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Lord Wexia posted:I'm on the other end of that. I used a Tiberon the other week and loved it (after loving the Latron) and I just finished of a Sybaris and haven't enjoyed using it nearly as much. The magazine seems so small, even with a maxed Mag Warp. The rifle magazine/reload mods are awful. Don't bother using them.
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Feb 17, 2015 19:11
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Male Man posted:The rifle magazine/reload mods are awful. Don't bother using them. I use Fast Hands because I hate long reloads 
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Feb 17, 2015 19:18
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I feel like 95% of all the mods are awful and not worth using except to fill out a weapon in between levels of useful mods. Makes me laugh at them taking suggestions for new mods from the design council when it's all going to be useless anyway because whats the point in equipping a mod that's not just +damage.
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Feb 17, 2015 19:19
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Male Man posted:The rifle magazine/reload mods are awful. Don't bother using them. Part of the problem is that DE never gave a real purpose to secondary weapons other than being backup if you run out of ammo. I stated this way back in alpha, but they should have added passive reloading and quadrupled reload times. That way you either alternate guns or invest in reload mods.
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Feb 17, 2015 19:53
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Thor-Stryker posted:Part of the problem is that DE never gave a real purpose to secondary weapons other than being backup if you run out of ammo. Or in the Marelok's case if you want to style on all the enemies.  But yeah, it really feels like Secondaries don't have that much of a place in Warframe, where 95% of the guns pick up ammo about as fast as you can use it, and the swap speed isn't particularly fast enough without Speed Holster to warrant swapping to secondaries (or Melee when you don't want it  ) when you're out of ammo in a magazine.
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Feb 17, 2015 20:10
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Thor-Stryker posted:Part of the problem is that DE never gave a real purpose to secondary weapons other than being backup if you run out of ammo. Let's be fair here. They did add a few secondaries that reverse that role! (Telos, Synoid, even the Vaykor) I'd hate the idea of being *forced* to switch guns-just would be nice if you had more reasons to. Something like the current setup where you can have a shotgun primary with a Vaykor to hit long-range shots.
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Feb 17, 2015 20:10
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I may be a crazy person, but I actually like the idea of needing to carry a secondary weapon that can help you with multiple types of enemies. I'm picturing in a crossfire mission to be in an area full of Corpus so you bring all of your Magnetic and such weaponry out to smash them (your Gammacor, obviously). Then in the next area you are up against a bunch of Grineer so you pull out your Boltor Prime and tag all of them to walls. As it is now though, I'd like to swap back and forth but the swap time and the reloading times make it not fun. What game was I playing the other day where the lore said, "Weapons are so advanced that they reload when holstered!"?
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Feb 17, 2015 20:31
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Thor-Stryker posted:I stated this way back in alpha, but they should have added passive reloading and quadrupled reload times. ill fukin cut u m8
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Feb 17, 2015 20:39
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Way more fun then forcing you to switch weapons is giving you reasons to use certain weapon types in certain situations. It results in the same behavior, but is more engaging to the player. But it's also a bunch of work and Warframe is nowhere close to being able to take advantage of it. Honestly, having multiple weapons be kind of a vestigial mechanic is better than some half-assed punishment for not swapping weapons constantly. At least this way you can jump-start a new gun by letting it leech experience in a high level mission.
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Feb 17, 2015 20:45
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I use a Penta and I frequently swap out to my V.Marelok to take down nullifiers if I'm not packing a sweet melee weapon. That's about it.
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Feb 17, 2015 20:46
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Thor-Stryker posted:Part of the problem is that DE never gave a real purpose to secondary weapons other than being backup if you run out of ammo. I agree -- this is actually my biggest beef with the game since I started playing about a month ago. It seems secondary weapons in general are overshadowed by primary weapons. And if you have an ammo mutation on a primary weapon, there's very little reason to ever use your secondary weapon, as you'll never run out of ammo.
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Feb 17, 2015 20:56
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On the flip side, I hate bows so I can level those by taking them into missions and letting the bow leech off of a Gammacor or Marelok. Still doesn't solve the problem of only one weapon being useful at a time.
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Feb 17, 2015 20:59
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I like to at least try to keep my primary and secondary from filling the same role. I use the kohm in my primary and the rakta ballistica in my secondary and they play different enough there's usually a reason to switch between them now and then. Or like, I'll have paris prime for powerful single targets and hikou prime for large groups. I end up switching weapons a lot like that. Swap speed is still kind of a chore though without speed holster and speed holster just isn't worth not having energy siphon.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:07
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With Nullifiers, you at least have reason to keep a high rate-of-fire gun around, even if you forma an Opticor five times. Now if they could do the opposite, with a dangerous enemy that encourages big single hits, and maybe one that needs to be engaged in melee, we might be getting somewhere. And I guess there's elemental builds, but you're probably building every weapon the same.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:08
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FlocksOfMice posted:I like to at least try to keep my primary and secondary from filling the same role. I use the kohm in my primary and the rakta ballistica in my secondary and they play different enough there's usually a reason to switch between them now and then. Or like, I'll have paris prime for powerful single targets and hikou prime for large groups. I end up switching weapons a lot like that. Swap speed is still kind of a chore though without speed holster and speed holster just isn't worth not having energy siphon. Yeah, the Rakta Ballistica fells the role of being complete poo poo quite nicely, I'll give it that.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:15
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Hey so why doesn't the Penta do well against nullifiers? I shot a null with a dread last night and the force field went zooooooom and shrunk so fast, but the penta grenade just plinks dinkily like a dink off the field and the AoE does jack and poo poo. Sucks!
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Feb 17, 2015 21:17
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Charles Bukowski posted:Hey so why doesn't the Penta do well against nullifiers? I shot a null with a dread last night and the force field went zooooooom and shrunk so fast, but the penta grenade just plinks dinkily like a dink off the field and the AoE does jack and poo poo. Sucks! Wait a bow can go well against a nullifier shield? I though their mechanic was each shot plinks some away. Either way still probably isn't going to replace my Soma/Gammacor combo.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:23
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Charles Bukowski posted:Hey so why doesn't the Penta do well against nullifiers? I shot a null with a dread last night and the force field went zooooooom and shrunk so fast, but the penta grenade just plinks dinkily like a dink off the field and the AoE does jack and poo poo. Sucks! The nullifier shield takes almost no damage from explosions (I assume it's some weird interaction with the explosion damage drop off that DE added to nerf thunderbolt Attica), and the grenade itself will bounce of the shield (much more noticeable with castanas when they come flying back at your head). ^: They upped the damage limit per single shot on the shield. Bows can generally fire fast enough that it's not an issue. It still takes an opticor a full clip to bring down their shield though.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:36
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nullifiers are the worst mob they've ever added.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:43
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Their shield doesn't bother me that much, I like that it protects units around the null and needs to take priority when they appear. What bothers me is being two shot by them in later waves of a T4. So strong!
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Feb 17, 2015 21:49
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Thor-Stryker posted:I stated this way back in alpha, but they should have added passive reloading and quadrupled reload times. That way you either alternate guns or invest in reload mods. The reality of what you're suggesting is that instead of being able to carry two unique weapons, you would have to carry around the two most identical weapons possible at all times. You couldn't carry around, say, a Soma and a Brakk; they have different engagement ranges and purposes, and rather than using each when you want to or when it fits the fight better, you're stuck switching off all the time and having to reposition constantly. End result is everybody has to go around with two of the same gun just in order to have one gun.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:52
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You deal with them the same way you deal with everything else, they just have a thousand times the EHP and stop you from using powers which is effectively a nerf to all powers, but especially the ones that are already poor performers. The best powers retain usefulness in spite of nullifiers, lesser powers do not.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:56
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Denzine posted:nullifiers are the worst mob they've ever added Nervos would like a word. God, gently caress those things.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:57
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I use the Burston Prime for raw damage and keep a nukor ready for situations that involve overwhelming numbers. Sweep that puppy across a crowd a few times and they're suddenly more worried about one another than they are about you. If your secondary doesn't cover for the weaknesses of your primary you're doing it wrong.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:59
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Why would my primary have a weakness?
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Feb 17, 2015 22:01
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Helter Skelter posted:Nervos would like a word. God, gently caress those things. Nervos were mobs?
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Feb 17, 2015 22:03
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Male Man posted:Why would my primary have a weakness?
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Feb 17, 2015 22:04
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Naturally Selected posted:Let's be fair here. They did add a few secondaries that reverse that role! (Telos, Synoid, even the Vaykor) I'd hate the idea of being *forced* to switch guns-just would be nice if you had more reasons to. Something like the current setup where you can have a shotgun primary with a Vaykor to hit long-range shots. I'm not denying that *some* secondaries are better than primaries or can fill opposite role of the primary, but that already narrows the scope to a select few secondaries that can fit those roles. However half the mods they've developed lends itself more to Sanctum style reload mechanics. Coldbird posted:The reality of what you're suggesting is that instead of being able to carry two unique weapons, you would have to carry around the two most identical weapons possible at all times. You couldn't carry around, say, a Soma and a Brakk; they have different engagement ranges and purposes, and rather than using each when you want to or when it fits the fight better, you're stuck switching off all the time and having to reposition constantly. Repositioning all the time is one of the primary purposes for passive long reloads, it diversifies game-play because your no-longer just running from mob to mob, pressing M1 at the same distance with the same weapon. I'm also an advocate for bringing secondary damage up to Primary damage levels so you're not actually gimping yourself by switching, just changing tactics and habits. Hell, even Team-Fortress 2 forces you to use two different weapons in conjunction with each other: The Solider gets a rocket launcher that's well rounded, but has to fall-back on a shotgun depending on the engagement. The Engineer has a close-range primary and a medium range secondary, forcing him to change tactics or runaway and reload. The Medic is split purely between two weapon-types, he HAS to switch depending on the situation. The Demoman has similar weapons with widely different purpose that require you to switch. DE just has a lovely design philosophy that's based on forcing level-grind for multiple weapons in order to progress. You could remove the secondary category almost entirely if you rolled them all into the primary one.
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Feb 17, 2015 22:15
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Sometimes a fella just wants to shootman's with pistols like a cowboy. Othertimes he wants big numbers and pretends that means its fun.
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Feb 17, 2015 22:20
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Secondaries have a higher average dps than primaries. That's not the problem. The problem is that it takes three loving seconds to swap guns. edit: do not make me have to swap guns with de's loving ridiculous ideas on how weapon swapping should be done, i swear to god ill cut u
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Feb 17, 2015 22:24
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Thor-Stryker posted:Repositioning all the time is one of the primary purposes for passive long reloads, it diversifies game-play because your no-longer just running from mob to mob, pressing M1 at the same distance with the same weapon. I'm also an advocate for bringing secondary damage up to Primary damage levels so you're not actually gimping yourself by switching, just changing tactics and habits. The basic structure of what you said - [class] uses weapon 1 for x situation and weapon 2 for y situation - is the opposite of how this passive reload thing would play out. Instead it would be [frame] uses weapon 2 when weapon 1 runs out, weapon 1 when weapon 2 runs out, etc. What you would see all the time is people dumping magazines into walls to go back to weapon 1 or 2 simply because the other isn't viable in situation x or y, or one is 30 and the other isn't, etc. The structure of the game doesn't support this well without a massive overhaul to weapons and mods which will never happen as long as the game is F2P and there's ~player investment~ on the line. Tribes Ascend, for all else it did wrong, did strike a good balance for passive reloads - long enough to make regular reloads work, but short enough to be handy. That game also had a lot of one-shot-per-reload guns though, and a fundamentally different model. The game could certainly use a better switch time that isn't mod or aura dependent, and passive reloads would be nice, but cramming in a super high reload time in order to force people to use the new system would just result in a bunch of lovely "emergent" gameplay. The idea I fielded at the time was to get rid of the concept of "equipped" weapons and have every weapon be available at all times.
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Feb 17, 2015 22:39
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The reason secondaries are worse than primaries is the same reason they are in real life; the whole point of carrying a pistol is to shoot your way back to the rifle you shouldn't have put down in the first place  
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Feb 17, 2015 22:45
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Denzine posted:Secondaries have a higher average dps than primaries. That's not the problem. I agree let's swap guns but let's lower the swap time too. My muscle instincts are such that when I run out of ammo in a primary weapon's magazine, I want to quickly switch to a sidearm to finish off the thing coming right towards me. Now in a game such as Warframe where there's poo poo constantly running towards you, that isn't as valid, particularly against Infested. However, with Corpus you could have a weapon take down a shield then swap to another for health. Or versus Grineer, a secondary to pop a butcher after taking down the bombard behind it. Someone tell me that wouldn't be Lord Wexia fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Feb 17, 2015 |
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Feb 17, 2015 22:46
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It wouldn't be more fun. Why need two guns to kill a dude when you can just mow him down with one.
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Feb 17, 2015 22:47
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Malachite_Dragon posted:It wouldn't be more fun. Why need two guns to kill a dude when you can just mow him down with one. Because Twin Gremlins are cool dual-nailguns but I never use them because Kohm supremacy.
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Feb 17, 2015 22:48
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Coldbird posted:What you would see all the time is people dumping magazines into walls to go back to weapon 1 or 2 simply because the other isn't viable in situation x or y, or one is 30 and the other isn't, etc. The structure of the game doesn't support this well without a massive overhaul to weapons and mods which will never happen as long as the game is F2P and there's ~player investment~ on the line. Why are you assuming you can only switch/reload when you're empty?
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Feb 17, 2015 22:51
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hooah posted:Why are you assuming you can only switch/reload when you're empty? I think because he is looking at it as maxing-dps. Like in WoW or something you have to mash all of your poo poo on cooldown so that you get maximum DPS at all times. If it was true passive reloading, your goal would be to empty your primary clip and immediately switch to your secondary so there is no loss in DPS. Warframe isn't really a game like that though (at least not that I've experienced so far), so I don't know why we have to think of it in those terms.
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Feb 17, 2015 22:55
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hooah posted:Why are you assuming you can only switch/reload when you're empty? His specific suggestion was to quadruple reload times but add passive reload and cut switch speed.
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Feb 17, 2015 23:47
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Coldbird posted:His specific suggestion was to quadruple reload times but add passive reload and cut switch speed. This sort of forced swapping isn't fun for a lot of people, and man, have fun doing a run if you didn't bring a secondary. They should just vastly cut down on swap-time. Instead of FORCING people to swap them, make there be fun reasons to go so, like more unconventional/ 'interesting' weapon options that would give people a reason to carry multiple weapons that don't 100% overlap. Like Penta w/ a backup conventional gun, Angstrom for the inverse, etc, weird status guns. Guns that are REALLY strong vs single targets or crowds (but not both) so you can have a reason to specialize the two guns you're allowed to bring.
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Feb 18, 2015 00:01
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Thats pretty much how I pick my weapons. Usual pairing is either the Penta and Gammacor, or Dread and exploding Bolto.
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Feb 18, 2015 00:11
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