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Well, I mean, we do see significant changes in ships through the OT. The initial assault on the Death Star is done by Y-Wings and X-wings, with the theory being that good pilots in either can beat the poorly equipped swarms of Tie Fighters. As it turns out, the Y-Wings end up being fairly terrible, but the X-wings perform, so more are made. But the empire notes how well Vader's modified Tie Fighter did against the X-wings. The next time we see a large space combat fight, it's on Endor, where the Empire has mass produced Tie Interceptors based on the original modified Tie Design. They match well against the X-wings but do worse against A-wings which are basically faster Tie Interceptors with shields. They're great but they're less good against your massed ordinary Tie Fighters. I /think/ we also see B-wings on Endor as well, which exist as the Rebellion's answer to Star Destroyers, since they can't effectively do large ship combat with the Empire, they instead load up an X-wing style model with a tonne of shields and swarms of proton torpedoes so they can hit shield generators. Note: All of this knowledge comes from playing Endor on RS II way too much as a kid.
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Feb 23, 2015 16:46
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I do love how the EU has the E-Wing trumped up to be an X-Wing replacement and it turns out to be a massively over-engineered steaming turd of a ship and they keep using the X-Wings anyway. Just like real life! 
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Feb 23, 2015 17:47
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Flagrant Abuse posted:I don't think it did look like it was, actually. They look pretty noticeably different in appearance, such as the much larger engine section on the one in ROTS. You can clearly tell that they're in the same product line, though. Yeah, I was hoping to see Dreadnaughts, Victory Star Destroyers and AT-PTs in the prequels as well. Of course, this is to be expected in that we can't really expect the filmmakers to pay much attention to the movie tie in stuff, especially when Star Wars has so much of it and most of it isn't very good. I am totally cool with them dumping the EU because it had to be done, but still, it would be neat if Grand Admiral Thrawn or Ysanne Isard had a small cameo or mention in the new movie. I'm pretty sure we're all aware that Grand Admiral Thrawn and Mara Jade will be coming back in some shape or form given how popular they are as characters. They might not show up in the movies, and Mara Jade might not marry Luke, but I'm pretty darn sure these guys will show up in something in the future whether it be a book or comic.
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Feb 23, 2015 19:03
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Grand Admiral Thrawn is going to be a short-order cook that works in a 1950s diner in Coreilla, Mara Jade will be some swift talking junk-yard salesmen
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Feb 23, 2015 21:07
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Maybe eventually in the books, but I get the feeling that Marvel (at least currently) has a very territorial mindset where they're not going to bring back anything from the old EU, and especially not the Dark Horse run, and are instead going to be focusing on making their own stamp (which will probably focus on stories that just rehash OT cliches and references). I mean, pretty much every current Marvel writer on a Star Wars title has talked in interviews about how much they loved the original Marvel Star Wars comics but never even read the Dark Horse stuff, which seems pretty suspect.
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Feb 23, 2015 21:44
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It did stick out to me that a lot of the announcements about the new Marvel books (which I've liked so far, make no mistake) all seemed to big up how they're filling in the gaps between the movies as though it's something nobody's ever done before (or at least hadn't been done since the classic Marvel run), when that's what Dark Horse had been doing for years by that point. I agree, though, that it seems a bit like Dark Horse's run might have become a bit of a red-headed stepchild for the EU, but I think that was slightly true even when it was ongoing; I don't think it ever got anywhere near the attention that any of the other EU stuff. Then again, like a lot of the EU, it had a few weak links toward the end. Sure, there were some triumphs - the various Darth Vader miniseries, the Qui-Gon centred Jedi Apprentice prequel series, Agent of the Empire, Legacy Vol. 2 - but they also had series I don't think anybody was especially interested in in the first place (Invasion), didn't live up to the hype (The Star Wars), were a bit past their prime (Knights of the Old Republic after Zayne unravels the conspiracy and Haazen is beaten) or weren't bad, but were just sort of there (Dawn of the Jedi, Knight Errant).
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Feb 23, 2015 22:21
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Chairman Capone posted:Maybe eventually in the books, but I get the feeling that Marvel (at least currently) has a very territorial mindset where they're not going to bring back anything from the old EU, and especially not the Dark Horse run, and are instead going to be focusing on making their own stamp (which will probably focus on stories that just rehash OT cliches and references). Ah, never heard about that. Hopefully they tread some new ground rather than just rehash the movies, because Star Wars tends to do that. Granted, most of the Dark Horse stuff I've read is the old, old stuff. Like Dark Empire, the X-Wing comics, the Thrawn adaptation, Droids, Shadows of the Empire and so on. I haven't read very much of Republic\Empire\Rebellion\Legacy at all. The only recent stuff I've read were the various Darth Vader books and they were a little hit or miss, but the one with the Clone Trooper stands out as being really good. (Cry of Shadows, I think?) Really the only EU stuff I'd like to see make it back into the new continuity are elements from the Thrawn books, X-Wing books and Shadows of the Empire. And maybe some of the games like Dark Forces and TIE Fighter. The rest I could really just care less about. I liked the first two issues of Star Wars even though the rest of the thread didn't. Issue #1 of Darth Vader was pretty weak, though. Vader loving around with Jabba is a pretty unimpressive start. The issue pretty much rehashed the opening to ROTJ but switched Luke for Vader. Very lame.
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Feb 23, 2015 22:27
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Almost all of Dark Horse's ancient EU stuff is fun. It's very pulpy and fantasy inspired. I really hope VII doesn't trod on it too badly. edit; Actually, isn't Exar Kun or Ulic Qel-Droma in the Clone Wars series as a force ghost or something?
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Feb 23, 2015 23:06
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Big Mean Jerk posted:edit; Actually, isn't Exar Kun or Ulic Qel-Droma in the Clone Wars series as a force ghost or something? Ulic's ghost was in the Clone Wars game that came out for Xbox and PS2 after AOTC; playing as Anakin, you visit his tomb on Rhen Var to learn how to defeat the Dark Reaper. Don't remember if he was in the cartoon or not. I think if TOTJ has a major weakness, it's one it shares with Dark Empire, namely that it crams far too much story into far too little space. For me, the only one that really has the room it needs to breathe is "Redemption" (which is also the best one).
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Feb 23, 2015 23:40
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Wheat Loaf posted:didn't live up to the hype (The Star Wars), At least in terms of raw sales, I actually think this did pretty good. None of the Dark Horse Star Wars stuff sold amazing but I think this sold 30K or so per issue. The Matt Wood Star Wars and Legacy Vol. 1 are the only other recent series that sold anywhere near as high as it (in its heyday I think Legacy Vol. 1 was regularly Dark Horse's second best seller after Buffy). Gammatron 64 posted:I liked the first two issues of Star Wars even though the rest of the thread didn't. Issue #1 of Darth Vader was pretty weak, though. Vader loving around with Jabba is a pretty unimpressive start. The issue pretty much rehashed the opening to ROTJ but switched Luke for Vader. Very lame. This is pretty much what I'm expecting a lot of from Marvel, at least until episode 7 comes out (and probably even then, just with Episode 7 references instead of OT ones). I did think it pretty telling that (even if no one said it) two of Marvel's opening series, the Star Wars and Darth Vader titles, are basically just spiritual continuations of the Dark Horse Star Wars and Darth Vader series.
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Feb 24, 2015 00:13
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Yorkshire Tea posted:Well, I mean, we do see significant changes in ships through the OT. B-Wings were deployed at Endor yes. The thing about the Empire and Rebel mindsets is different though. The common logic that I've seen from the books was that the Empire's resource lead meant they could get away with creating expendable ships on short ranges. In the Imperial mindset each star destroyer was basically an aircraft carrier of today's military. The Rebels however didn't have the resources or manpower to create an effective capital fleet, so they instead relied on their starfighter wings to pick up the slack. Thus you have the X and Y wings (initially) designed to be all around fighters with internal hyperdrives and life support systems. On top of that they had (most importantly) shields that prevented ties from being able to shred them like crazy. Meaning that the Rebel pilot cadre became far more experienced than their imperial opponents. However, a TIE could be INCREDIBLY dangerous in the right hands (Baron Soontir Fel and the 181st) but very few pilots reached that point of skill. As the war wore on, the Empire began a few projects to try to counter the Rebel starfighter dominence. The two most Successful were teh Advanced and Defender lines. The Advanced was basically and upgraded version of the ship that Vader used during the deathstar. Shields and a hyperdrive being standard. The Defender was in a class on it's own with those same upgrades, but a higher base power generation, ion cannons, and a tractor emitter as standard loadout. The Advanced would go on to become mass produced in the fight between Thrawn and Zaarin (which took place just before Endor) and the Defender was seen as to costly to be mass produced. The empire had two other major starfighters that were used during this period. The Assault Gunboat, which was mainly recon and capture missions in deep space (it was between an Xwing and Ywing in performance and had Ioncannons, shields and a hyperdrive) and the Missileboat. The Missileboat was basically a pile of explosives strapped to a hyperdrive. It had one blaster but it could carry up to 120 concussion missiles (or 60 and a smaller number of other warheads) and had shields, a tractor, and a hyperdrive. The other major feature of that particular fighter was the SLAM system, which drained the main cannons energy directly into the engines creating a temporary speed boost. >.> Yes, I loved TIE Fighter back in the day.
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Feb 24, 2015 10:56
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As I recall, The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels (the original edition, circa 1996) also had an entry on the Lancer frigate, which was another Imperial attempt to introduce an explicitly anti-starfighter capital ship. They ended up not seeing much use because the Empire's entire military philosophy didn't really have a place for them, and only became important when Thrawn assumed command because a) he needed whatever ships he could get and b) knew how to use them creatively.
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Feb 24, 2015 12:05
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Ensign_Ricky posted:Jizz Wailing Project Update:  EDIT: The only thing from the EU that I hope to see in the new films is the TIE Defender, just because I think it's a really cool ship. SirPhoebos fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Feb 24, 2015 |
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Feb 24, 2015 16:17
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SirPhoebos posted:
Eh, I always thought the Defender was cheating. It's completely anathema to Imperial philosophy: mass-produced and cheap fighter swarms. And despite what TIE Fighter would have you believe, Advanceds and Defenders weren't the next step up from TIE Fighters. They were interesting test beds to see if a pilot's life was really worth the added expense (it wasn't). The TIE Interceptor was the real advance. Still cheap enough to mass produce, more maneuverable and faster than a TIE Fighter and it packed four laser cannons. It was an answer to the A-Wing and could wreck and X-Wing easily. Plus it could be used in a swarm effectively as you see at Endor.
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Feb 24, 2015 17:12
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I always quite liked the concept that the justification for the empire's poor fighters was that admirals and the rest of the senior military establishment didn't want to lose the prestige of their capital ships and see resources transferred to fighter production. After all, if a squadron of fighters with hyper drives is able to carry out operations that previously required a star destroyer, you end up with a lot fewer jobs for the boys and promotion opportunities. This sort inter service (or even intra service) rivalry and institutional inertia struck a chord with me as a kid, and I still think it was one of the better ideas in the series.
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Feb 24, 2015 17:41
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Wheat Loaf posted:I think if TOTJ has a major weakness, it's one it shares with Dark Empire, namely that it crams far too much story into far too little space. For me, the only one that really has the room it needs to breathe is "Redemption" (which is also the best one). "You need to read several different books to understand the story you wanted to read" is a damning indictment of the story - a work should stand or fall on its own. If they had been given more leeway in developing it to put everything in, or changed the media it was released in it would have been stronger.
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Feb 24, 2015 19:06
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I thought overall that the TIE fighter was an extremely successful space superiority system. Cheap, modular and able to be deployed to planetside bases or capital ships in numbers exceeding more traditional fighter squadrons. It made more sense for the rebels to try to conserve their trained pilots, many of whom had originally served with the Imperial Starfighter Corps anyhow. The Rebel Alliance still lost a lot of its pilots and machines, and the lack of supplies or secure maintenance facilities was probably just as great a factor in them choosing hyperspace-capable snubfighters.. The rebels need to conduct hit and run strikes for most of the Galactic Civil War made the Y-wings and X-wings good mainstays, while the TIEs were better suited for the Imperials' need to garrison a vast number of systems as well as provide fighter wings for starships. Once the Rebel Alliance had killed off vast numbers of TIE pilots in the battles later on in the Civil War, not to mention seizing many of the larger research and production centers of the Inner Rim and Core, the Imperials were unable to keep up and their outdated fighters became a liability. One thing I've found interesting about both the films and EU though, is the implication that Palpatine may have had access to various ancient Sith weapons designs, especially starfighters, battle droids and cloaking devices, that he leaked to various factions and corporations during the Clone Wars and Imperial eras.
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Feb 24, 2015 19:12
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What no mention of the Chiss clawcraft? Also just for the looks of it, I loved the ARC-170 starfighter we got in revenge of the sith.
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Feb 25, 2015 06:23
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Darth Freddy posted:What no mention of the Chiss clawcraft? 
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Feb 25, 2015 08:22
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I liked the ARC-170 and some of the organic-looking Separatist ship designs from ROTS, but really disliked the Venator (loved the Acclamator, though) and the TIE-prototype with the folding wings. I really wish ROTS had kept to the Separatists using clearly Rebel-esque ship designs and the Republic using only proto-Imperial designs.
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Feb 25, 2015 15:51
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Chairman Capone posted:I liked the ARC-170 and some of the organic-looking Separatist ship designs from ROTS, but really disliked the Venator (loved the Acclamator, though) and the TIE-prototype with the folding wings. I really wish ROTS had kept to the Separatists using clearly Rebel-esque ship designs and the Republic using only proto-Imperial designs. Would've been nice if the clone army started like "OT Rebels, but with more money" then transitioned to more Empire-like designs. Alas, the war didn't start until the end of the second movie...
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Feb 25, 2015 19:32
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Tobaccrow posted:I think kids and less lore-invested audiences already get tripped up as it is with thinking of the CIS as prequel-Rebellion. "Why are the rebels the bad guys in the prequels? Why do the rebels want to restore The Republic if they were at war with them before?" This bit is at least quasi-"rationalized" by the EU (both new and old) saying that many CIS assets/figures later became part of the Rebellion. I want to say the Rebels had some Trade Federation Lucrehulk-class ships, too.
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Feb 25, 2015 19:46
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I know the Rebels used Separatist ships in the Death Star novel and a few of the Dark Horse Rebellion comics.
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Feb 25, 2015 20:10
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Geonosis has been depicted as an important Rebel world in a few video games and books, too.
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Feb 25, 2015 21:22
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The only, and I mean only benefit of working at a brick and mortar bookstore is that I get to check out books before their Strict on Sale date. 
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Feb 26, 2015 08:21
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Cythereal posted:Geonosis has been depicted as an important Rebel world in a few video games and books, too. I imagine that's just a question of revisiting movie worlds because they're recognisable. I mean, Obi-Wan took Luke to Tatooine because a) it was a backwater overrun by gangsters to the galaxy at large, and b) more specifically, he knew it was somewhere Vader would never, ever go if he could help it. In the years since, it's revisited in every game, it's the site of major battles in both of the main galactic wars, and it's even hinted to be the world where the human race originated. Same deal with Hoth, as a matter of fact.
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Feb 26, 2015 16:41
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Wheat Loaf posted:I imagine that's just a question of revisiting movie worlds because they're recognisable. I mean, Obi-Wan took Luke to Tatooine because a) it was a backwater overrun by gangsters to the galaxy at large, and b) more specifically, he knew it was somewhere Vader would never, ever go if he could help it. In the years since, it's revisited in every game, it's the site of major battles in both of the main galactic wars, and it's even hinted to be the world where the human race originated. Same deal with Hoth, as a matter of fact. True, though Geonosis being a key Rebel world does make sense story-wise. Geonosis was already a hotbed of rebellion against the Galactic Republic and it makes sense that it would remain that way against the Empire. Honestly, that's something I wish Star Wars would go into more heavily: what about people and factions supporting the Rebellion for genuinely selfish, even evil reasons. I enjoyed how in Empire at War: Forces of Corruption, it ends with the galaxy's most powerful crime syndicate propping up the Rebellion and taking on the Empire because the New Republic will be so much easier to corrupt and be easier on crime than the Empire has been. "I've always wanted to own a senator."
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Feb 26, 2015 17:23
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Wheat Loaf posted:I imagine that's just a question of revisiting movie worlds because they're recognisable. This sort of thing is making me worry about the coming Battlefront game by DICE. I'm sort of hoping we see more than just several flavours of OT and prequal planet battlefields.
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Feb 26, 2015 17:30
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Carteret posted:The only, and I mean only benefit of working at a brick and mortar bookstore is that I get to check out books before their Strict on Sale date. My eyes slid by that title three or four times before I realized it wasn't Heir to the Empire. Also, this might be the goofiest looking Luke Skywalker yet. Is he wearing a black polo?  I haven't read a Star Wars book since Darth Plaegius, probably. This any good?
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Feb 26, 2015 17:30
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Luke really looks like he's had enough of these star wars.
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Feb 26, 2015 17:31
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StashAugustine posted:Luke really looks like he's had enough of these star wars. "Jesus christ, okay what the gently caress do I do now? hold the sword thing up while fire and ships and happen behind me? whatever. gently caress, something is in my eyes!"
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Feb 26, 2015 17:35
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Wheat Loaf posted:I imagine that's just a question of revisiting movie worlds because they're recognisable. I mean, Obi-Wan took Luke to Tatooine because a) it was a backwater overrun by gangsters to the galaxy at large, and b) more specifically, he knew it was somewhere Vader would never, ever go if he could help it. It's for this reason that I laughed when almost literally the first thing Marvel does is have Vader go to Tatooine to talk with Jabba. SeanBeansShako posted:This sort of thing is making me worry about the coming Battlefront game by DICE. I'm sort of hoping we see more than just several flavours of OT and prequal planet battlefields. Making Star Wars had a huge collection of Battlefront rumors they posted a few weeks ago from a supposed insider. It mentioned that the majority of the game would be OT movie stuff, with a smaller section of Clone Wars/ROTS battles before that and ending with the opening scene from TFA. http://makingstarwars.net/2015/02/tons-star-wars-battlefront-rumors-links-star-wars-force-awakens/
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Feb 26, 2015 20:46
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Chairman Capone posted:It's for this reason that I laughed when almost literally the first thing Marvel does is have Vader go to Tatooine to talk with Jabba. I'm not sure how many of those bullet points were actual rumors except maybe the Tarkin tidbit.
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Feb 27, 2015 03:08
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Reading A New Dawn, and just met some female stormtroopers. That's pretty cool. Were they allowed before the EU reboot, other than cosplay? Do the outfits look any different? I'm assuming not, since one was referred to as "one with a female voice."
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Feb 28, 2015 22:06
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thrawn527 posted:Reading A New Dawn, and just met some female stormtroopers. That's pretty cool. Were they allowed before the EU reboot, other than cosplay? Do the outfits look any different? I'm assuming not, since one was referred to as "one with a female voice."
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Feb 28, 2015 22:29
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Casimir Radon posted:I guess they were in Legacy but I never had any interest in it. Soldier for the Empire states the Palpatine hates women almost as much as he does aliens. AKA "Lucas used only vaguely British white guys for Imperial extras in the movies, so therefore they're all vaguely British white guys and we have to come up with a reason for that."
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Feb 28, 2015 23:34
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Have any EU materials ever gone so far as to portray the Empire as racist in the sense that it's prejudiced against non-white humans as well?
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Mar 1, 2015 01:15
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thrawn527 posted:Reading A New Dawn, and just met some female stormtroopers. That's pretty cool. Were they allowed before the EU reboot, other than cosplay? Do the outfits look any different? I'm assuming not, since one was referred to as "one with a female voice."
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Mar 1, 2015 01:31
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Wheat Loaf posted:Have any EU materials ever gone so far as to portray the Empire as racist in the sense that it's prejudiced against non-white humans as well? I don't think so, which is why all the outcry over the black stormtrooper in the TFA teaser made no sense to me.
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Mar 1, 2015 06:03
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Wheat Loaf posted:Have any EU materials ever gone so far as to portray the Empire as racist in the sense that it's prejudiced against non-white humans as well? I don't think it's ever been touched upon. Things in Star Wars seem like that Discworld quote; "Racism was not a problem on the Discworld, because — what with trolls and dwarfs and so on — speciesism was more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green." That said, the Rebels have a more observably ethnic diverse cast.
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