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Safety Factor posted:Assault marines and raptors are just sad now that bikes are only a few points more. If bikes were a little bit more expensive I think they'd have their niche again and people might actually take them. Their only gimmick is deep strike and regular marines have easy access to that through drop pods. It's also pretty bad for chaos marines as their bikers have pistols and close combat weapons on top of everything else, making raptors entirely redundant. bikes just completely outclass jump infantry in 40k right now, in part due to the relentless rule. In addition to moving as quickly as a jump pack, plus having the jink rule, you also get to shoot two bolter shots per bike at any unit you charge on the way in, and you get an extra hammer of wrath attack. The only time you'd really want to choose jump infantry over bikes tend to be odd corner cases, like a specific terrain layout that requires jump units to traverse.
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Feb 19, 2015 13:18
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Reynold posted:Finished another assault cannon razorback today. Yup, these own. Clean and sharp, and the upgrade bits really Black Templared the hell out of these dudes. Terrain looks pretty good too, I might have to steal that idea of having the little steps leading up to some of the buildings. Is that the GW city board or something else (it doesn't look like theirs, but i see aquilas on it)?
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Feb 19, 2015 13:20
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Necron army update: Three Wraiths down and then I get to work on a Ghost Ark I've been putting off as long as I could.
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Feb 19, 2015 14:16
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Slimnoid's tales of Inquisitorial derring-do (and the  model he used) have inspired me to finally get off my duff and look into getting an Inquisition detachment to complement my Marines like I've been saying I'd do for a while. I'm currently running an Imperial Fists successor chapter, so there's a very heavy shooting component which I was hoping to augment with some cheap and dirty assault. What's the best general setup for this? My initial thought was to do an Inquisitor, Ministorum Priest, and a load of pistol-and-chainsword Acolytes in a transport, but that obviously has its flaws.
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Feb 19, 2015 15:22
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TheChirurgeon posted:bikes just completely outclass jump infantry in 40k right now, in part due to the relentless rule. In addition to moving as quickly as a jump pack, plus having the jink rule, you also get to shoot two bolter shots per bike at any unit you charge on the way in, and you get an extra hammer of wrath attack. The only time you'd really want to choose jump infantry over bikes tend to be odd corner cases, like a specific terrain layout that requires jump units to traverse. What about depending on chapter tactics? I'm putting together Raven Guard and bring able to use the jet packs in both movement and assault without penalty every turn seems like a pretty good bonus along with rerollong to wound of HoW attacks.
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Feb 19, 2015 17:05
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:What about depending on chapter tactics? I'm putting together Raven Guard and bring able to use the jet packs in both movement and assault without penalty every turn seems like a pretty good bonus along with rerollong to wound of HoW attacks. That can make them better, but generally for the cost the bonuses of bikes just outranks them. The most significant bonus to Raven Guard chapter tactics (free Scout move) is something their Jump Pack Infantry can't even benefit from because they are Bulky. Overall Assault Marines in any context are considered a fluffy but underwhelming choice.
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Feb 19, 2015 17:13
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:What about depending on chapter tactics? I'm putting together Raven Guard and bring able to use the jet packs in both movement and assault without penalty every turn seems like a pretty good bonus along with rerollong to wound of HoW attacks. Go with White Scars and give those assault marines hit and run (like they should probably have anyways), plus your bikes get hammer of wrath at str5. Both get improved, rather than 1 just getting a marginal buff.
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Feb 19, 2015 17:15
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adamantium|wang posted:And they're even limited in that role because Assault Sergeants aren't able to take combi-weapons. Dark Angels can  PantsOptional posted:Slimnoid's tales of Inquisitorial derring-do (and the AbusePuppy gave some advice on that a page or two back, but if you're looking for an assault team: 3 crusaders, psyker, priest, and 3-5 death cult assassins, in some sort of transport.
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Feb 19, 2015 17:18
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:What about depending on chapter tactics? I'm putting together Raven Guard and bring able to use the jet packs in both movement and assault without penalty every turn seems like a pretty good bonus along with rerollong to wound of HoW attacks. Along with everything else that has been said, consider that the bikes have a longer effective range and more shots on their targets prior to the charge due to having bolters, can carry special/heavy weapons, and have access to jink. Even with chapter tactics for Ravenguard you don't make up what bikes provide.
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Feb 19, 2015 17:31
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ANAmal.net posted:Yup, these own. Clean and sharp, and the upgrade bits really Black Templared the hell out of these dudes. Terrain looks pretty good too, I might have to steal that idea of having the little steps leading up to some of the buildings. Is that the GW city board or something else (it doesn't look like theirs, but i see aquilas on it)? Thanks, and yeah, the terrain is http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Warhammer_40,000_Terrain/REALM_OF_BATTLE_CITYSCAPE_BATTLEFIELD_SECTOR.html
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Feb 19, 2015 17:44
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Dark Angel bikes own even more because you can be a dick with Hit and Run, and you get free teleport homers. Also you can take Plasma or Meltaguns on them, where jump troops I think only get flamers. Scooting those shitbags up the board and dropping a squad of Deathwing on top them on turn 2 before the bikes tear off to go Meltamurder a tank is one of the few worthwhile party pieces DA can pull off (it's still a poo poo codex, though, don't get me wrong). It's pretty gross actually, that a bike is only 10 points more than an assault marine, given how much better they are in basically every way. Reynold posted:Thanks, and yeah, the terrain is http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Warhammer_40,000_Terrain/REALM_OF_BATTLE_CITYSCAPE_BATTLEFIELD_SECTOR.html Ah, I forgot ForgeWorld made realm of battle tiles. Those are rad as hell. ANAmal.net fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Feb 19, 2015 |
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Feb 19, 2015 18:26
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ANAmal.net posted:Dark Angel bikes own even more because you can be a dick with Hit and Run, and you get free teleport homers. Also you can take Plasma or Meltaguns on them, where jump troops I think only get flamers. Scooting those shitbags up the board and dropping a squad of Deathwing on top them on turn 2 before the bikes tear off to go Meltamurder a tank is one of the few worthwhile party pieces DA can pull off (it's still a poo poo codex, though, don't get me wrong). Bikes are so much better than jump infantry it's not even funny. Ravenwing are even expensive for bikes at 27 points each. Regular marines pay 21 points vs. 17 for an assault marine and chaos marines pay 20 points vs. 17 points for a raptor. It's crazy.
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Feb 19, 2015 18:32
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Consider also that tear-assing around the battlefield on a motorcycle is rad as all loving hell. I mean, OK, jet packs are also real fuckin' cool, but gunning your hog and running over a dude with it is fully sick.
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Feb 19, 2015 18:35
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I wonder if maybe Games Workshop enjoys a greater profit margin on bikes than on jump infantry.
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Feb 19, 2015 18:36
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Ignite Memories posted:I wonder if maybe Games Workshop enjoys a greater profit margin on bikes than on jump infantry. This is Games Workshop, of course they don't. Their greatest profit margins are Possessed Space Marines and Pyrovores.
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Feb 19, 2015 18:38
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ANAmal.net posted:Consider also that tear-assing around the battlefield on a motorcycle is rad as all loving hell. No one is arguing against that. How could anyone be against that? Bikes are rad as all hell. So is flying around on jet turbines and jumping on people so hard they die. It'd just be nice if assault marines had some breathing room or better rules so they got used more.
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Feb 19, 2015 18:49
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I'm not sure what you could do to make Close Combat jump infantry worth it. Give them more attacks? Make them immune to overwatch? No idea.
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Feb 19, 2015 18:51
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Just loving let them jump into/out of ruins without losing half my stormboyz, that would be a start.
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Feb 19, 2015 18:52
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Safety Factor posted:No one is arguing against that. How could anyone be against that? Bikes are rad as all hell. So is flying around on jet turbines and jumping on people so hard they die. It'd just be nice if assault marines had some breathing room or better rules so they got used more. Oh I'm not trying to argue with anyone, I was just thinking about how insanely cool motorcycles are and imagining a space marine popping a sick wheelie right into a mess of dudes. You're right about jump-jetting into a guy's face and pulverizing it, though.
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Feb 19, 2015 18:55
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serious gaylord posted:I'm not sure what you could do to make Close Combat jump infantry worth it. Give them more attacks? Make them immune to overwatch? No idea. Once per game give them the option to move up to 24" and until the beginning of the next turn all shooting attacks against the unit are Snap Shots unless the attacker has Skyfire, the unit gains Skyfire, but cannot declare an assault nor be assaulted.
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Feb 19, 2015 18:57
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Jink saves.
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Feb 19, 2015 18:58
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serious gaylord posted:I'm not sure what you could do to make Close Combat jump infantry worth it. Let them assault Flyers and Swooping FMCs. Jetting up into the sky to powerfist a Stormraven to death is pretty  and prime 40k in my book.
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Feb 19, 2015 19:00
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totally should be able to have storm boyz doing htis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7oK7oiQ3eA
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Feb 19, 2015 19:11
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serious gaylord posted:I'm not sure what you could do to make Close Combat jump infantry worth it. Give them more attacks? Make them immune to overwatch? No idea. Making the jump pack work in more than one goddamned phase at a time would be a good start. E: Seriously, bikes get +1T, a longer move, the options to jink or turbo boost, can't be pinned, Hammer of Wrath and Relentless. Jump infantry have to decide if they want to be useful in the movement phase and lose out on HoW and rerolling their charge or be useful in the assault phase and give up Skyborne and the longer move. What the hell? adamantium|wang fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Feb 19, 2015 |
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Feb 19, 2015 19:11
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PierreTheMime posted:Once per game give them the option to move up to 24" and until the beginning of the next turn all shooting attacks against the unit are Snap Shots unless the attacker has Skyfire, the unit gains Skyfire, but cannot declare an assault nor be assaulted. Slimnoid posted:Let them assault Flyers and Swooping FMCs. I'd be down with both of these, but I'd settle for being able to assault flyers. I'd even be willing to risk a dangerous terrain check to do that. Edit: I feel like this image sums up what assault marines are all about : 
Safety Factor fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Feb 19, 2015 |
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Feb 19, 2015 19:17
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Safety Factor posted:I'd be down with both of these, but I'd settle for being able to assault flyers. I'd even be willing to risk a dangerous terrain check to do that. I loving love that image. The other day there was a guy in the Oldhammer group selling some old 2nd ed original art pieces, but they weren't too big and they were going for 150 GBP each, which is decidedly too rich for my blood. Naturally, a friend of mine bought three. RE: Jump infantry: Why they can't assault flyers is beyond me. I had a game back in 5th with NecronSchmecron (who I haven't seen around in a bajillion years) where I assaulted his Valkyrie with my lone assault sergeant, ripped the wings and guns off, then eventually exploded it. Sgt. Mendoza went on to kill another Leman Russ or two, a squad of veterans, and god knows what else. Some say Sgt. Mendoza is still out there, punching things real good.
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Feb 19, 2015 19:54
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We played a game once where a Vindicare jumped off a building onto a passing flyer and shot the pilot with his pistol. It was a good game.
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Feb 19, 2015 19:57
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serious gaylord posted:I'm not sure what you could do to make Close Combat jump infantry worth it. Give them more attacks? Make them immune to overwatch? No idea. It's more reasonable to nerf bikes--make them mobile shooting platforms rather than competing close combat units. Let assault marines use their jump packs twice per turn all the time, and make it so bikes only count as stationary for shooting but can't shoot and assault unless they only shot with assault weapons. The problem is that both units are basically "assault" role units, but one is way better at shooting and just as good or better at assaulting (also we haven't even loving mentioned the TOUGHNESS BOOST in our lists of why bikes are better). You have to adjust the role of bikes to stop them from competing, and make them more like mobile midrange shooting rather than another CC unit. But the Space Marines are completely bloated and overrun with superfluous units thanks to having to create new units for each codex release and being completely unable to create new roles for every new unit added. E: Having jump infantry assault flyers is one fix, but only if they can all have meltabombs.
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Feb 19, 2015 19:59
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Bikes don't need to be nerfed - they were super overcosted in 5th edition and no one ran them. The solution is to buff Assault Marines. Aggressively. Make them cost as much as a Tac Marine, give them a 1pt Bolter and access to all special weapons, Jump Packs work in all phases, Hatred on the charge, and D3 Hammer of Wrath hits resolved at +2 Strength. Then you'd see them taken occasionally. Maybe throw in some kind of cool Blind grenade.
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Feb 19, 2015 20:05
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MasterSlowPoke posted:Bikes don't need to be nerfed - they were super overcosted in 5th edition and no one ran them. The solution is to buff Assault Marines. Aggressively. Make them cost as much as a Tac Marine, give them a 1pt Bolter and access to all special weapons, Jump Packs work in all phases, Hatred on the charge, and D3 Hammer of Wrath hits resolved at +2 Strength. Then you'd see them taken occasionally. Maybe throw in some kind of cool Blind grenade. The problem isn't the unit strength, it's the unit purpose--Marines have at least 5 dedicated assault units that all compete (vanguard vets, assault terminators, bikes, assault marines, assault centurions, and I'd argue that regular terminators also fill this role). Even if you buff Assault marines aggressively, you just make one of those obsolete. The solution has to involve creating clear, defined roles for each unit so there's a reason to take them beyond just points cost and unit type. TheChirurgeon fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Feb 19, 2015 |
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Feb 19, 2015 20:10
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BlackIronHeart posted:I was hoping to use the 15mm scale Leviathan Crusaders (or maybe Mortis variant) as Dreadknights but they weigh in at 4.5" tall which is way too out of scale, I feel. Don't worry. I bought two for the same purpose, and they are basically a perfect fit in size.
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Feb 19, 2015 20:38
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TheChirurgeon posted:The problem isn't the unit strength, it's the unit purpose--Marines have at least 5 dedicated assault units that all compete (vanguard vets, assault terminators, bikes, assault marines, assault centurions, and I'd argue that regular terminators also fill this role). Even if you buff Assault marines aggressively, you just make one of those obsolete. The solution has to involve creating clear, defined roles for each unit so there's a reason to take them beyond just points cost and unit type. Make Jump Infantry (and, hell, Genestealers) a specific exception to the "no assaulting after deep striking/coming in from reserves" rule.
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Feb 19, 2015 20:49
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The big problem with Assault Marines is their price- they fall in an awkward zone between normal troops and bikes, most especially because of the armies they are present in. Added to that, they don't have a well-defined role; they are a mediocre CC unit with no shooting to speak of that is less mobile than other options (bikes can move 24" in a turn, jump packs at best 18") and get fewer special rules and options. BA Assault Marines saw a lot of use because the rules of the army- and their different FoC slot- allowed them to do unique things that bikes could not. SM, SW, and DA versions, on the other hand, have weaker weapon options (Flamers and Plasma Pistols only, for no particular reason) and can't do anything of particular interest. Bringing them down in a cheap Drop Pod with double-flamers has a bit of value, but only as a way to fill out your turn 1 Pod count- apart from that, they do little that other units cannot do better. If GW wants to make them attractive, they need to either significantly drop their price (~15pts) and increase their weapon options (give them Grav/Melta pistols and Meltaguns) or give jump packs themselves better rules (can be used in the movement and assault phases both, resistance to DS mishaps, or some other bonus.) They simply serve no real purpose in armies these days, even those specifically designed to benefit them- the Raven Guard chapter tactic is absolutely laughable, and half of it doesn't even work for them. PantsOptional posted:Slimnoid's tales of Inquisitorial derring-do (and the A transport will be tricky because you want to be able to assault out of it (that's why you're taking the unit, after all) and the only one you can do that with is the Land Raider- which makes them not cheap anymore. You may have better luck with either a bastion/Bunker (which aren't too expensive, protect you well, are thematic, and let you hide behind or inside) or simply relying on terrain to keep yourself out of LOS until the turn you need to charge. As Slimnoid mentioned, my preferred setup is a mix of DCA and Crusaders (favoring the DCA) with a Priest for rerolls galore and an Inquisitor because you have to. I find the Psyker and Rad Grenades to be most useful for a CC group- wounding things on 3s or 2s with the reroll is badass and getting a psychic power and a Force Sword for 30pts is a pretty solid deal. Power Armor, Terminator Armor, and Servo-Skulls are also well worth considering, depending on points and the rest of your army. I typically give all of my Crusaders a Power Axe and all of my DCA a Power Sword and either an Axe or Maul to go with it.
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Feb 19, 2015 21:13
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Sulecrist posted:Make Jump Infantry (and, hell, Genestealers) a specific exception to the "no assaulting after deep striking/coming in from reserves" rule. Or just give tyranids an open topped transport to ferry stealers in...
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Feb 19, 2015 21:14
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AbusePuppy posted:I typically give all of my Crusaders a Power Axe and all of my DCA a Power Sword and either an Axe or Maul to go with it. Crusaders and DCA can only take power swords 
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Feb 19, 2015 21:37
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Uroboros posted:Or just give tyranids an open topped transport to ferry stealers in... Just what Tyranids need, more new models to make old ones useable 
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Feb 19, 2015 21:37
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Uroboros posted:Or just give tyranids an open topped transport to ferry stealers in... An open topped limousine, eh?
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Feb 19, 2015 21:54
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The genestealers are all just standing in the sunroof like teenage girls going to prom.
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Feb 19, 2015 22:16
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Slimnoid posted:Crusaders and DCA can only take power swords Yeah, it was a great way to run them for a brief period (release of 6th edition through to just after the digital inquisition release, when they errata'd the codex) but now power swords are the only option. I had gone to some lengths on conversions as well!
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Feb 19, 2015 22:39
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Slimnoid posted:Crusaders and DCA can only take power swords I thought that was only true for the versions available to Adeptus Sororitas, whereas the Inquisitorial ones still had the option of any power weapon? I could easily be wrong, though.
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Feb 19, 2015 22:58
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