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So my last session of DH2E there was some disagreement about reactions. My reading of the rules is that ranged weapons can only be evaded using Dodge and melee weapons can be evaded using Dodge or Parry. The disagreement is that one of my players believes that if an enemy is adjacent to his character and attacks with, say, a laspistol then his character can evade with Parry if he wants to because by being adjacent to him the NPC has the "engaged in melee" condition. What are peoples' thoughts on this?
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Feb 26, 2015 16:58
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Dr. Tough posted:So my last session of DH2E there was some disagreement about reactions. My reading of the rules is that ranged weapons can only be evaded using Dodge and melee weapons can be evaded using Dodge or Parry. The disagreement is that one of my players believes that if an enemy is adjacent to his character and attacks with, say, a laspistol then his character can evade with Parry if he wants to because by being adjacent to him the NPC has the "engaged in melee" condition. What are peoples' thoughts on this? I run it as if you could reasonably defend yourself by knocking your opponent's weapon away, you can use parry. So, I'd let him parry pistol shots if he's engaged in melee with the thing that's trying to shoot him, because he could bat the gun away or something like that.
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Feb 26, 2015 18:31
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I don't think attacks with pistols in melee are considered ranged attacks. They don't get range bonuses. I'd allow the parry for the same reasons apostateCourier mentioned.
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Feb 26, 2015 18:41
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I agree, I'd allow parrying pistols in melee.
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Feb 26, 2015 20:16
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The people have spoken!
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Feb 26, 2015 20:33
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Pharmaskittle posted:I agree, I'd allow parrying pistols in melee. Which would be fun when someone with a power weapon parries a plasma pistol.
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Feb 26, 2015 20:35
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Gaghskull posted:Which would be fun when someone with a power weapon parries a plasma pistol. 
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Feb 26, 2015 20:59
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Gaghskull posted:Which would be fun when someone with a power weapon parries a plasma pistol.
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Feb 26, 2015 21:46
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So because being the sperg is fun, rules as written: - Parry specifically says 'An acolyte targeted by melee attacks can turn aside these attacks using the Parry skill.'. - Standard Attack says 'The active character makes either one melee attack by making an Ordinary (+10) Weapon Skill Test or one ranged attack by making an Ordinary (+10) Ballistic Skill test.' - Pistols are all in the Ranged section/have a range characteristic/make no mention of melee, so make ranged attacks and thus can't be parried. Rules of cool: Go ahead, though I'd give the weapons armour ratings and have them take damage depending on quality/power field, etc.
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Feb 26, 2015 22:14
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You parry the bolt pistol with your powersword, slicing straight through the ammunition. The wielder's hand vanishes in the ensuing explosion. Immediately resolve 1d10+5 Impact damage on everyone within d10 metres.
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Feb 26, 2015 22:22
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Fellblade posted:So because being the sperg is fun, rules as written: I'm assuming DH2 is quite close to OW when I say that I don't follow. Attacks made in melee, against a person you are also in melee with, are melee attacks. They may come from a club, your hands, or a weapon that can also make ranged attacks, but if they're in melee, they're melee. The big question is what do you do about semi- and full-auto bursts from pistols in melee. Do these count as swift or lightning attacks?
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Feb 26, 2015 23:02
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DOWN JACKET FETISH posted:I'm assuming DH2 is quite close to OW when I say that I don't follow. Attacks made in melee, against a person you are also in melee with, are melee attacks. They may come from a club, your hands, or a weapon that can also make ranged attacks, but if they're in melee, they're melee. The distinction is made in the pistol rules that they can attack 'in close-combat' rather than melee. If you were going full-retard you could say pistols can't be used in melee because it say's close-combat, but then you can't use melee weapons in melee because they also say close-combat. Close-combat doesn't seem to be defined anywhere, but it talks about being in 'melee-combat' and 'in melee' in the disengage section. Semi-auto and Full-auto count as Semi-auto and Full-auto, because they are ranged attack types that can be made in close-combat if using a pistol. Fellblade fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Feb 26, 2015 |
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Feb 26, 2015 23:05
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My opinion is largely the same as Fellblade's. The rules are fairly clear, and honestly I'm not going to begrudge a pistol's user of their least bad option when something gets in their face and they can't bring something bigger to bear against some crazy with a far meaner sword.
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Feb 26, 2015 23:19
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Shooting a pistol while fighting hand to hand with a dude uses the shooting rules, not hand weapon rules.
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Feb 26, 2015 23:21
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Well, if you're shooting it at someone else it does.
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Feb 26, 2015 23:26
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Melee is used in the standard gaming usage to mean any weapon that isn't used at range. If you are firing a gun, you are making a ranged attack, no matter how close or what circumstance it is in. As in the Only War two weapon fighting rules covering use of sword and pistol (emph. mine): quote:If a character with the Two-Weapon Wielder (Melee) and Two Weapon Wielder (Ballistic) Talent is armed with a melee weapon in one hand and a pistol in the other, he may perform a melee Attack Action (either a Standard Attack, Swift Attack, or Lightning Attack) or ranged Attack Action (such as Standard Attack, SemiAuto Burst, or Full-Auto Burst) with one weapon. He may then make a second melee Attack Action or ranged Attack Action with his secondary weapon. Any pistol hits must be against targets in melee. Resolve each attack separately by Testing Weapon Skill for the melee weapon and Ballistic Skill for the pistol.
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Feb 26, 2015 23:56
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Hey all. I took a years-long break from this game to focus on school and life and stuff and now I have more free time and money and I'm interested in diving back in. I have a question. So, I have some Imperial Guard, Ork, and Chaos stuff. I like all three armies thematically. My question is... which one is the cheapest to get into? Last I played troop transports were very important and I don't think I can afford a bunch of guardsman in chimeras (I played a gunline... is that viable right now?) or orks in trukks. Chaos I could do: one or two rhinos isn't a huge investment. I see a lot of new, expensive, and very large models like airships and giant mechs... are these especially mandatory for a competitive list? I mostly play for fun and won't mind playing a sub-par army but I'd like to at least have a bit of a chance to win friendly games without dropping over a hundred bucks on a single model.
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Feb 27, 2015 00:37
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Omar al-Bishie posted:Hey all. I took a years-long break from this game to focus on school and life and stuff and now I have more free time and money and I'm interested in diving back in. I have a question. Unfortunately you're in the thread for filthy roleplayers. The thread for 40K The Wargame is right here.
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Feb 27, 2015 00:40
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WHOOPS MY BAD. Thanks :P
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Feb 27, 2015 00:59
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I'm also on the side that says pistols, and any ranged attacks, may only be dodged, even if in close combat. As others have said, by looking at the rules, it's rather clear that parry is only for melee attacks; which is one of many reasons i find parry a waste compared to dodge, but that's a whole other discussion.
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Feb 27, 2015 14:17
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A lot of people in this thread have not seen the movie Equilibrium.
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Feb 27, 2015 15:45
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Clanpot Shake posted:A lot of people in this thread have not seen the movie Equilibrium. Total bullshit but completely awesome, I agree. The duel at the end is pretty much exactly what I was talking about.
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Feb 27, 2015 16:21
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Werix posted:I'm also on the side that says pistols, and any ranged attacks, may only be dodged, even if in close combat. As others have said, by looking at the rules, it's rather clear that parry is only for melee attacks; which is one of many reasons i find parry a waste compared to dodge, but that's a whole other discussion. Your weapon can give you up to like a +15 on parry checks and there's at least one talent that benefits it (counter attack), while I think dodge has no such advantages. I see your point, but don't think it's quite so one-sided. Also, we have a house rule that you need to be near some semblance of cover to attempt a dodge against most ranged attacks because dodging bullets in the middle of the street is dumb.
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Feb 27, 2015 19:56
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Pharmaskittle posted:Your weapon can give you up to like a +15 on parry checks and there's at least one talent that benefits it (counter attack), while I think dodge has no such advantages. I see your point, but don't think it's quite so one-sided. If you are in the middle of the street and are built for dodging you pretty much just do anime pivots. Edit: I mean clearly some of you don't get that this isn't a tactically realistic setting at all and that you're supposed to be able to do hilarious poo poo. If someone wants to parry bullets and has the points to conceivably do it that's completely loving awesome. Name Change fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Feb 27, 2015 |
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Feb 27, 2015 22:57
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The upsides to parry compared to dodge are that it's easier to find sources of bonuses (your basic Balanced weapon is a +10 to parry right there) and also that your ability to parry naturally rises along with your ability to attack well, while dodge is a separate factor altogether and thus requires its own greater investiture in XP.
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Feb 27, 2015 23:21
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My GM buddy and our party had it out over the ranged-weapons-in-melee thing after we had a hairy combat encounter as a ranged-specced party versus crazy little melee critters in a cramped Hive. Glad to see you've come to some of the same conclusions. Our houserule is currently this: a successful Parry completely nullifies all the shots of a ranged attack (Where dodge only lets you dodge a number of hits based on DoS, as normal). Imagine it as the other guy grabbing your weapon and pointing it away when you pull the trigger.
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Feb 27, 2015 23:47
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Get fully trained in parry, get an Eldar powersword, parry at +50 and chump dudes.
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Feb 28, 2015 00:09
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KlavoHunter posted:Our houserule is currently this: a successful Parry completely nullifies all the shots of a ranged attack (Where dodge only lets you dodge a number of hits based on DoS, as normal). Imagine it as the other guy grabbing your weapon and pointing it away when you pull the trigger. But then imagine it as the other guy doing it somewhat badly and only being partially successful in his attempt, so he still gets shot twice instead of three times. Seriously, why would you make that particular change? Melee combat switched over to being DoS based for a reason, I'm not sure why you'd suddenly decide this particular area of combat resolution is improved by a switch to the defender making a binary pass/fail test that the attacker can't influence. LGD fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Feb 28, 2015 |
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Feb 28, 2015 00:10
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KlavoHunter posted:Our houserule is currently this: a successful Parry completely nullifies all the shots of a ranged attack (Where dodge only lets you dodge a number of hits based on DoS, as normal). Imagine it as the other guy grabbing your weapon and pointing it away when you pull the trigger. Yeah I'm in favour of parrying pistol melee attacks instead of "this melee is actually a shooting match" but this is a little too far the other way. I would personally keep it as one DoS on the parry nullifies one hit.
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Feb 28, 2015 00:23
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I am not convinced in any way that the DH line is particularly well balanced in any of its iterations anyway. Like "Oh well actually you can boost your parry to insane levels quite easily" doesn't strike me as an intentional design choice given what else goes on in the system.
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Feb 28, 2015 00:29
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Yeah, parry is always inferior to dodge except for things like in blackcrusade where if you're a khornate/nurgle parry is cheap and dodge is super expensive. That still doesn't mean that every single pc should not take at least dodge+0. There are no circumstances where parry works and dodge doesn't, but plenty of the opposite!
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Feb 28, 2015 10:53
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:I am not convinced in any way that the DH line is particularly well balanced in any of its iterations anyway. Like "Oh well actually you can boost your parry to insane levels quite easily" doesn't strike me as an intentional design choice given what else goes on in the system. It isn't. After being away from it for a couple weeks I start to dread coming back to this system and its crazy bad rocket tag and evasion heavy design. I would say the high evasion chances are intentional, though, once they realized their damage math is such that just about every other defensive tactic is useless or near useless.
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Feb 28, 2015 16:41
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LuiCypher posted:Also, I want to create a Deathwatch campaign sometime in the near future. The working title is: The Last Crusade of the Marines Errant. The overall objective will be to locate the flagship of the Red Corsairs (and consequently Huron Blackheart) and sink it. Naturally this is taking place sometime after the Fall of Vilamus, when the Marines Errant have confronted their chapter's sudden mortality and decided that the best way to go out is to take their hated enemy down with them. You can count me in as a player and oversystem idea man. I want to be Doctor Eatface (Carcarodons Apothecary).
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Feb 28, 2015 19:00
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The system: Rogue Trader Apocalypse World The pitch: Last, Best Hope For Peace The Ethereals of the Tau have come to a conclusion: The humans are so devoted to their Emperor that there will be no peace, ever, unless it comes from him directly. So they're sending a diplomatic mission to Terra! United under the command of the greatest Water Caste diplomat in all of Tau space, equipped with a brand new high-tech Tau stealth ship, an experimental Warp Drive and a diverse multiracial crew, the Tau have officially launched the greatest diplomatic mission of all time. The crew will travel from world to world, building positive relations with the people as they pass, boldly explore the frontiers of known space, find the location of Terra and then petition the Emperor directly with a peace treaty. The Tau have armed and equipped this mission well because they believe that humanity's Empire has no less than one hundred planets under its control! Hopefully the Emperor is a reasonable man. The PCs: The last Squat in the universe, a Kroot Shaper, a Tau diplomat, and a human Missionary who has earnestly synthesised the Greater Good with the Imperial Faith. The Theme: The slow destruction of naivety. It's like Star Trek crossed with Apocalypse Now. So does anyone have any ideas for planets for them to visit? Early game they're passing through worlds on the border of Tau space where things seem reasonable but as time goes on things are going to get more and more insanely 40K. Notably their mission is to make as many friends as possible which is a little different from the Rogue Trader standard. Thanqol fucked around with this message at 09:46 on Mar 2, 2015 |
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Mar 2, 2015 07:16
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Me and some friends was running the demo to Deathwatch and we noticed that devastator was massively outperforming the assault marine in damage. Sure we did not follow the errata but even if we had there is no way the melee would be able to keep up with the "another hit for every degree of success" that the devastator was pumping out (when he was not jamming his gun). And what we could see in the rulebook the melee don't get any bonus from getting more degrees of success except for the "gives higher minimum damage on the roll" Do the melee ever catch up with talents they get later or is range simply better when it comes to dealing damage in Deathwatch?
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Mar 2, 2015 09:35
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Lightning Assault and Swift Attack, basically melee auto and melee semi-auto. They are talents, and should be pretty easy to get for an assault marine (as a far as I know, haven't played Deathwatch).
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Mar 2, 2015 10:07
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Yea i gave him the swift attack talent that assault marines should start with but for some reason the one in the demo does not have it. But even with that its only one extra attack without bonuses when the devastator get +20 from the full auto attack, (that more or less means 2 extra attacks). It just feels weird that melee feels so lackluster in a setting that usually have a lot of big angry people hitting each other over the head. Sure i could fix it with some house rules, but it would be good to know if its needed if melee get stronger later.
Shadiiw fucked around with this message at 11:11 on Mar 2, 2015 |
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Mar 2, 2015 10:38
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Oh wait right Deathwatch follows the old rules, before they changed the rules for multiple attacks. There is a very good reason why the old combat system was changed eventually, and honestly if I were you I'd just use the combat rules from one of the newer versions of 40k rpgs, since they make the combat rules make some actual sense (like changing the bonuses for shooting to +10 single, +0 semi-auto, -10 full auto, and making swift attack and lightning attack into melee versions of semi-auto and full auto).
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Mar 2, 2015 11:02
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Yea after looking at the rules in only war I will definitely start to use the rules from that. It makes a lot more sense. And thanks for the help!
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Mar 2, 2015 12:47
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Thanqol posted:So does anyone have any ideas for planets for them to visit? Early game they're passing through worlds on the border of Tau space where things seem reasonable but as time goes on things are going to get more and more insanely 40K. Notably their mission is to make as many friends as possible which is a little different from the Rogue Trader standard. At some point they will need to discover a hellish world where the people are forced to slave away at hard labour, 18 hours a day with minimal food, watched over by heavily armed guards with huge guns who execute anyone who steps the smallest bit out of line. Then they can discover they were sent there for littering. edit - Because that's basically an episode of Star Trek already
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Mar 2, 2015 15:27
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