|
Shageletic posted:You inpute real world morality and character judgement to fictional characters because the show was trying to inpute real world morality and character judgment to fictional characters. That was the point. Trying to say who gives a poo poo what Walt did, at least he was cool, is missing the whole theme of the show. The fact that "who do I root for" is the ultimate critical question for many people is an extremely shallow read of any media, and basically that's all people argued about with respect to Breaking Bad. "Is it ok to like Walter White" is just a pointless loving question because he's not a real person. His flaws are constructed to narrative end.
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 21:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 18:35 |
|
|
You talk about media like your opinions are objective fact. Who "you root for" might not be the most elegant language, but it covers a lot of important ground (i.e. what are the creators trying to say, is this something that isn't satisfying narratively, the ugliness of something meant to exploit the worst parts of people, exploitation period, loving etc.)
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 21:35
|
|
|
Now it is You who talk about media like your opinions are objective fact !! (edit... IMO)
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 21:48
|
|
|
Spatula City posted:I will never understand this mindset. Walter White is a pathetic person, and you'd have to fast forward through a lot of scenes to miss that, or be a colossal idiot. Or, I dunno, a violence-desensitized borderline sociopath. I think it's easy to understand why those people were drawn to the show in the first place, and why they seemed to stay with it all the way to the end. People complain a lot about the "bad fans", seemingly without realizing that the show pandered to them constantly. Sure Walt would melt down occasionally, or do something really contemptible. But he always went right back to being the badass who killed all the bad guys, outsmarted the cops and stared down hardened criminals with his awesome one-liners etc.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 21:49
|
|
|
Fact: the best part of the LOST finale was the commercial that aired during it that used the smoke monster to sell fire alarms.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 22:09
|
|
|
I can't understand the mentality of watching that show stewing in repulsion of the main character. Did you read the title of the show? Bad is the product. We know that it's bad.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 22:17
|
|
|
I find it hard to hate a guy who's only crime is caring too much for his family.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 22:22
|
|
|
Irish Joe posted:I find it hard to hate a guy who's only crime is caring too much for his family. Beautiful set up by Irish Joe as always. Who will step up to spike this one?
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 22:24
|
|
|
He just wanted to make sure Walt Jr could have whatever breakfast he wanted every day of his life is that too much
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 22:26
|
|
|
EvilTobaccoExec posted:Now it is You who talk about media like your opinions are objective fact !! I am...undone... Sakarja posted:I think it's easy to understand why those people were drawn to the show in the first place, and why they seemed to stay with it all the way to the end. People complain a lot about the "bad fans", seemingly without realizing that the show pandered to them constantly. Sure Walt would melt down occasionally, or do something really contemptible. But he always went right back to being the badass who killed all the bad guys, outsmarted the cops and stared down hardened criminals with his awesome one-liners etc. Yeah, its probably why I think the best episode was Ozymandias and why I'm not that fan of the ending. To my interpreation, the show was always about the perils of male pride, and it hit that with a vengeance. The ending turned what was an iconic point you'd only see hit as powerfully in some of my favorite films, to something less. Still love the show though. EDIT: Spoilered above. Ending talk. Shageletic fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Feb 23, 2015 |
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 22:32
|
|
|
Breaking Bad is also a really gorgeous show to look at, some of the best cinematography and most beautiful landscape footage ever seen on TV. It's the best tourism ad for New Mexico that state could have possibly hoped for, visually.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 22:41
|
|
|
Ozymandias should have been the ending I agree. Not too keen on reducing the series into a parable though. ^New Mexico is beautiful. Great place to visit.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 22:43
|
|
|
Shageletic posted:Yeah, its probably why I think the best episode was Ozymandias and why I'm not that fan of the ending. To my interpreation, the show was always about the perils of male pride, and it hit that with a vengeance. The ending turned what was an iconic point you'd only see hit as powerfully in some of my favorite films, to something less. Still love the show though. Right. I think Walt's story should've ended with him killed in Ozymandias. That would have made sense thematically. The fact that it didn't happen cut the legs out from under the entire story. As you say, it's about a man consumed by pride, who creates a monster that ultimately destroys him along with everyone around him. To have him then come back from the dead, kill the monster and set everything right (as far as possible) is without a doubt the dumbest thing I've ever seen in any of the big prestige dramas. But the ending is just the worst example of something that happened constantly in the show. That's why I think it's so easy to understand the perspective of the "bad fans". Of course you're going to root for the badass who always wins in the end. Of course you're going to hate the wife who only gets in the way of his awesome adventures etc. etc.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 23:39
|
|
|
Breaking Bad is (objectively if you subscribe to the culture you live in) one of the best TV shows ever made, or at least a cultural milestone you can use to connect with your fellow humans. It's possibly the same reason people say you should watch The Wire or Seinfeld if you're a bit older. Things may not seem perfect, but it's an amazing descent of a normal person with suspect intentions into his eternal ego. Bitch.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 23:48
|
|
|
The Breaking Bad finale owns because it looks at the "Walter White is an evil man who should be taken down" arguments, agrees, and then rewards Walt anyway 
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 23:52
|
|
|
I like Breaking Bad because it's a story about a pathetic, incompetent, impotent man who destroys the lives of everyone he encounters and dies alone and considers it all to have been a success. That owns and is hilarious.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 00:00
|
|
|
Regy Rusty posted:I like Breaking Bad because it's a story about a pathetic, incompetent, impotent man who destroys the lives of everyone he encounters and dies alone and considers it all to have been a success. That owns and is hilarious. Hank isn't that bad
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 00:02
|
|
|
MrAristocrates posted:What? Why? An Ounce of Gold posted:My girlfriend and I stopped at the same exact spot. We were just bored to tears. Anything cool usually happens in the first 5 mins or the last 10. In between it's just a boring soap opera with minor plot lines that just peter out to nothing. "oh here comes his wife again, oh here is the son, oh the sister in law is stealing, oh hank likes rocks"... yawn. My beef is that the show has a lot of "dead air" timewasting and sideplots that don't really go anywhere or do anything interesting with the characters (remember the Skylar secretly smoking subplot? Neither does anyone else.). It feels like there are entire episodes that are wasted. BUT when it's good, it's loving perfect. I rewatched Hank's death scene on youtube the other day and goddamn, that couldn't have been written/directed/acted any better. Similarly Better Call Saul has the feel, cinematography, smart dialogue and effort that makes it just seem miles better than anything else on TV right now. I also kinda got out when I did because I was bored of Gus. I thought the big moment in Boxcutter (while well-directed) turned the character into a dumb cartoon villain and I didn't want to sit through another season of him knowing he would be untouchable until the finale. Plus Walter and Jesse became too unlikeable to me when they killed Gale - I didn't want to spend more time with those characters. (Christ knows how people still rooted for Walt when he literally poisoned a child.) So I caught up on a youtube summary or two to catch up on season 5 and tuned back in during all the talk of the pre-Ozymandias cliffhanger. Only things I didn't understand for all my skipping was the ricin back-and-forth, and Jesse's flashbacks to woodworking. Like I say, I really enjoyed the moments of the show where things were happening, and for the record that doesn't mean violence - I was quite bored by the absurd bodycount of Mexicans in the show who all seemed to be portrayed as killing each other by the dozens. I mean when there was actual moral ambiguity and tension and cool character moments. Anyway, since I'm enjoying Better Call Saul and because I liked Mike a lot - is there enough good meaty content to season 4 and 5 that it's worth visiting, even though I know its ultimate destination? Irish Joe posted:They did finish it. They just skipped the boring middle episodes, is all. And, really, there's no point in going back since they already know Walt didn't kill Gus in the first twelve episodes of the season anyway. zoux posted:I will never understand the mindset of applying real world morality and character judgement to fictional characters who's actions are fabricated to tell a story. "Ooooh he's a bad guy! I don't like him!" is the musing of a child. I can't imagine anyone shutting off their own moral scale and brain and saying "well it doesn't matter, it is a fictional pre-written narrative and my conclusion is whatever the writers decide it is."
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 00:03
|
|
|
Fooz posted:Ozymandias should have been the ending I agree. Not too keen on reducing the series into a parable though. The countryside is basically another character that should be listed in the main credits after the main two leads. And maybe Skylar.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 00:09
|
|
|
It's not worth going back and watching, no. Aside from Mike dying you aren't missing anything you haven't seen a dozen times over in the show already and will probably see a dozen times again in Better Call Saul.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 01:03
|
|
|
VagueRant posted:This is the second time I've seen this expressed on the forums and it is insane to me. How are you not then bored by any moral ambiguity in fiction? Until those final few eps, I insisted the peak of Breaking Bad was the second or third episode - the ones with the guy in the basement. Because what would I do in that situation? It's fascinating and gripping and interesting. A self-focused approach to media seems awfully limiting, although I guess that's kind of implicit since the conversation is about ditching a show for being unrelatable. I'm not particularly concerned with what I'd do in any given situation because I probably wouldn't be in that situation to begin with (consider that even in the moral quandary about killing crazy 8 that its still the result of running a meth-mobile, and only after rejecting charity). Same as with examining history, it's far more interesting and worthwhile to examine what the characters choose to do and what drives those decisions for them within their own experiences, morals, and customs than applying my own. I suspect your approach might also be part of why many of the subplots fell so flat for you; things like Skyler smoking and Marie stealing pale in comparison to main plot's stakes, but in terms of character, those are still relatively big events for them that tell you a lot about those people and their reactions to the forces around them. Even something like Jr getting busted buying beer is important, not because I give a poo poo about kids drinking but because it's his own minor foray outside the law and, more importantly, the events better inform us of his character and its relation to the characters around him. With someone like Walt, the viewer deciding he's finally bad guy or pinpointing when he "switched" is actually irrelevant, the draw is the descent and how he reacts to circumstances along the way as he transforms, not the fact that he transforms. It's easy to mark him off as bad guy and call it a day, but it's more interesting to look at those places where "why" isn't so easy to answer, and the most interesting answers to those question aren't often going to be tied to your own conventions of morality. Ultimately I think it's far less important for characters to be likeable and relatable than it is for them to be interesting. And Breaking Bad is a case where there are times its most interesting characters are neither likeable nor relatable. EvilTobaccoExec fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Feb 24, 2015 |
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 01:44
|
|
|
Fooz posted:I can't understand the mentality of watching that show stewing in repulsion of the main character. Did you read the title of the show? Bad is the product. We know that it's bad. I never "stewed in repulsion". I love the show, I just never watched it seeing Walter as a badass. He's an egomaniacal prick with self-serving justifications for his shittiness, and it is UTTERLY FASCINATING to watch him plunge further and further.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 06:03
|
|
|
I watched it all and i rate it very highly, but my hatred for Walter White almost had me give a handful of times. There is a difference in being a Machiavellian style manipulator, and someone who is just grasping for air, manipulating those around them in a twisted "love" or need. Not a big fan of the latter. I've seen it once, it'll be a long long time before i watch it again
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 06:14
|
|
|
Yeah, it seems weird to imply that if I hate the character I must hate the show or be viscerally affected. Walter White was evil. I hated him. But he was just a TV character I wanted to see get poetic justice. He wasn't making me fear for humanity or something. The thread did that.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 06:16
|
|
|
Am I the only goon watching Allegiance? Sure, it's basically Sherlock Holmes the CIA analyst but has been pretty fun so far with nice pacing.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 06:19
|
|
|
I like it! It's The Americans, with cell phones.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 06:24
|
|
|
Rocksicles posted:I like it! Oddly I have all the episodes of Americans on my DVR but have never watched them (yet). I'm getting around to it. Based on what I've read, the similarities are only skin deep, but can't judge for myself.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 06:34
|
|
|
I wish they found different actors for the Better Call Saul flashbacks. Bob Odenkirk does not look any younger in any costume.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 06:39
|
|
|
Skin deep yeah, it has nowhere near the game The Americans has. But i'm a sucker for espionage stuff.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 06:43
|
|
|
Fooz posted:I wish they found different actors for the Better Call Saul flashbacks. Bob Odenkirk does not look any younger in any costume. See, I feel the exact opposite way. I have absolutely no problem suspending some disbelief and just accepting that an actor is playing younger if the actor himself is important and good enough to be worth using in that scene. On the other hand casting a different actor to fill a younger or older version of an important character is going to have a huge hurdle to get over with me as I compare them to the main actor and feel disconnected. This of course doesn't apply to really extreme age gaps like with a kid version. And on a rare occasion an actor does an uncanny job playing a younger version of another actor's character and really makes me buy in.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 06:47
|
|
|
Fooz posted:I wish they found different actors for the Better Call Saul flashbacks. Bob Odenkirk does not look any younger in any costume. I dont. My favorite thing in television is the flashback to a younger time, accomplished by baggier clothes and longer hair. Biggest disappointment of last year was Boardwalk Empire actually finding amazing actors for all its past sequences instead of just letting Steve Buscemi play a 20 year old.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 06:49
|
|
|
Saul already wears baggier, ill fitting suits in BCS in the 'present', that's one of the first things I noticed.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 07:08
|
|
|
Fooz posted:I wish they found different actors for the Better Call Saul flashbacks. Bob Odenkirk does not look any younger in any costume.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 07:15
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw5vcUPyL90 So that is a thing. It might be a little too GRITTY REBOOT for some people but I thought it was pretty cool, didn't overstay its welcome and all that.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 10:14
|
|
|
I was amazed by how Danny DeVito was able to play himself as a teenager in Sunny. It was like they found a time machine!
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 11:29
|
|
|
Gotham is a pretty violent show. Like last night's episode had one character gouge their own eye out with a spoon.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 13:11
|
|
|
Sober posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw5vcUPyL90 I clicked this dreading it because I thought it would be the stupidest thing ever committed to film. And for the most part it was. But that was clearly the point. The person that made this clearly decided to take the goofiest show and bathe it in blood and guts in order to make some kind of commentary on the trend of movies doing just that. Only he decided to take it to its inevitable ending and just loads it with dark poo poo for the sake of dark poo poo. It's terrible but I understand what they were trying to do so I guess that counts for something. I would bet at almost no point did the people making this (writer/director) think they were making something cool. But it will surely be called that by many people totally missing the point.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 13:26
|
|
|
It's by Joseph Kahn, who wrote and directed Torque, Detention and Taylor Swift's Blank Space music video, so yes, he knew exactly what he was making and it's exactly what you'd expect him to make when you hear 'Joseph Kahn's Power Rangers.' It's got it's tongue firmly in cheek and I recommend you check out his feature films.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 13:34
|
|
|
"Detention" is my personal pick for the most underrated movie of this decade. DivisionPost has gotten me into a lot of good stuff, but that one's probably my favourite.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 13:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 18:35 |
|
|
Bown posted:"Detention" is my personal pick for the most underrated movie of this decade. DivisionPost has gotten me into a lot of good stuff, but that one's probably my favourite. It's cool when we agree on things. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 14:00
|
|