Kendo, but not have a single point in Melee, leaving them utterly clueless as to how they could even possibly begin to pummel someone with a stick, that strains what seems like common sense to me. So, I'm totally cool with the Martial Artist merit, since it presumably represents the character's investment in finding, initiating with, and learning significant amounts of a rare and esoteric martial art from a rare and esoteric sifu. It's the 'every martial art has its own completely different skill which doesn't cross over with normal skills or each other' thing that puts me off of the whole thing.
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Feb 17, 2015 17:31
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All else being equal, I would prefer Ferrinus' original proposed solution of MA styles being splat-agnostic Archery/Brawl/Melee/Thrown trees, perhaps with specific restrictions on weapons or combos, and to make any XP taxes up-front (ie, multiple Martial Artist MERITS but they can all use the same four Abilities, instead of ONE Merit and each style being its own Ability).
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Feb 17, 2015 18:26
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Fans posted:As I said, everyone uses them until someone points out they're actually charms. In 2e, we had it provide the mechanical benefit of acting like a PA system for letting you affect a larger number of targets. It was a terrible hack, but needed, because rules-as-written it was too easy for Performance Charms to let you mindwipe a whole city in one go.
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Feb 17, 2015 18:45
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