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The Lazurus pit is going to be a memory transfer thing and Ollie will get a remember who you are bit.
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Mar 1, 2015 00:26
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STAC Goat posted:I mean, why is this a matter of debate? Thea started regretting turning Malcolm over the very same episode. Oliver was right. In no way was Oliver right in the slightest because no one should feel bad about taking the steps necessary to get out of nigh-abusive situation whether it's with their "parents" or adoptive parents or boyfriends or girlfriends or siblings or whatever. Literally every single other character on the show sees this, and Oliver would be able to see this too, and to help Thea through that, if he wasn't so controlling and such a broken individual who we ultimately find out, oh hey, wasn't even truly acting that way for her benefit but for his own.
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Mar 1, 2015 00:36
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Yeah, this isn't a "beep boop" situation; I think Thea's reasoning and conflicted feelings are genuine and the way her story ended in the ep was great. Ollie's rationale, on the other hand, was originally pretty dumb and I think the show demonstrated that quite clearly. And you have to remember that on top of this Malcolm is the guy who keeps on saying "I can never be held by any jails, I'll just break out, there's no one who can stop me! except the League." Like, Ollie remembers that this dude killed Sara, right Edit: And the whole point I brought it up was that ostensibly Green Arrow was about the little people mattering. Batman's no-kill rule means that he does go out of his way to not kill mooks. Ollie has killed a bunch of people to save Malcolm Merlyn. CharlieFoxtrot fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Mar 1, 2015 |
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Mar 1, 2015 00:39
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BrianWilly posted:I think Thea might regret it less if Ollie supported and guided her through this life-changing decision in a "You made a tough call in an impossible situation, but he wasn't your real father in the slightest, manipulated you through your connection with him, and we're all better off with him gone in the long run" sort of way and didn't immediately start to guilt-trip her in a "ZOMG TEHA HOW COULD YOU??? He was your FATHER!!1 my sister is a MONSTER NOW oh GOD" sort of way. He was doing it for the stated reason, just he was ALSO doing it to salve his own ego. People are complicated and can have multiple motives for their actions.
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Mar 1, 2015 00:44
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You and I clearly simply have different ethics because I don't really see handing someone over to be executed as a "tough call." Many people would call it murder. And Oliver wanted to keep Thea from having to feel the burden of that especially in light of all the murders he's been directly, indirectly, or "not at all but in his head" responsible for as well as Thea's already troubled strife over the whole Sara thing. I mean, I don't want to get too into this because I think its walking uncomfortably towards an actual moral debate about capital punishment which no one wants to get into. But I think the overall point is that its not unreasonable or uncommon for people to feel grief for that sort of thing and the idea that Thea would just spend the rest of her life being ok with handing her biological father (who she lived with for awhile) over to be tortured and killed if Oliver just gives her a little support seems a little unreasonable. And, I mean, Felicity and Diggle clearly at least SEE Oliver's side of this argument. You're treating it like they were 100% against Oliver's take but when he explains this reasoning to them they actually are pretty clearly conflicted about things because they understand his point. But yes, obviously Oliver is also a severely broken person and besides the fact that he's suffering PTSD with this whole Ra's thing which was twisting his motivations he's also got a massive martyr complex and is desperately overprotective of the handful of people he loves who haven't yet died horribly. CharlieFoxtrot posted:Yeah, this isn't a "beep boop" situation; I think Thea's reasoning and conflicted feelings are genuine and the way her story ended in the ep was great. Ollie's rationale, on the other hand, was originally pretty dumb and I think the show demonstrated that quite clearly. But I apologize for the "beep boop" thing. That was probably unnecessarily rude. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Mar 1, 2015 |
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Mar 1, 2015 00:50
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Are you thinking of Roy and not Felicity? Felicity was soooo over Oliver's reasoning. She took one look at Oliver's reasoning and sprinted vag-first into Ray's manbreasts. I agree that Thea should feel conflicted about what she did, and that it would probably burden her for the rest of her life, and it should, but the fact at the end of the day is that she absolutely made the right decision. This was a terrible situation that she got hosed into, and she took control of her situation with an option that was frankly the most correct and least awful out of all the possible routes for her to take. Like, exactly what other choice do we think she should have made, in this scenario? Yes, it's terrible that she condemned the mass-murdering psychopath, who had manipulated and wriggled his way into her protection by way of exploiting her need for love and trust, to face torture and death for the many many deaths that he'd caused. You know what would suck more? If she had continued to allow him to exploit her, psychologically and emotionally, for a single second longer than she's already been compromised. And y'know what would suck less? If Oliver had done this in the first place instead of forcing Thea to have to do it. If Oliver supported and guided her through her separation from Merlyn instead of guilt-tripping her desire for agency. Of course a simple "There there, it'll all be okay" is not going to make it all better. But how about hearing that simple support for the rest of her life? I reiterate: exactly what other option is better here for her, in this awful trap that Merlyn had concocted for her?
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Mar 1, 2015 01:13
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Narcissus1916 posted:With last episode's reveal, my money is on Rhas knowing in advance everything about Oliver's survival at the duel. Doesn't explain how Oliver survived the sword thrust, but it becomes a bit easier to take if Rhas whole plan was to severely wound Oliver to test him. Wasn't he kinda implying that? He said he already knew it wasn't him who killed Sara, it would make slightly more sense that way.
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Mar 1, 2015 03:03
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Ra's knew all along that Oliver was lying even before the fight. He just doesn't know why he's lying to protect Merlyn. But Ra's is a clever guy so its possible he reasoned out that Oliver would only be doing this for someone he loves and then to draw an easy enough connection between Thea and Malcolm. So I wouldn't be shocked if Ra's figured out that Thea was involved or pulled the trigger. But maybe he just made a reasonable decision that Thea is an innocent or maybe he just has enough respect for Oliver that he thinks he's earned Thea's life.BrianWilly posted:Are you thinking of Roy and not Felicity? Felicity was soooo over Oliver's reasoning. She took one look at Oliver's reasoning and sprinted vag-first into Ray's manbreasts. Oliver: Felicity, help me find Nyssa and same Malcolm. Felicty: NO! Oliver: I can't let Thea be responsible for killing her father. That will haunt her forever. Felicty: Fine, I'll find their airplane and then a new unhealthy relationship. Felicity obviously would like Merlyn to just die and Oliver to stop stupidly risking his life but realistically I think she understands this motivation just like she understands most of Oliver's annoying, self destructive motivations. She just doesn't like it. BrianWilly posted:I agree that Thea should feel conflicted about what she did, and that it would probably burden her for the rest of her life, and it should, but the fact at the end of the day is that she absolutely made the right decision. This was a terrible situation that she got hosed into, and she took control of her situation with an option that was frankly the most correct and least awful out of all the possible routes for her to take. Like, exactly what other choice do we think she should have made, in this scenario? Yes, it's terrible that she condemned the mass-murdering psychopath, who had manipulated and wriggled his way into her protection by way of exploiting her need for love and trust, to face torture and death for the many many deaths that he'd caused. You know what would suck more? If she had continued to allow him to exploit her, psychologically and emotionally, for a single second longer than she's already been compromised. I think Oliver just figures that she's in a vulnerable state right now given all she's learned and experienced in just a matter of days. He doesn't believe she's in a clear enough state to make as big a decisions as "I'm going to turn my evil biological father who I've spent the last X months living with over to another evil guy to torture and murder." And I don't think that's an unreasonable conclusion to draw. I don't think Oliver is TRYING to steal her agency. He's trying to protect her from a rash decision. Maybe they amount to the same thing but if you're rushing into oncoming traffic because you're pissed at me I'm still going to reach out and try to stop you, even if you're screaming for me to leave you alone. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Mar 1, 2015 |
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Mar 1, 2015 06:12
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So, uh, The Atom on Arrow is basically the poor man's Iron Man? Can he even shrink? What the gently caress man.
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Mar 1, 2015 07:18
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Because shrinking is a stupid gimmick that doesn't bring anything useful to the street-level show like Arrow?
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Mar 1, 2015 07:51
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We've been over that they weren't allowed to use Ted Kord a million times, I just don't understand why they went with Ray Palmer instead. If you're completely chaging his powers to fit the backstory you already have, why not take someone who's closer to having the right powers, and change their backstory? Like, for example, Christopher Smith. "No Felicity, you don't understand. I founded Pax Corporation to do more than just make money. I want to help this city. I want to bring peace to the streets of Starling City. I want to be.... a Peacemaker."
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Mar 1, 2015 07:59
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He'll shrink metaphorically.
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Mar 1, 2015 08:00
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boom boom boom posted:We've been over that they weren't allowed to use Ted Kord a million times, I just don't understand why they went with Ray Palmer instead. If you're completely chaging his powers to fit the backstory you already have, why not take someone who's closer to having the right powers, and change their backstory? There's not that many male scientists in the DCU that are also Superheroes. The closest I can think of off the top of my head is Will Magnus (not really a superhero) and Niles Caulder (not really all that heroic) Edit: There are two black ones, but they probably couldn't be used without recasting. Xelkelvos fucked around with this message at 08:22 on Mar 1, 2015 |
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Mar 1, 2015 08:17
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In interviews they said that Palmer was the alternate DC suggested.
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Mar 1, 2015 08:30
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Edit: Oops.
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Mar 1, 2015 08:30
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STAC Goat posted:See, I just think there is no "right option." You're right that Thea is in a hosed situation through no real cause of her own (although you could question the decision to run off with Malcolm in the first place). Every possible option means bad choices and making deals with mass murderers (because Ra's is one too). She's handing a bad dude over to a bad dude or working with a bad dude to stop a bad dude. And any way it goes she's going to have nightmares and second thoughts and possibly dead brothers. Let me present a hypothetical situation here (and I'm not arguing here, I'm just...positing): You find out recently that an estranged relative of yours, who's been staying at your house, is a murderer. In fact, he killed a lot of people. Hundreds. And furthermore he has been using his relationship with you to help in his murders; that one time you two went to Vegas for a weekend was actually a plan he concocted to be able to kill someone. Do you, or do you not, call the police to your house to arrest him, knowing that they will probably give him the death penalty? Does the fact that your actions will lead to this relative's death make you personally responsible for killing him, or are you simply being a responsible person by getting out of a dangerous situation and allowing justice to run its natural course? Yes, to be sure, the League of Assassins is not "the police" and what they do is not "justice." They themselves operate outside of the law in some very vile ways. But in Thea's situation, doesn't turning Merlyn over to the League come to the exact same result, when all is said and done, as turning Merlyn over to any non-assassin-operated legal system to punish him for his heinous crimes? Also keeping in mind that Oliver had no qualms last year about using the League to help stop Slade's rampage. I just don't think the situation is really as ethically-ambiguous as you've presented.
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Mar 1, 2015 10:24
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Gotta agree. Turning over Merlyn who's responsible for the deaths of her father, Tommy, Sara and hundreds of innocent people and for stranding Oliver on Murder Island for 5 years and has lied and manipulated her for months, made her murder a friend, placed her intentionally in the sights of the League and unleashed Slade on her and her brother (the guy who murdered her mother right in front of her)..... is a much better option than going to kill someone she's never met or heard much about and who will probably kill her and/or her brother, just so that Merlyn can again get away with his crimes. He's not worth it and the risk of Ra's killing them is much worse than the risk that she'll feel super bad about getting a psychopath killed.
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Mar 1, 2015 15:20
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If I remember correctly Bruce Timm wanted Blue Beetle a decade ago for JLU but was told he was "off-limits" then too
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Mar 1, 2015 15:33
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They literally want Ted dead in every single universe. Even ours. 
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Mar 1, 2015 15:48
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Xelkelvos posted:There's not that many male scientists in the DCU that are also Superheroes. The closest I can think of off the top of my head is Will Magnus (not really a superhero) and Niles Caulder (not really all that heroic) Vic Stone, Curt Metcalf, John Henry Irons, or Michael Holt? There's also Dan Cassidy who started out as an engineer and the latest version of Al Pratt. There really aren't a lot of good guy male engineers/scientists who would do the power armor thing.
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Mar 1, 2015 15:51
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adhuin posted:Because shrinking is a stupid gimmick that doesn't bring anything useful to the street-level show like Arrow? I disagree, he could use it to spy on enemies and get into hard to reach spaces that the Arrow otherwise couldn't. Also, Sara dying was literally pointless and Merlyn's plan was a complete nonsensical cluster gently caress that resulted in Oliver nearly dying and the league grabbing him anyways, what an idiot. Felicity has turned into a CW drama queen, Thea's back to being annoying as poo poo, and Slade is still a whiny baby that exists to just remind us that Shado existed. loving amazing that people still defend this show but continually poo poo on Agents of Shield. I'm legit mad that CW has nearly ruined this show like all of their others, I used to love Arrow but it's wearing thin already. Doesn't help either that now they're swiping storylines directly from Batman. Deakul fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Mar 1, 2015 |
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Mar 1, 2015 17:08
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The Batman storylines are why I'm loving this show. We'll never get to see a real Batman show so I am ecstatic to get at least this. Also, Atom's strongest power is his ability to control his effective mass as well as his height. Sure he's 25mm high, but he can mass 90kg.
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Mar 1, 2015 17:21
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Deakul posted:I disagree, he could use it to spy on enemies and get into hard to reach spaces that the Arrow otherwise couldn't. I'm surprised it took you 3 seasons to realize that they're cribbing stories from Batman. Season one was literally
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Mar 1, 2015 17:28
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Merlyn has been permanently neutered as a villain. His whole plan was based on the terrible calculation that Ollie was more likely to beat Ras in a fight than he was. Follow this up with Merlyn begging Ras for his life after being captured, and there's no reason to be threatened by him. It's really unfortunate after how strong of an antagonist he was in the first season. Also, the show hasn't given us any reason for Ras to want Ollie as a replacement. In Batman's case, Bruce has held his own against Ras before Ras was impressed. Here, Ras is impressed that Ollie held his own for 30 seconds.
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Mar 1, 2015 17:44
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I guess he didn't say he wants Oliver to be his *immediate* replacement? Like, maybe the idea is to train him up for the role. I think what he's supposed to have been impressed by is that Oliver 'tasted death' and came back for more rather than hiding under a rock and praying R'as wouldn't find him again. It does take a special kind of balls/crazy to go up against someone, get your rear end utterly kicked, and then go right back after the rematch.
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Mar 1, 2015 17:58
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I like the idea that Ra's knew Oliver wasn't telling the truth, so he deliberately wounded him to test him. Because delivering two non-instantaneously-fatal sword thrusts to the torso and then knocking a half naked fool off a snow-covered mountain is a hell of a test.
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Mar 1, 2015 18:07
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Habibi posted:I like the idea that Ra's knew Oliver wasn't telling the truth, so he deliberately wounded him to test him. Because delivering two non-instantaneously-fatal sword thrusts to the torso and then knocking a half naked fool off a snow-covered mountain is a hell of a test. And you thought the Kingsmen had a tough job interview...
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Mar 1, 2015 18:22
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He did lose like a chump, but he held up longer than the League mooks Ra's trains with, at least.
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Mar 1, 2015 18:28
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Valeyard posted:If I remember correctly Bruce Timm wanted Blue Beetle a decade ago for JLU but was told he was "off-limits" then too how the hell did they get Blue Beetle in Young Justice then? Although I guess that's different since Ted was dead there too
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Mar 1, 2015 18:30
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evenworse username posted:I guess he didn't say he wants Oliver to be his *immediate* replacement? Like, maybe the idea is to train him up for the role. It's all a long con to get Lance as his guy. ...Detective.
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Mar 1, 2015 18:34
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Brave and the Bold and YJ did Jaime Reyes Blue Beetle, not Ted Kord BB as their main focus.ghostwritingduck posted:Also, the show hasn't given us any reason for Ras to want Ollie as a replacement. In Batman's case, Bruce has held his own against Ras before Ras was impressed. Here, Ras is impressed that Ollie held his own for 30 seconds. Like Merlyn said, Nanda Parbat may be remote, but there's no doubt that Ra's knows what Oliver's been up to since his return from Lian Yu at the beginning of the series. It's that Batman analogue all over again, he knows and understands what Oliver is doing, and doesn't necessarily disagree with the end results. What he does disagree with is the means that Oliver takes to achieve those results. Whereas Ollie prefers to let the systems that are in place (which Ra's probably surmises are corrupt and inefficient) bring those people who harm others to justice, Ra's prefers to be judge, jury, and executioner.
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Mar 1, 2015 18:37
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Xelkelvos posted:There's not that many male scientists in the DCU that are also Superheroes. The closest I can think of off the top of my head is Will Magnus (not really a superhero) and Niles Caulder (not really all that heroic) Arrow's Ray Palmer doesn't seem much like a scientist either, he's an engineer. Also, goddamn now I wish they had gone with Micheal Holt instead of Ray Palmer
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Mar 1, 2015 19:02
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boom boom boom posted:Arrow's Ray Palmer doesn't seem much like a scientist either, he's an engineer. But then we wouldn't have Brandon Routh
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Mar 1, 2015 19:10
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Aces High posted:how the hell did they get Blue Beetle in Young Justice then? Although I guess that's different since Ted was dead there too Do you know which episode that was? Because I've never watched Young Justice, but I'll watch the poo poo out of a Ted Kord episode. Ted appeared twice on Brave and the Bold, including one episode that was a flashback to his heroic, self-sacrificing death, so Jaime could learn about the legacy of the Blue Beetle.
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Mar 1, 2015 19:17
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Lycus posted:He'll shrink metaphorically. On a cold, windy night, Ray Palmer realizes he has neglected to integrate a heating mechanism into his exosuit.
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Mar 1, 2015 19:20
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Ell hopefully he realizes it before Felicity does.
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Mar 1, 2015 19:46
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boom boom boom posted:Arrow's Ray Palmer doesn't seem much like a scientist either, he's an engineer. Dan Cassidy with the Blue Devil suit not fused to him. They already set that up with the movie posters.
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Mar 1, 2015 19:58
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Scyantific posted:I'm surprised it took you 3 seasons to realize that they're cribbing stories from Batman. Season one was literally ...What? Season 1 may have shared the tone of Batman Begins but storywise it wasn't similar at all. Season 2 couldn't be any further from TDK if it tried, all I can see is maybe the Blood storyline resembled TDKR a little bit. This nonsense with Ra's is the most blatant it has ever been, it doesn't even make any sense. Unless he's been watching Ollie for years, asking him to be his replacement after meeting him twice feels forced and silly. Also, what the hell has been the point of the flashbacks this season? I'm trying to figure them out and I can't. What did Waller even see in Ollie? Deakul fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Mar 1, 2015 |
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Mar 1, 2015 20:11
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Scyantific posted:Brave and the Bold and YJ did Jaime Reyes Blue Beetle, not Ted Kord BB as their main focus. Smallville did an episode where Jaime became Blue Beetle but Ted was also involved. And it was a godawful episode, despite also having Booster Gold in it.
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Mar 1, 2015 20:19
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hcreight posted:Smallville did an episode where Jaime became Blue Beetle but Ted was also involved. I want to say that I've seen this but apparently I blocked it from my memory as a defense mechanism.
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Mar 1, 2015 20:29
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