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Often hardcore board game fans express bewilderment at how popular some of the deck builders that aren't Dominion are, even though by most objective measures, they're not as solid, mechanically. Well, I'm one of those people who's played Legendary, Thunderstone, Star Realms, etc, but never Dominion. I can't speak for everybody, but to me, it's the art and theme of Dominion that fill me with spectacular disinterest. Oh hey, another game with a medieval Europe theme and budget looking art. Snoooooze. I can see how, for people who consider the mechanics of a game to be the key thing, that's incomprehensible. Wish they'd make the equivalent of Star Trek Catan for it.
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Feb 26, 2015 00:08
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They actually brought it up specifically, they just said that their group was able to look past it and enjoy the game from a mechanical standpoint. Though I don't remember their phrasing specifically.
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Feb 26, 2015 00:09
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Didn't they absolutely fail to say anything about how Archipelago presents colonialism? Or am I forgetting something? They said a lot about it. Go check out the review again.
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Feb 26, 2015 00:10
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A big blindspot of our goony cabal is the cost of games, too. And/or availability on a phone. Star Realms doesn't HAVE to be that good if it costs $10 and nearly every COREDORKLORD got it for basically free in the Humble Bundle. I know so many people at work who have played a shitload of Ascension on their phones but might not even be familiar with Dominion.
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Feb 26, 2015 00:11
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Lord Frisk posted:Hey guys, somebody should make a thread for playing board games online. Gather the master list of playable games with links in one convenient location. Sounds good. make sure to include the 7 wonders thing on BSW, I am always down for that poo poo. I cannot wait for the iPad app so I can start really getting lots of playtime of the expansions.
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Feb 26, 2015 00:11
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Didn't they absolutely fail to say anything about how Archipelago presents colonialism? Or am I forgetting something? No, they just didn't dwell on the point. They explicitly said that the game glosses over the whole thing and includes some very… ehm… colourful representations, let's say, of historical views in its mechanics, but also said that this critique isn't something they wanted to get in the way of their game review. They also gave it some backhanded comments in one of their combo-reviews. I seem to recall they went into some deeper discussion on the topic in one of their podcasts (along with games such as Underground Railroad and Lewis & Clark).
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Feb 26, 2015 00:13
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Imagined posted:Often hardcore board game fans express bewilderment at how popular some of the deck builders that aren't Dominion are, even though by most objective measures, they're not as solid, mechanically. Dominion is so not about the theme it's funny. It's a game about playing a good game, the theme is basically immaterial. If what you want is theme, Dominion is not for you. Though, even then, it has its moments. My favourite is Torturer/Minion - you can discard a whole mob of minions one by one to the torturer, as long as you have one of them left, he can go fetch a whole bunch of his friends to help out. I'm not sure how re-theming it would help, to be honest. It would still be a very mechanics-heavy game with very little interaction with the theme, whatever that theme might be, just with different artwork and card names. If your dislike of it is shallow enough that slapping pictures of kirk on it would help you to like it... Why not play it and imagine that the pictures are pictures of kirk? Or cut out some pictures of kirk and put them on the cards?
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Feb 26, 2015 00:14
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The only deckbuilder I genuinely like and actually own is Legendary Encounters because I find Dominion kind of boring and repetitive. Dominion is overall still a better game than Legendary Encounters and has a much better informed grasp of mechanisms and their effect on how the game develops and plays out. I think I'm just not a fan overall of deck building as a mechanism.
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Feb 26, 2015 00:15
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Blamestorm posted:They said a lot about it. Go check out the review again. Ok, I will. Thanks everybody.
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Feb 26, 2015 00:15
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The topic came up a week or so ago about how much more persuasive and entertaining attractive people are on camera when it comes to talking about games, and I think we sorta need to swallow our pride and accept that not everyone who has good thoughts about board games is an Adonis with a decade of public speaking practice*. It's easy to say "then just write it," but people really like listening to podcasts or watching youtube videos. Not to say that looking like a dweeb or having a lisp suddenly makes you a brilliant analyst, but I know that I'm personally guilty of feeling vicariously embarrassed when I watch certain people talk about game design when I absolutely wouldn't if Quinns was saying the exact same thing verbatim. *I mean I am, of course. But you know, those other people
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Feb 26, 2015 00:16
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I'm a bit uncomfortable describing games as a form of media. For example, how is an abstract game like Hive analogous to a film or book in terms of artistic communication? What about tic tac toe? What differentiates a dexterity board game from a sport like lawn bowls? As a social experience do some games have more in common with team sports than film? How often do you get sport 'criticism' as opposed to commentary and how useful is it? Video games to my mind are often quite different in that they communicate a narrative through characters, storytelling and artistic content usually far more explicitly and with much more implicit social, artistic and cultural signalling than most board games?
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Feb 26, 2015 00:17
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I agree that most (all?) games are closer to sports than literature, but sports also are pretty immutable. Like, people have written lots of loving words about how to make Baseball a more interesting game (and not just for spectators, but for players through rule interactions) but that poo poo will not change in any meaningful way. Occasionally you'll get some experimentation like Korean basketball rules, sure, but that's very rare and if you try that poo poo in your pickup game, well, lol. Board game design absolutely will continue to change and improve, and criticism - in theory, at least - will help that along. e: I'd also say that it's a bit suspect to bring up abstract games like Hive as incapable of telling a story while simultaneously ignoring amazing video games like Super Hexagon that are equally abstract, or board games which can tell a story through social or other mechanics. Maybe those abstract video games aren't the ones that are getting AAA support or covers of magazines or Very Serious Articles written about them, but poo poo neither is any modern abstract game and Chess only does because of its pedigree. Countblanc fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Feb 26, 2015 |
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Feb 26, 2015 00:21
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thespaceinvader posted:Did anyone else notice that there's a free online version of Dungeon lords apparently, with (rudimentary) AIs. 
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Feb 26, 2015 00:26
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What's a sport? What's not? How is it different from a game? 
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Feb 26, 2015 00:34
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Sports are the things that make you look sexy instead of nerdy and also probably ruin your body by your late 30s. If your activity isn't making you a hunk/babe it's a game.
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Feb 26, 2015 00:36
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Countblanc posted:Sports are the things that make you look sexy instead of nerdy and also probably ruin your body by your late 30s. If your activity isn't making you a hunk/babe it's a game. With some of the people I see at game get togethers I would argue ruined bodies by late 30s can be leveled at board games too 
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Feb 26, 2015 00:40
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thespaceinvader posted:Did anyone else notice that there's a free online version of Dungeon lords apparently, with (rudimentary) AIs. Yeah, I play this with a friend sometimes. It's decent for getting your head around the game but has a couple of bugs (most notably sniping a paladin won't let you fight him if you'd already killed your other adventurers beforehand!) and event cards aren't implemented yet. As you play it you'll find the AI is quite predictable in certain aspects unfortunately, they were only coded with one general strategy. The developer has been quiet on BGG lately but said they might continue improving it. Another poster hinted that they'd heard a website was working on an implementation - hopefully that means BGA is doing Dungeon Lords but that's pure speculation.. Countblanc posted:What do you think a game critic, versus a reviewer, would look like? What level of expertise or pedigree is important to bridge that gap? I agree with you, we need those voices, but I'm not really sure what that entails. I feel like it's one of those "you know it when you see it" affairs, like when someone clearly practiced at a particular game that benefits from repeated plays starts talking about the positive and negative design elements, but I think that, much like more matured media criticisms, you can also work towards that instead of just being born with it or whatever. I like to use Paul from SU&SD as an example because he's basically the Very Serious Person of board game reviews where he does an excellent job sounding like all of his opinions are grounded in whatever you'd call board game science, but then he randomly starts waxing nostalgic for D&D 3e as "Real D&D," and that sort of Seriousness is very appealing and I don't really know how to get critics to move past that or for audiences to recognize it. I like the guy who writes Tao of Gaming, Brian Bankler. For example his review of Agricola and his posts about paths to victory in Le Havre and other games. I think the key here is some ability to talk about the underlying mechanics and theory of game design, which requires not just experience with a broad range of games but the willingness to engage with them critically. It's ok, and probably important, to also talk about how a game feels but if that's all you can do then you aren't going to be a good reviewer. It's the how and why, not just the what, that people like Vasel and SUSD are missing so often. Countblanc posted:The topic came up a week or so ago about how much more persuasive and entertaining attractive people are on camera when it comes to talking about games, and I think we sorta need to swallow our pride and accept that not everyone who has good thoughts about board games is an Adonis with a decade of public speaking practice On the other hand, The Dice Tower Bubble-T fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Feb 26, 2015 |
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Feb 26, 2015 00:54
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Countblanc posted:I agree that most (all?) games are closer to sports than literature, but sports also are pretty immutable. Like, people have written lots of loving words about how to make Baseball a more interesting game (and not just for spectators, but for players through rule interactions) but that poo poo will not change in any meaningful way. Occasionally you'll get some experimentation like Korean basketball rules, sure, but that's very rare and if you try that poo poo in your pickup game, well, lol. Board game design absolutely will continue to change and improve, and criticism - in theory, at least - will help that along. I think I was not so much speaking against board game criticism as making the point that I don't think it's a kind of criticism that is very comparable to those of forms of 'media' such as film and literature. It should be fundamentally oriented around the provision of the best social experience through game mechanics in most cases, rather than criticising it as a form of media or art.
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Feb 26, 2015 00:54
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thespaceinvader posted:Dominion is so not about the theme it's funny. It's a game about playing a good game, the theme is basically immaterial. If what you want is theme, Dominion is not for you. Though, even then, it has its moments. My favourite is Torturer/Minion - you can discard a whole mob of minions one by one to the torturer, as long as you have one of them left, he can go fetch a whole bunch of his friends to help out. I'll admit that my point of view is shallow. Still how I feel, though. I look at the box and $40 doesn't burn a hole in my pocket. I'm guessing a gently caress of a lot of people feel the same way, or there wouldn't be so many clones of it. There are many types of gamer. I got my start in tabletop games through roleplaying, and that's still how I have the most fun. Mathematically tight mechanics don't excite me. Getting into a role excites me. If I can get a balance of both, even better. That's why I like Forbidden Desert, and Wiz-War, and Netrunner, and Space Hulk, and Battlestar Galactica. Imagined fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Feb 26, 2015 |
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Feb 26, 2015 01:13
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Countblanc posted:Ok, that makes sense. Also I reread my post that you quoted and meant to say "plenty of board games aren't Caylus," in case that wasn't obvious. Whoops. So, my academic background here is in theatre, specifically as a theatre educator. (I perform now, and don't teach, which is probably why I'm getting the urge to poo poo out huge blocks of text on board games.) There's a lot of study that goes into a theatrical text on a the side of performers and everyone else involved in a production. You're right that one of the stated goals of critics is to influence performers - but pretty much any "content creator" on the side of theater with a creative say is likely reading a shitload of texts about whatever production they're doing. It's not just a case of "actors doing homework" it's directors reading old criticism, lighting designers, set designers, prop designers, costume, etc. These people are actually fairly reliant upon criticisms of previous productions as ways to jumpstart their understanding of anything they're doing. Because you can't just read The Lion King if you're doing the stage adaptation of The Lion King. You probably also have to read Hamlet, Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead, some of Shakespeare's other works, rewatch Sleeping Beauty, etc. Critics become immensely useful here because what they've written on Hamlet or Rosencrantz & Guildenstern or w/e likely has a point of view that talks about how these things interrelate, or at least pokes at certain ways of viewing a production that can give another production of The Lion King some additional "heft." So there's content creators. But I (and many of my friends) also listen to critiques about stuff that isn't theater. A good example is Slate's series of podcasts about shows like Better Call Saul. That's an analysis that can highlight interesting facets of a TV show and examine it critically without delving too deeply and runs at about 20 minutes. They have a pretty hefty following and they wind up helping everyone, content creators and simple appreciators alike, to understand the medium and maybe pinpoint why they like the things they like. But, there's also people like, say John Green. Or Extra Credits. These people talk about some things (literature, video games) in an accessible, understandable way. They're not going to delve into an arcane examination of ludological theory, but they will talk at length about accessible things and have huge followings. There's room for games criticism to talk about things that will help you have a good with your friends, to talk about what cultural influences on a work, and to talk about how a game works under the hood. I think what needs to be collected are ways of looking at and examining a game that someone is playing. Having a vocabulary for the kind of thing a game is and does and why it does those things well or poorly would make a huge amount of difference. Dead of Winter is an excellent game for showcasing what happens when a designer wants to do something ('create a cinematic experience') without having any real idea what that would mean in terms of gameplay. We know that the color red conveys one set of moods to the audience, but we don't as fine-tuned an understanding of how worker-placement makes someone feel. Impermanent fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Feb 26, 2015 |
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Feb 26, 2015 01:27
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That was a really interesting post, thanks. Do you think those voices exist at all in board games currently? Also, have you ever heard people within the industry talk about criticism and the need for it? Man, now that I say that, what even is "the industry" for board games - Games aren't made by big teams with notable money backing them, and indie designers aren't really personalities in the way indie video game people often are. Does board gaming even have a voice beyond lukewarm reviewers? For the sake of discussion here I'm going to not include TCGs because I think the audience and design goals aren't really the same as what this thread tends to look at.
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Feb 26, 2015 01:40
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Imagined posted:I'll admit that my point of view is shallow. Still how I feel, though. I look at the box and $40 doesn't burn a hole in my pocket. I'm guessing a gently caress of a lot of people feel the same way, or there wouldn't be so many clones of it. I'm not sure how this follows. It's just as reasonable to suggest that Dominion must be super popular since everyone's trying to get a piece of the deckbuilder pie for themselves. Just because a bunch of people are playing follow the leader doesn't necessarily imply that the market they're aiming for exists. There was a massive glut of CCGs following Magic: the Gathering's early days and now there's Magic and...what else? L5R maybe? Is that still around?
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Feb 26, 2015 01:42
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Dominion should have had spaceships and lightsabers on the box art.
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Feb 26, 2015 02:05
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Kai Tave posted:There was a massive glut of CCGs following Magic: the Gathering's early days and now there's Magic and...what else? L5R maybe? Is that still around? There's Anime the CCG.
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Feb 26, 2015 02:08
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The DBZ TCG also recently came back and supposedly did quite well for the company, financially speaking.
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Feb 26, 2015 02:11
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It could always be worse, we could have only video game designers for our critics. http://keithburgun.net/why-eurogames-are-inherently-single-player-games/ quote:Playing these games single-player is vastly better than multiplayer because “other players” don’t add anything to the experience. If there must be bots, I want them to be as predictable as possible so that I can factor their actions into my machine-building.
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Feb 26, 2015 02:15
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^^^Cookie Clicker, the ultimate Eurogame.unpronounceable posted:There's Anime the CCG. Holy poo poo, someone remade Ani-Mayhem. I should be more surprised by this but I'm not. Kai Tave fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Feb 26, 2015 |
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Feb 26, 2015 02:20
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Weiss Shwarz isnt actually like Ani-mayhem at all
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Feb 26, 2015 02:23
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Well if it functions without an extensive errata document that's about four times as long as the game rules themselves it's already off to a good start.
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Feb 26, 2015 02:25
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Countblanc posted:Weiss Shwarz isnt actually like Ani-mayhem at all i read the title as "Weeb Warz" the first time due to the german ss and I refuse to change this mental association
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Feb 26, 2015 02:27
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Kai Tave posted:Well if it functions without an extensive errata document that's about four times as long as the game rules themselves it's already off to a good start. It's pretty fun and probably the best/consumer friendly sales model a TCG could ever realistically have. It isn't terribly deep and most of the archetypes aren't that different, but it's really satisfying to play and goes a lot faster than most TCGs. I think the errata page is pretty small, the only ones I can think of are a handful of mistranslations from the japanese version but I might be wrong.
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Feb 26, 2015 02:29
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L5R is actually quite improved lately especially the draft format. With the way cards power work you can make pretty good decks with starters and the stuff you get at drafts. I almost hope the game doesn't go ECG because having a not magic game to draft is good.
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Feb 26, 2015 02:48
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Bubble-T posted:It could always be worse, we could have only video game designers for our critics. I mean, I know that 100 Rogues is kind of a joke on SA and I generally don't agree with the guy's point, BUTTTTTTTTtttt............ quote:However, there’s something in between “completely in each other’s face constantly”-direct (as is the case in Street Fighter) and “almost never interacting at all“. quote:Social Fun? This is pretty much how I feel about Agricola and I only ever really play the iOS version anymore. If his only exposure to euros is Agricola then I can kind of understand where he's coming from. But I acknowledge that I'm an outsider in that my group hates Agricola (in-person) for some reason. It really feels like getting together to quietly work on a math exam. Sometimes I'm in the mood to do that on my iPad while at an airport or something, though. fozzy fosbourne fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Feb 26, 2015 |
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Feb 26, 2015 02:51
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Agricola's solo mode is an actual dressed up optimization problem (which is what he seems to want) that stops being interesting after a handful of games and the AI isn't competitive. If you don't like Agricola then that's fine of course - I don't think it's the greatest game either. I don't understand why you'd play it on the iPad though, even less why you'd play the solo mode, let alone thinking it was somehow a better game. I think it's a questionable theory when applied to just Agricola and a joke when extrapolated to 'engine builders' in general, let alone all Euros.
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Feb 26, 2015 02:57
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Countblanc posted:It's pretty fun and probably the best/consumer friendly sales model a TCG could ever realistically have. It isn't terribly deep and most of the archetypes aren't that different, but it's really satisfying to play and goes a lot faster than most TCGs. I think the errata page is pretty small, the only ones I can think of are a handful of mistranslations from the japanese version but I might be wrong.  I am the Weeb Warrior. It's me.
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Feb 26, 2015 03:06
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Yeah, I don't think the generalization to all euros makes sense. It wouldn't surprise me though if this guy hasn't played a ton of euros beyond Agricola and whatever is available on the iPad, which for a while was mostly worker placement, Knizia games, and Puerto Rico. I have never played the solo mode. But I have played the AI and asynchronous multiplayer a bit and found it more interesting there. I think some of it is because I could experiment with lesser consequences. Some of it is not having the pressure of a long uninterrupted block of concentration. Although to be honest, I mostly played the iOS version to practice some of the strategies I researched and determine if I might enjoy the game more if I understood it's strategic depth more thoroughly. I don't play it much anymore, but occasionally on an airport or vacation
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Feb 26, 2015 03:10
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Poison Mushroom posted:Dammit. I saw that Persona is one of the series and now I want to try this game. I have a Junes deck (though I'm missing a few key cards still), Persona is actually interesting because it has the most viable decks out of the different sets but none of them are broken. If you actually want to learn more about it though the "other tcg" thread here talks about it sometimes.
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Feb 26, 2015 03:12
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fozzy fosbourne posted:I have never played the solo mode. But I have played the AI and asynchronous multiplayer a bit and found it more interesting there. I think some of it is because I could experiment with lesser consequences. Some of it is not having the pressure of a long uninterrupted block of concentration. Although to be honest, I mostly played the iOS version to practice some of the strategies I researched and determine if I might enjoy the game more if I understood it's strategic depth more thoroughly. I don't play it much anymore, but occasionally on an airport or vacation Yeah this makes sense, I do the same with iPad apps and stuff like that Dungeon Lords AI linked earlier. It is nice to be able to try stuff out and just restart if it's not working. I think the only solo play app that's held my attention for a long time is Keldon's Race for the Galaxy AI, partly because it's a drat good AI and partly because I like the game so much.
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Feb 26, 2015 03:16
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Bubble-T posted:Yeah this makes sense, I do the same with iPad apps and stuff like that Dungeon Lords AI linked earlier. It is nice to be able to try stuff out and just restart if it's not working. Yeah I was just gonna say, I would kill for a slick Playdek ui for Keldon on my phone. That and dominion are two games where I feel like mining their depths whether it's with other people, complete strangers, or decent AI
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Feb 26, 2015 03:31
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I just picked up Dominant Species, supposed the be the 4th printing, but looking at the box it shows the old brown board on the back rather than the Ice board. I really wanted to get the updated art, can anyone who has the 3rd edition confirm the box just uses the old art?
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