terrible programmers: my god, it's full of chars

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > terrible programmers: my god, it's full of chars

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comedyblissoption: Mar 15, 2006

A common logger used in .net is NLogger. It seems Good Enough for simple things. You can log at different levels of priority (e.g. logger.Debug, logger.Error, logger.Info) and configure the level of logging in your app configuration. You can build the lazy strings for expensive computations w/ your own wrapper interface trivially if need be.

This is a much better approach than commenting/uncommenting out code for ad hoc logging.

This is also better than having to remember to put if conditionals around all of your logging statements.

# ? Feb 28, 2015 23:07

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# ? May 10, 2024 12:15

Subjunctive: Sep 12, 2006; ✨sparkle and shine✨

statically analyze your logging statements to detect side-effects or computations whose results are only consumed by logging statements. I mean seriously are we savages here?

# ? Feb 28, 2015 23:18

Dessert Rose: May 17, 2004; awoken in control of a lucid deep dream...

Blinkz0rz posted:

Why couldn't you do
C# code:
logger.debug("The boner hash is {0}", calculateHash(boner));
assuming that calculateHash returns a type that has a string representation?

Does C# execute calculateHash() and then passes the result to logger.debug or does it pass the unexecuted function?

what language, anywhere, doesn't evaluate arguments before passing them to a function

i want to know so i know to avoid it

# ? Feb 28, 2015 23:31

Captain Foo: May 11, 2004; we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'

Subjunctive posted:

statically analyze your logging statements to detect side-effects or computations whose results are only consumed by logging statements. I mean seriously are we savages here?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > SeriouHardws are / Software Crap > YOSPOS > Terrible programmers

hm

# ? Feb 28, 2015 23:33

gonadic io: Feb 16, 2011; >>=

Dessert Rose posted:

what language, anywhere, doesn't evaluate arguments before passing them to a function

i want to know so i know to avoid it

langs which are non-strict by default. haskell, agda, and miranda for example. ocaml and f# etc make it very easy to do this too but it's opt-in rather than opt-out.

# ? Feb 28, 2015 23:34

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

Blinkz0rz posted:

Why couldn't you do
C# code:
logger.debug("The boner hash is {0}", calculateHash(boner));
assuming that calculateHash returns a type that has a string representation?

Does C# execute calculateHash() and then passes the result to logger.debug or does it pass the unexecuted function?

its a generic example and it could be a string or something else or you could be doing more than one thing it doesn't really matter. but yeah in c# it would do the calculateHash and pass that to debug.

# ? Feb 28, 2015 23:46

Blinkz0rz: May 27, 2001; MY CONTEMPT FOR MY OWN EMPLOYEES IS ONLY MATCHED BY MY LOVE FOR TOM BRADY'S SWEATY MAGA BALLS

Dessert Rose posted:

what language, anywhere, doesn't evaluate arguments before passing them to a function

i want to know so i know to avoid it

literally only if logger.debug wraps its arguments in a Func<string> for deferred execution

who the gently caress knows why i dunno i'm a bad programmer

# ? Mar 1, 2015 00:14

MononcQc: May 29, 2007

gonadic io posted:

langs which are non-strict by default. haskell, agda, and miranda for example. ocaml and f# etc make it very easy to do this too but it's opt-in rather than opt-out.

Add languages with macros-based logging libraries to the list.

# ? Mar 1, 2015 00:17

Valeyard: Mar 30, 2012; Grimey Drawer

Space Whale posted:

HOLLA HOLLA logger getLogger

# ? Mar 1, 2015 00:18

HappyHippo: Nov 19, 2003; Do you have an Air Miles Card?

Dessert Rose posted:

what language, anywhere, doesn't evaluate arguments before passing them to a function

i want to know so i know to avoid it

you should pick one and learn it

itll make you a better programmer

# ? Mar 1, 2015 00:57

Jerry Bindle: May 16, 2003

yeah don't avoid functional languages, they are really good

# ? Mar 1, 2015 01:02

Dessert Rose: May 17, 2004; awoken in control of a lucid deep dream...

I mean assuming you haven't like. quoted it in a list or whatever.

c# doesn't have autoclosure arguments, I guess swift does now tho so at least one curly brace language has it

like I expect that type of shenanigans in f#/haskell

# ? Mar 1, 2015 01:16

Deacon of Delicious: Aug 20, 2007; I bet the twist ending is Dracula's dick-babies

fleshweasel posted:

bikeshedding megathread

ok, what should go in the OP?

# ? Mar 1, 2015 01:30

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

Dessert Rose posted:

what language, anywhere, doesn't evaluate arguments before passing them to a function

i want to know so i know to avoid it

in tcl you have to put []'s around subexpressions, similarly, bash requires $, or ``. there's the lazy evaluated languages, which build thunks, but there are also the term rewriting languages too. oh and prolog, and datalog treat their arguments as symbolic too.

# ? Mar 1, 2015 02:45

Dessert Rose: May 17, 2004; awoken in control of a lucid deep dream...

yeah and once someone mentioned functional languages i realized lisp macros are technically like that too.

i belong in this thread most days

# ? Mar 1, 2015 04:24

DONT THREAD ON ME: Oct 1, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo; Floss Finder

Dessert Rose posted:

yeah and once someone mentioned functional languages i realized lisp macros are technically like that too.

i belong in this thread most days

er i thought lisp was a functional language?

# ? Mar 1, 2015 04:34

Jerry Bindle: May 16, 2003

lisp is a functional language, which basically means that its written in terms of its own data structures. so its not just macros that aren't evaluated before they're passed to function, but any lisp code can be passed before its evaluated

# ? Mar 1, 2015 04:52

Blinkz0rz: May 27, 2001; MY CONTEMPT FOR MY OWN EMPLOYEES IS ONLY MATCHED BY MY LOVE FOR TOM BRADY'S SWEATY MAGA BALLS

Dessert Rose posted:

yeah and once someone mentioned functional languages i realized lisp macros are technically like that too.

i belong in this thread most days

tbf i wasn't taking about a functional language i was just being dumb

# ? Mar 1, 2015 05:05

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

Barnyard Protein posted:

lisp is a functional language, which basically means that its written in terms of its own data structures. so its not just macros that aren't evaluated before they're passed to function, but any lisp code can be passed before its evaluated

source yr quotes

# ? Mar 1, 2015 05:18

brap: Aug 23, 2004; Grimey Drawer

swift has a thing called @autoclosure where an argument expression is automatically converted to a function by the compiler.

the ?? operator uses it

foo = foo ?? getDefault()

?? can be executed without evaluating the second expression for the second argument. getDefault() only needs to be evaluated if foo is nil.

# ? Mar 1, 2015 05:33

DaTroof: Nov 16, 2000; CC LIMERICK CONTEST GRAND CHAMPION
There once was a poster named Troof
Who was getting quite long in the toof

tef posted:

in tcl you have to

oh jesus you just gave me a seizure

# ? Mar 1, 2015 05:52

Dessert Rose: May 17, 2004; awoken in control of a lucid deep dream...

Barnyard Protein posted:

lisp is a functional language, which basically means that its written in terms of its own data structures. so its not just macros that aren't evaluated before they're passed to function, but any lisp code can be passed before its evaluated

you have to quote a list to pass it to a function unevaluated, whereas a macro always receives its arguments unevaluated (because macros operate on and evaluate to code themselves)

also, you can't pass a macro to a function, because a macro expands at compile time where a function evaluates at runtime

fleshweasel posted:

swift has a thing called @autoclosure where an argument expression is automatically converted to a function by the compiler.

the ?? operator uses it

foo = foo ?? getDefault()

?? can be executed without evaluating the second expression for the second argument. getDefault() only needs to be evaluated if foo is nil.

yeah it's the only non-functional language i know of that has a feature like that

# ? Mar 1, 2015 06:51

gonadic io: Feb 16, 2011; >>=

Functional doesn't mean non-strict/lazy. F# and OCaml are strict for example. Haskell is functional and non-strict but it's hardly representative.

On a side note, SPJ has said that if Haskell had been strict, he probably wouldn't have been able to resist putting in implicit side-effects the way OCaml has.

# ? Mar 1, 2015 06:56

gonadic io: Feb 16, 2011; >>=

Mind you too, almost all langs have && and || evaluate their second argument lazily too.

# ? Mar 1, 2015 06:57

MeruFM: Jul 27, 2010

gonadic io posted:

Mind you too, almost all langs have && and || evaluate their second argument lazily too.

~~why would you do || lazily???~~
Not so stealthy edit

MeruFM fucked around with this message at 08:52 on Mar 1, 2015

# ? Mar 1, 2015 08:48

MeruFM: Jul 27, 2010

stealth edit because i belong in this thread

# ? Mar 1, 2015 08:50

gonadic io: Feb 16, 2011; >>=

MeruFM posted:

why would you do || lazily???

True || _ = True

# ? Mar 1, 2015 08:51

MeruFM: Jul 27, 2010

yeah i realized that as I went through it again in my head for the 20th time

# ? Mar 1, 2015 08:53

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

everyone who posts in this thread proves they belong here eventually

# ? Mar 1, 2015 09:31

gonadic io: Feb 16, 2011; >>=

rrrrrrrrrrrt posted:

everyone belongs here

# ? Mar 1, 2015 10:02

Blinkz0rz: May 27, 2001; MY CONTEMPT FOR MY OWN EMPLOYEES IS ONLY MATCHED BY MY LOVE FOR TOM BRADY'S SWEATY MAGA BALLS

gonadic io posted:

ya we've definitely had this discussion before

we're all terrible

every last one of us

# ? Mar 1, 2015 14:30

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?