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This all sounds eerily opposite of how it is in CTI land for E5/E6 advancement, if I had to guess I'd say CTN too as we're the only CTs that are almost 100% national mission only. I don't know anything about the chief's board. Collateral duties are one of the only things that guarantees you promotions and good evals, especially MP or EP. I've always been annoyed with the fact that it's impossible to relay the impact or difficulty of a project when we have to butcher it into an unclassified blurb. There are pre-made blurbs we use and we just tweak the numbers in them. People with multiple collaterals though always have stuffed-full evals and the only thing work-related that matters is your language scores, even if you're not a language analyst. Most of the 9ARB CTI1s I know were/are terrible at actual mission. The DoD notices this quickly and lets them move to have more time to play Navy and they padded up their evals enough as E5s to always get the EPs, or makes them mission managers, which the Navy loves (and actively brags about) because of how it seems like a leadership role when most of the time it's just someone who takes attendance and answers the phone after-hours for civilian leadership. The DoD moves crap sailors to MM positions when they notice they can't keep pace with mission pretty quickly where I work now, though it isn't always that way. I remember when the middle east first blew up again this year and we were pulling 6-12s how the dirtbag MMs were still getting three day weekends and reduced hours. One time the branch chief did find out that four sailors were spending 90% of their shifts studying for IDW in a conference room and immediately moved all of them to the MM office and replaced them with newbies.
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Feb 16, 2015 12:55
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ManMythLegend posted:Chief (and E-8/E-9) boards are poo poo shows that are governed by a mix of promotion requirements from PERS and board precepts from MCPON based on what he wants "his mess" to look like at any given time. It literally changes from year to year and especially from MCPON to MCPON. This is what I was talking about earlier and reflects my chats with half a dozen to a dozen COs and former. The chief selection boards are so god drat finicky from year to year that there is little effect a single CO can have to signal specifically "this is the guy that needs to be a chief this cycle." The most it seems a captain can do is try to do that and hope for the best. This is a huge area that local commands necessarily need to have a stronger influence since they are the ones that have to deal with all the shitbag E7s and up. Also, most of the time I ever heard someone bitching about "so and so only gets the points because they kiss rear end/have a million collaterals, etc" is from someone who is completely disconnected with the eval process and is usually a bit of a shitbag themselves. I've had two good sailors work for me that didn't get the EP evals they deserved and neither lost it because of collateral duties that they either had or didn't have. If you have two people who, all other things considered, are mostly equal, then yes extra curricular poo poo will win the day.
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Feb 16, 2015 14:18
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I dont get mad about it. I'll often spend 50+ hours of work at week because that's the only way I can get the national mission done, and fulfill the Navy requirements. Will I get an EP for it? Doubtful due to a lack of volunteer hours. Am I bitter about it? Not at all, I'm well aware of the check boxes they want me to hit for evals. But I also know there are bigger prospects beyond the Navy. If I dont like my situation I always have have the power to not reenlist.
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Feb 16, 2015 15:03
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If you really are the best in the division at what you do, make sure someone above you knows. I was an EP sailor when enlisted without any collaterals outside of my division or participation in any command-wide groups, but it's also because not only did I excel at my job, but people knew it. I'm not saying you need to be a braggart or a kissass, but keeping a detailed list of poo poo you did during the day and keeping your boss up to date with what you're working on are vital. When you get done with your assigned stuff, be proactive. Do more than you're asked to do, but keep your people above you well informed. The further detached from your reporting senior you are, the more visible you need to be. If all you do every day is just punch the clock and collect a paycheck, then that's probably what you're going to get on the backside as well.
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Feb 16, 2015 15:11
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This is mostly for Sir Lucius/Analogical... From what I have seen, the process is very much a crapshoot on the enlisted side from command to command, and especially from Mess to Mess. The goal here is to make sure you have 1) some sort of collateral/extra-curricular time represents, your operational job, and some administrative love (i.e. leadership). Ideally, your eval should look like 33.33% collateral involvement, 33.33% Navy feel-good sailor-leading administrativa, and 33.33% your operational job. Silly? Yes. But the Navy tends to value well-rounded sailors who are not only proficient in their jobs but rounded in multiple areas as well. The biggest problem that I tend to see if when people end up having more like a... 50/25/25 split (collateral, job, leadership) or the other end of the spectrum where they have little to no leadership/collateral involvement and are "all operational". Which, sounds good in theory but unfortunately since the majority of what you do operationally cannot be represented (or does not translate well) onto an eval, a lot of the good stuff done gets lost in translation by the time it's at the U//FOUO level. That, and people who are involved in collaterals tend to be more visible to more people and their name sticks out in people's minds when it comes time to rack and stack. Do I agree with it personally? Not really. I think it creates a lot of subjectivity in the process....but I do understand why commands do it. Just my 2 cents. edit: some of this is a bit unique to our command specifically because of the 1) extremely decentralized nature of personnel and 2) the operational/administrative compartmentalization of everything. buttplug fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Feb 16, 2015 |
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Feb 16, 2015 17:28
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So in the Navy eval process there's a board comprised of chiefs and/or officers at a command that may or may not be in or even anywhere near your chain, and quite certainly not within your rating dealing with your evals? Am I reading that right?
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Feb 16, 2015 21:06
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krispykremessuck posted:So in the Navy eval process there's a board comprised of chiefs and/or officers at a command that may or may not be in or even anywhere near your chain, and quite certainly not within your rating dealing with your evals? Am I reading that right? For E5 and Under: You generally have the First Class Petty Officer Association vote on rankings for evals, which get passed up to the Chiefs who look at it and vote on their own rankings. Then the officers look at it. Usually they stick with the Chief recommendations. For E6 just cut out the FCPOA ranking, since we don't rank ourselves...publicly.
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Feb 16, 2015 21:13
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I think I'm pretty well balanced, if not skewed a lot more towards operations. But I'm also not of the opinion that the Navy owes me anything beyond your basics (healthcare, education, housing allowance, etc). I've already achieved what I wanted to inside the Navy, and my next ambitions go beyond what they can offer. Getting an EP/promoting would be a nice perk, but it will change very little about my future in the long run.
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Feb 16, 2015 21:15
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krispykremessuck posted:So in the Navy eval process there's a board comprised of chiefs and/or officers at a command that may or may not be in or even anywhere near your chain, and quite certainly not within your rating dealing with your evals? Am I reading that right? Yes but if the chiefs that do know you are worth a poo poo they'll fight for you on the board assuming you're not a piece of poo poo. The biggest problem I've seen from ranking boards I've sat is no one likes making GBS threads all over people that should get poo poo on. If the other firsts are pushing for someone to get an mp or ep because on paper they look good but in real life they are awful at their job (for whatever reason ) I'll ask them if this is a sailor they'd want as their acting lpo if they were a chief. Most of the time the answer is a no punctuated with a lot of buts. If someone can't do the job of a first class why set them up for it? If they get kicked out for HYT who loving cares, thats what the system is their to do. Instead I'm going to end up paying the retirements of a bunch of fucks that get intimidated by the SNs they're instructing, and will make a mess in the fleet. PneumonicBook fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Feb 16, 2015 |
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Feb 16, 2015 21:16
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PneumonicBook posted:Yes but if the chiefs that do know you are worth a poo poo they'll fight for you on the board assuming you're not a piece of poo poo. Which of course means that rankings end up a reflection of which chief in the mess has the most pull.
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Feb 16, 2015 21:19
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Stultus Maximus posted:Which of course means that rankings end up a reflection of which chief in the mess has the most pull. It can, yea. Which is why it's important to be known positively outside your chain. It's a really easy game to play. The people that fight it are the angsty ones who get Ps for days.
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Feb 16, 2015 21:24
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PneumonicBook posted:Yes but if the chiefs that do know you are worth a poo poo they'll fight for you on the board assuming you're not a piece of poo poo. The idea of someone not in my own rating or at least nominally within my supervisory chain of command dealing with my eval sounds like total bullshit. Especially for reasons like what ... whoever it was earlier talking about having small inputs once whatever they work on is boiled down to the unclas level. Jesus Christ. Make's the CG's eval system seem downright awesome by comparison.
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Feb 16, 2015 22:39
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krispykremessuck posted:The idea of someone not in my own rating or at least nominally within my supervisory chain of command dealing with my eval sounds like total bullshit. Especially for reasons like what ... whoever it was earlier talking about having small inputs once whatever they work on is boiled down to the unclas level. Jesus Christ. Make's the CG's eval system seem downright awesome by comparison. The ranking boards are just figuring out who gets the #1 EP, #2 EP, etc within the reporting senior's group. Your eval is still written and routed through your chain of command, and your reporting senior still has the final call on how to rank people. The only things done by a board completely outside of your command are selection boards for things like chief and O-4+.
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Feb 16, 2015 22:58
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Wingnut Ninja posted:The ranking boards are just figuring out who gets the #1 EP, #2 EP, etc within the reporting senior's group. Your eval is still written and routed through your chain of command, and your reporting senior still has the final call on how to rank people. The only things done by a board completely outside of your command are selection boards for things like chief and O-4+. I don't think I'm going to get it, especially since I'm not subject to it. I'm not sure without me experiencing it directly I'd understand it, or think it's a good idea. I get having to play the game though, so I suppose I'll leave it at that.
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Feb 16, 2015 23:27
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Sir Lucius posted:I think I'm pretty well balanced, if not skewed a lot more towards operations. But I'm also not of the opinion that the Navy owes me anything beyond your basics (healthcare, education, housing allowance, etc). I've already achieved what I wanted to inside the Navy, and my next ambitions go beyond what they can offer. Getting an EP/promoting would be a nice perk, but it will change very little about my future in the long run. Ditto on the quality of life standard. I really like the operational side too, and at E5 that's the best time to get a chance to focus solely on that. E6s seem to immediately become workplace supers or LPOs and I haven't met too many people that were too happy with the change, but again that's probably CT cultural for those of us that really like national. My last Chief reminded all of us once that the fast promotions are more about the Navy giving us money so we won't get poached by contractors to curb the attrition rate nobody seems to be able to solve. Mr. Nice! posted:~words~ Unfortunately it's not as easy as that for most of us, and I swear I'm not trying to be snotty or anything about this and BP correct me if I'm wrong. For me, Navy leadership can't know what I do even on a basic level and has no idea where or what I've been doing for the past ten months to a year due to it all being compartmented (and naturally they aren't read-on) even though I'm still in their division. All they know is I'm always TDY to other locations and they see me every few months for two weeks or so and I'm never in uniform. They own me administratively, navy-wise, so they handle my evals and keep track of my DOR and everything else still. It can differ sometimes, but working in the same office you'll have people who are administratively in completely different divisions that the DoD moves around arbitrarily to different shops, so the Navy has a hard time keeping track of their sailors because sometimes there's no strict 1:1 match-up of Navy Division:DoD Office, the DoD just sees personnel and an opening and moves them. I feel like this creates a bit of an issue when it does come to comparing the sailors to each other, and it's not the Navy's fault it's just how it ended up becoming over the past 20 years. There are some sailors who the DoD keeps in the same spots for whatever reason and there's others they send places, if you're the latter you usually get great training and travel but suffer due to a lack of facetime and Navy-time with your chain, and 80% of the time when they send you somewhere it's with the understanding you won't go home and talk about it much less write it up for a performance eval. But then when I get new orders, I could be the person who stays in one spot, so thats when I get to build my evals back up. The trick is just going with the flow. Every now and then Chief/DIVO will mention off-handedly that the Navy is trying to find a way to create a separate mechanism for classified evals, but that it's stuck in the mud since all evals are sent out of the command to personnel without clearances who wouldn't like that we were graded based on another document they weren't allowed to see. I can see how that could have big issues of it's own with nepotism and fraud, so really we all just keep rolling the D20 in spookville.
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Feb 16, 2015 23:57
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It's a selfish mindset to have, but the Navy has to convince me to stay in, not the other way around. Throwing a big fat SRB is a good start, but we also hang around a lot of overpaid contractors that fill our heads with ideas (and sometimes try to under-the-table poach us). I honestly never commit to the "im definitely getting out!" mentality, because life can always change. But I will eventually come to a point where I need to make that decision, and I'll have an eval of my own for the Navy. I really can say I haven't really had that bad of an experience, and my leadership does a pretty good job and makes fair judgments. But sometimes you can do everything right and still not get a perfect evaluation. If the Navy can't suit my needs I might have to give it a P.
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Feb 17, 2015 03:29
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Sir Lucius posted:It's a selfish mindset to have, but the Navy has to convince me to stay in, not the other way around. Throwing a big fat SRB is a good start, but we also hang around a lot of overpaid contractors that fill our heads with ideas (and sometimes try to under-the-table poach us). I honestly never commit to the "im definitely getting out!" mentality, because life can always change. But I will eventually come to a point where I need to make that decision, and I'll have an eval of my own for the Navy. I really can say I haven't really had that bad of an experience, and my leadership does a pretty good job and makes fair judgments. But sometimes you can do everything right and still not get a perfect evaluation. If the Navy can't suit my needs I might have to give it a P. That's probably the most mature way to handle the whole situation, honestly. Things change all the time, maybe some crazy flip bitch will get pregnant with your baby and you will be too scared to push her down the stairs, so it's always good to keep that door open. Definitely make sure that you keep on good terms with your contractors. I didn't pursue work with the DOD or and contracts when I separated, but I would like to think that I would have maybe stood some chance getting a job if I would have tried since I wasn't a shithead to the contractors we had around.
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Feb 17, 2015 03:41
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We've been doing a lot of training and I do radio and communications stuff for my command, and a few other things like 3M when they need me to do it. For the past few days I've had people ranging from E3s to 05s telling me that I'm the best trainer they've ever had for comms, and one of the best they've had for Navy stuff in general.  It is probably because I yell, tell jokes, and don't use power point. Edit for other navy talk: I'm 99% going to be getting out, but I have a year left on my contract after my PRD is up here. Right now my current (first and maybe only) command is buttering me up for staying here for that year instead of taking orders at a NOSC or a ship (which I would have to extend for.) I've been told that I'm getting severed from all the administrative stuff that I have right now in the next few months (whether or not I'm staying), and that if I stay I'll be used as a one man tiger team who can pull from the shop's manpower to go around fixing all the huge electronics issues that the CRS community as a whole is having. In addition to that I'll be used as a mobile trainer for getting 3M and EKMS qualifications out of the way for all of our detachments that are off in other states to ease the training burden on our everyone. That seems like a pretty cool job set, since it pretty much comes down to me working autonomously to solve problems instead of the constant administrative drudgery that I've been stuck in for the past almost-four years. It's awesome because it's very nearly my chain of command throwing me on a big exceptions list to get things done outside of normal administrative means because they trust me to do it well, where normally those functions are there to prevent people from loving things up enormously. All of those things above have pretty much been what I've really wanted to do, and I think it'd be a good, productive closure to my stint in the Navy to be able to do all of that instead of becoming a tax burden off in some NOSC. Commoners fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Feb 17, 2015 |
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Feb 17, 2015 04:02
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Commoners posted:
The key to good instruction. Who cares if you are good at it, so long as you don't use powerpoint you are golden.
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Feb 17, 2015 15:41
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I'll just add to what Mr Nice and MML said by saying I've sat on many ranking boards and never has collateral duties been anything other than a tiebreaker between two sailors that were doing really, really well at their primary job. That said, on to more important stuff. Check out my new dogge! 
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Feb 17, 2015 16:23
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Analogical posted:Intel Woes Yeah, I get that it's difficult to put exactly what you did on your eval because it has to be on an unclass level. Can't you put generalities, though? Spent 10 months attached to X, X, and X performing over x hours of in rate work without any violations" or something like that.
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Feb 17, 2015 16:38
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vulturesrow posted:I'll just add to what Mr Nice and MML said by saying I've sat on many ranking boards and never has collateral duties been anything other than a tiebreaker between two sailors that were doing really, really well at their primary job. Good dog.
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Feb 17, 2015 16:39
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Mr. Nice! posted:Good dog.
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Feb 17, 2015 16:50
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vulturesrow posted:That said, on to more important stuff. Check out my new dogge! Give this dogge an EP for fluffy cuteness.
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Feb 17, 2015 19:28
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Pandasmores posted:Give this dogge an EP for fluffy cuteness. Aww yeah. Promote dem little paws.
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Feb 17, 2015 20:19
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I get to drive back home tomorrow to see dogge, I'm curious if she'll remember at this point since she's lived with my girlfriend over half her life now (2 next month).
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Feb 17, 2015 23:23
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Laranzu posted:Aww yeah. Promote dem little paws. Sort of hard to tell from that pic but his paws are pretty big. He's going to be a big guy.
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Feb 17, 2015 23:38
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vulturesrow posted:I'll just add to what Mr Nice and MML said by saying I've sat on many ranking boards and never has collateral duties been anything other than a tiebreaker between two sailors that were doing really, really well at their primary job. I'm more jazzed about that shag carpet 
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Feb 18, 2015 00:36
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Analogical posted:I'm more jazzed about that shag carpet It's not shag, standard issue builder's grade carpet.
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Feb 18, 2015 00:47
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Two snow days in a row for Hampton Roads. Shame shame shame.
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Feb 18, 2015 05:32
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It's been interesting seeing which of my Norfolk friends are considered "essential" and which ones aren't.
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Feb 18, 2015 05:44
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I'm definitely not essential. My three day turned into a five day, and it is glorious.
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Feb 18, 2015 18:11
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Base security was hilarious today. Guy with scanner gun gives ID back to this dude in a Dodge pickup. MA standing behind him asks the guy with the scanner gun why he let the Dodge guy through the gate with a dog in a government vehicle. Scanner Gun: Oh, I thought it was like his seeing eye dog. MA: THEN WHY THE gently caress WOULD HE BE DRIVING!??! Scanner Gun: I don't know I guess the dog barks when he's about to crash into something? *shrugs*
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Feb 19, 2015 22:11
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Today my first class told me to leave work to go to PT. I walked across base, just to get a text from the same first class as soon as I had changed that PT was cancelled. I'd normally take it as a good omen, but I fell on the ice during the walk. I really miss my five day weekend.
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Feb 19, 2015 22:36
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Pandasmores posted:Base security was hilarious today. What's the problem with having a dog in a gov vehicle? Meowlins come to my rescue with your encyclopedic instruction skills!
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Feb 20, 2015 00:36
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Fart Sandwiches posted:What's the problem with having a dog in a gov vehicle? Meowlins come to my rescue with your encyclopedic instruction skills! official use only for official doges only.
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Feb 20, 2015 02:05
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Fart Sandwiches posted:What's the problem with having a dog in a gov vehicle? Meowlins come to my rescue with your encyclopedic instruction skills! Yeah, the correct response is "who the gently caress cares, more dogges, more awesome".
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Feb 20, 2015 02:55
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Fart Sandwiches posted:What's the problem with having a dog in a gov vehicle? Meowlins come to my rescue with your encyclopedic instruction skills! As long as the dog has all of the proper PPE, what is the problem?
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Feb 20, 2015 06:38
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Akula Raskolnikova posted:Today my first class told me to leave work to go to PT. I walked across base, just to get a text from the same first class as soon as I had changed that PT was cancelled. I'd normally take it as a good omen, but I fell on the ice during the walk. I really miss my five day weekend. I'm on swings. The XO literally just got finished telling everyone how they are seeing more accidents due to drowsy driving and that chiefs and division officers should watch out for this. Then we're all told to be at a formally optional PT session at 0600-0700 , then back on that base around noon for training. It's a decent drive from where we work.
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Feb 20, 2015 07:03
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Laranzu posted:I'm on swings. The XO literally just got finished telling everyone how they are seeing more accidents due to drowsy driving and that chiefs and division officers should watch out for this. paperclip
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Feb 20, 2015 07:10
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