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Karate Bastard posted:Well, fight dirty. None of that honor bullshit. Gouge eyes, poke sticks into joints of samurai armor where they're less protected or where they're likely to restrict mobility. That sort of thing. And jujutsu. That setting has little to do with current warfare or even fighting, but it makes for quite interesting training. Sooooooo... jujutsu?
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Mar 2, 2015 02:11
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:Anyway the ninjitsu guy seems pretty chill, we're probably being meaner than he deserves. Probably, but his insistence on the ~historical context~ of his magic stick style bothers me both as a MA guy and a historian. Like half the reason jujutsu is built around joint locks is because it's meant for dude in armor wrassling each other, usually with knives. There's less punching because it's a bad idea to punch someone wearing a metal helmet. This fantasy land where his snowflake style was invented by peasants with sticks never existed, he's practicing non-sport jujutsu with sticks.
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Mar 2, 2015 02:25
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the JJ posted:Probably, but his insistence on the ~historical context~ of his magic stick style bothers me both as a MA guy and a historian. Like half the reason jujutsu is built around joint locks is because it's meant for dude in armor wrassling each other, usually with knives. There's less punching because it's a bad idea to punch someone wearing a metal helmet. This fantasy land where his snowflake style was invented by peasants with sticks never existed, he's practicing non-sport jujutsu with sticks. I can understand doing something just because it's fun - most things with weapons are really, though my only personal experience is Filipino Kali/Arnis. The thing is though, after doing any amount of a "live sparring" martial art, ( like BJJ/MT ) it is so incredibly obvious that no matter how much you THINK you know something, as soon as you start actually trying to apply it ( even in a low pressure, sparring environment ) in a "fight" with a fully resisting opponent, it all loving goes out the window. The only way to get better at dealing with "live" scenarios is to do them - you can train for your whole life how to kick someone in the back or gouge out their eyes but if someone actually came at you with a sword you would poo poo your pants and panic and then die. TollTheHounds fucked around with this message at 05:07 on Mar 2, 2015 |
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Mar 2, 2015 05:05
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:I'm struggling to find sources because I can't read Japanese, and this was explained to me ages ago so I hope I'm not misremembering. There's some famous ones as well, like Hattori Hanzo used by Tokugawa to evade capture and stuff, as well as the assination attempt on Nobunaga was a ninja using guns. What's interesting is that where samurai would abandon you and schemed to such an extent that it makes the Lannisters seem honourable, ninja would seemingly never abandon or betray you.
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Mar 2, 2015 06:22
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origami posted:Where's the post where the guy said he visited a ninjitsu class and they would turn off the lights so people disappear like ninjas? I think it was Xguard86, and it was some sort of "think fast" drill the school did. There was one guy in the corner with his rubber knife out, and another guy who was hanging from the rafters with his knife in his teeth.
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Mar 2, 2015 09:51
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the JJ posted:That's fine and all but you came in here dickwaving about 6 out of 9 Sengoku Jidai schools recommending historical accuracy of guys with rice pails defeating samurai. I'm torn about this post because I find it hilarious yet also unfair.
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Mar 2, 2015 12:16
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Kekekela posted:I'm torn about this post because I find it hilarious yet also unfair. I mean... Karate Bastard posted:I found this thread just now when I was idling around the forums. Nice OP! I've been doing some different styles of MA and I generally agree with everything in the OP, but ninjutsu being listed as something to avoid imho deserves a bit of comment. This is quite a long thread, so please feel free to ignore this if this has been covered already So it's lovely jujutsu he thinks is better because there's no alpha guys and he think you can't get injured outside of competitions (or, that competitions naturally lead to injuries.) Plus some bs about how what he's learning is the real historical 'dirty fighting' that those honabru samurai wouldn't get. ... which means it's jujutsu, just like the regular dirty sam's would use to kill each other with knives instead of sticks. Like if he wants to talk about his jujutsu that's cool, but he did walk in dickwaving about 6 out of 9 ancient schools, I felt obliged to take some shots. At his dick. Because of the waving.
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Mar 2, 2015 16:19
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Honorable Hattori Hanzo and the Dirty Sams would be a good band name.
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Mar 2, 2015 16:32
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Team Alpha Pail
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Mar 2, 2015 17:31
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Someone watched too much Naruto... Or too little.
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Mar 2, 2015 19:17
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the JJ posted:At his dick. You make a compelling case. This: "The art supposedly hails back to 9 schools of war in feudal Japan, 6 out of which taught ninjutsu, or as it has been explained to me: how to gently caress over a man in armor when all you got is a rice pail and a fistful of gravel. " is one hell of a sentence.
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Mar 2, 2015 20:38
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You know something is wrong when the guy who loves aikido is sceptical about ninjitsu
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Mar 2, 2015 20:42
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I think the ninja dude is pretty chill and shouldn't be teased quite as much, butNovum posted:Team Alpha Pail lolllll
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Mar 2, 2015 22:14
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Thanks to this thread I now know that taijitsu isn't only a dumb jujutsu but also it's just rebranded ninja poo poo and now I can mercilessly make fun of family members as I effortlessly grapple the poo poo out of them.
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Mar 2, 2015 22:17
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Strikers! How do you consider the art of, not of ninjutsu, but of switching sides? I' ve been taught by two schools: 1) never do it, it takes time, leaves your weaker side back making it completely useless, and you can never train both sides enough it's efficient 2) do it to mess with your mortal enemy, especially those who have never done/faced it and make them all  meanwhile discovering new punches you never knew you had I'm being partial to 2) right now. My jab is puny, but as a left hand cross.... not so puny. My worst punch, the right hook, suddenly becomes a nice and powerful lead when I switch sides. Also there are a lot of striking techniques which you can build up from standing unorthodox or switching between a combination and trading stances during. Time a charge and a slip with an unorthodox left hook to the liver and if it doesn't hit, well, you're now in your natural orthodox position, away from the power hand of your samurai foe, and ready to unload with a plethora of strikes, kicks, or plain foul play if you feel like it. And so on. Ligur fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Mar 2, 2015 |
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Mar 2, 2015 22:49
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I think you'll find I'm actually quite unteasable its a secret ninja skill  jayjay I can see you're real loving alpha for an historian, and I bet you know like a whole bunch of things about japanese culture. How about you post more about that and less about dicks and magic, because it's kinda weird to have you constantly posting dick and magic in the martial arts thread when noone else is. You're not supposed to take things so goddamned seriously, okay? Lighten up buddy! Karate Bastard fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Mar 2, 2015 |
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Mar 2, 2015 23:11
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Ligur posted:Strikers! How do you consider the art of, not of ninjutsu, but of switching sides? Although I have never done it while sparring I switch sides all the time when shadow boxing/working the bag, you switch sides all the time when doing aikido so I guess it comes from there
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Mar 2, 2015 23:14
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Does anybody else remember this x-files episode? Mulder is challenged to russian roulette by an insufferable weaboo, and the weabee guy says this to him: "Two warriors of equal skill fight to the death. One is a student of japanese budo. The way of war. Budo teaches the warrior to leave himself outside the battle. In other words, to disregard his own life. Because of that, the Budo Warrior always wins. I am that warrior."  Anyway I just thought I'd drop that because it makes me think of guys who do aikido and ninjitsu, peace
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Mar 2, 2015 23:20
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Ligur posted:Strikers! How do you consider the art of, not of ninjutsu, but of switching sides? As a leftie I actual feel quite comfortable switching to a right handed stance despite not training it a great deal, I do throw it in during sparring occasionally, the way I see it is it's something else to add to the toolkit so why not train it occasionally. I've on occasion ran Muay Thai classes where I've insisted everyone do the whole class unorthodox which is quite fun.
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Mar 2, 2015 23:20
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Karate Bastard posted:jayjay I can see you're real loving alpha for an historian, and I bet you know like a whole bunch of things about japanese culture. How about you post more about that and less about dicks and magic, because it's kinda weird to have you constantly posting dick and magic in the martial arts thread when noone else is. You're not supposed to take things so goddamned seriously, okay? Lighten up buddy! Meh, I feel like it's been gone over. The image of the honabru and strong but dumb samurai being defeated by the plucky and cunning ninja is narrative plays well with a lot of people but it's not got a lot of basis in reality. Sengoku era samurai spent a lot of time trying to kill each other and got quite good at it, then the Tokugawa Shogunate managed to clamp down on the civil wars and neutered the big clans. War became mostly theoretical but as part of that peace the samurai were enshrined as a hereditary class, and most of their skills got turned into the sport/arts we know and love today. Usually with a dash of zen thrown on top. Styles that went more sporty have adapted to be more sporty, styles that didn't tend to get up their own asses. I'll agree with you that your style is probably not weeaboo Naruto ninjutsu, but you came in here specifically to defend the honor of ninjutsu and you did so by saying two things: 1. Your style goes way back to the Sengoku Jidai and has kept all those secrets alive and can totally teach me how to take on an armed attacker. 2. You don't compete because the techniques you practice are 'too dangerous' and someone might get hurt. I mean, you tried to dress it up, but it was still there. And those are two of the biggest bullshido red flags out there. So, yeah, I'm going to make fun of you. Re: Orthodox/southpaw and changing up, I've found it useful on occasion, my muscle memory is still very shotokan so I can drop into it comfortably and we trained a lot of jabs/crosses with both arms. I do like the jab that going southpaw gives me even though there's not much follow up to it. If I'm feeling adventurous I'll kick with my right and if they back up land with that forward and try to box from there, which is nice if I'm chasing someone. Risky though.
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Mar 3, 2015 01:45
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Once you have a decent amount of sparring experience and are comfortable with your fundamentals, there's no reason not to try switching stances. If nothing else, it'll reveal how asymmetric all of your technique is. As in, it's hard to combine your orthodox slip to the outside plus the mental intent to do the same thing from southpaw into a completely working technique. All of your timing, sight, and muscle memory is tuned to the technique one way. It might also show you differences in range of motion. I can't kick nearly as high with my left leg as I can with my right -- some sort of joint limitation. If you do it enough, you'll probably discover you have a very different game from the other stance. I think discovering that and thinking about how to work on those two different games is a very satisfying part of being a hobbyist martial artist. From orthodox, I have an insanely well-timed inside leg kick. If you come in with a jab, I will kick that front leg out. At my gym, that tactic is called the kimbo305 kick because I can land it with such regularity. Sadly, the rest of my orthodox game is pretty deficient, so I only spend 20% of my time there.
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Mar 3, 2015 02:10
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kimbo305 posted:Once you have a decent amount of sparring experience and are comfortable with your fundamentals, there's no reason not to try switching stances. If nothing else, it'll reveal how asymmetric all of your technique is. As in, it's hard to combine your orthodox slip to the outside plus the mental intent to do the same thing from southpaw into a completely working technique. All of your timing, sight, and muscle memory is tuned to the technique one way. Yeah I can't high kick from my rear leg when I'm in southpaw, so I throw body kicks, and throw high off my lead leg. I also throw a really mean front leg side kick from south paw but prefer to teep with my lead from orthodox. My first instructor made us do every drill from south paw as well as orthodox so I'm really comfortable moving and defending from either stance which makes me a lot harder to hit and chase since I'm always changing angles. It's a huge skill to learn but yeah I agree, you find different things that work better in your off stance and tend to build around that, I do at least.
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Mar 3, 2015 02:33
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When I'm in southpaw I can hit guys from different angles with a harder jab. I can also eat an orthodox fighter's rear leg roundhouse kick to the face all day long because I forget how to block or move away from strikes
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Mar 3, 2015 02:36
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I'm entering Naga in April in NoGi in beginner either heavy or super heavy, Am I gonna get my arm torn off or are people chill bros who won't immediately crank the poo poo out of sub's they catch? 
Defenestrategy fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Mar 3, 2015 |
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Mar 3, 2015 02:58
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I have the awful problem of having good boxing (for my gym) but lumbering kicks with my right leg from the orthodox.When I switch my boxing devolves into poo poo but my left kicks suddenly become much more limber and fast.Yay for sucking at one thing always I guess.
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Mar 3, 2015 03:53
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KildarX posted:I'm entering Naga in April in NoGi in beginner either heavy or super heavy, Am I gonna get my arm torn off or are people chill bros who won't immediately crank the poo poo out of sub's they catch? The arm one. Try to not let that happen.
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Mar 3, 2015 04:02
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As long as its length falls within the bounds of your local laws you can actually bring a knife onto the mats at Naga.
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Mar 3, 2015 05:06
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Yep, toe holds and heel hooks too.
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Mar 3, 2015 05:46
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I swear I'm doing something really wrong in BJJ. Aren't you supposed to hurt like hell and be totally beat up the day after? I always feel really good. All my sore muscles have gotten a loose, knots in my back have ground themselves open on the mat and testosterone is pumping through me giving a metric poo poo ton of energy. Nothing jump starts my lovely metabolism like a good roll. Call me crazy but I don't think there's anything wrong with practicing TMA and non-competitive martial arts if you like them... The problems begin when the practitioners delude themselves or their students into thinking the stuff they are learning will shield them from harm when it's probably not going to. Aikido looks pretty, can be a good workout and if the dudes doing it think it's fun then cool. Good for them. Same for ninjitsu or whatever even with the dumb false history. Wanna play a ninja? Cool. Go at it. Do cool jumps and stuff. Flip out. General Emergency fucked around with this message at 08:44 on Mar 3, 2015 |
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Mar 3, 2015 08:38
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General Emergency posted:I swear I'm doing something really wrong in BJJ. Aren't you supposed to hurt like hell and be totally beat up the day after? I always feel really good. All my sore muscles have gotten a loose, knots in my back have ground themselves open on the mat and testosterone is pumping through me giving a metric poo poo ton of energy. Nothing jump starts my lovely metabolism like a good roll.
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Mar 3, 2015 13:44
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Ligur posted:Strikers! How do you consider the art of, not of ninjutsu, but of switching sides? Funny enough this works great with swords as well. Most everyone you spar is trained to be right arm dominant, so if you put some work into your left, you can really screw with them by having your natural lines of attack all be reversed. I used to get good mileage out of it in the SCA because other fighters around my skill level didn't have the experience to know what to change in their guard. The more experienced guys generally had counters, of course, but that's the nature of training.
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Mar 3, 2015 16:12
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Ligur posted:Strikers! How do you consider the art of, not of ninjutsu, but of switching sides? Switching isn't hugely popular in MMA because most people can only perform takedowns on one side. That said, lifelong wrestlers usually wrestle right leg forward but strike left leg forward, so their takedowns often require switching before going for a takedown. In Muay Thai it seems fairly popular, at least with guys at my gym. I stick mostly to orthodox, since my body mechanics feel worse when I've switched.
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Mar 3, 2015 16:20
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Here's an article from the Dallas Morning News that one of my training partners wrote about triple amputee Iraq veteran that started training BJJ. It's a great story with some touching moments. Give it a read! http://res.dallasnews.com/interactives/mma-amputee/
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Mar 3, 2015 17:33
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General Emergency posted:.... my sore muscles have gotten a loose, knots in my back have ground themselves open on the mat and testosterone is pumping through me giving a metric poo poo ton of energy. Nothing jump starts my lovely metabolism like a good roll. I don't think a lot of people really have a problem with TMA and non-competitive MAs or, say, dancing. People tend to rag on ninjas or Krav Warriors With Too Deadly Techniques To Use in this thread (a little more than we used to even), but most of the time, only if they give you a reason to think they have mastered hidden arts of murderous combat a mere boxer or a competitive grappler could not stand against. But which are too deadly to train!!!1 Because every martial artist/hobbyist who has ever tried competing knows your poo poo won't work unless you train with partners who resist you very mightily, and do it often. I feel the attitude also has to do with McDojos cashing on bullshit (selling stuff as "self-defense" when it's just "a confidence, and minor athletic, booster") - and also people who have been into competitive martial arts for a while or just training since a kid who have seen mystic TMA fighters with secret techniques completely gassing out during some crunches and getting themselves manhadled by semi-trained hobbyist boxers, kickboxers and grapplers over the years. Hell I saw a fight, with a "jiujitsu black belt" involved in the 90s, which started putting things into perspective - he was a feared JiuJitsu Master and was then utterly tooled by another dude (also in his late teens) who had never done anything but brawl at the night grill every weekend and play soccer and ice hockey (when not getting into trouble, that is). A former trainer buddy used to go to a Wing Chun school where they told people that it was the ultimate solution to hand to hand combat but soon noticed stuff like... early UFC had none of these guys around for some reason. And then there's the ninjas who come to a gym and can't do 10 push-ups. And black belt Karatekas getting knocked out by a single low velocity body shot from an amateur boxer. I don't think Kyokushin guys need apply, but also lot of Karate used to be formalized, non resisting McDojo drills where every technique was telegraphed intentionally to an extent an actual competitive striker would just step aside in confusion and crack a counter - which the formalized drillers had no defense against, but a "black belt karateka" was still automatically feared... back in the day. So there's nothing wrong with doing Aikido or Bujinkan or weird stickfighting or some esoteric form of kata based Karate, or that version of TKD with only kicks where you drop your hands to your waist, all movement is good, all movement is fun if you find a thing you like or love and is to be encouraged, but boxers/kickboxers/grapplers/mma guys will almost invariably take exception when someone does these things and tries to make out like his Crane Style would prevail and the only reason they don't really train or compete in it live is because it's too deadly or that the jumping spin kicks would actually drop anyone even though they know how to cover their head. And that was my TMA/ballet rant, thanks. Also, on the other subject, if I sleep and eat well, I often feel great the day after training instead of sore and busted. It's only when I train too many times a week with too little decent food and sleep that I suffer, or do something I don't usually do all the time, like the walking lunges around the gym corridor with the motherfucking kettlebells. edit: as an example, I don't think a lot of the HEMA guys do something very "useful" when it comes to competing in any modern ring (or even the night grill if it comes to that...), but they never cast any aura of mysticism over it or never go about it like they do anything apart from having a good time with medieval European martial arts with old manuals and armor and swords and shields and trips and fun - and I can't remember them getting any poo poo over it either, the opposite if anything Ligur fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Mar 3, 2015 |
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Mar 3, 2015 20:06
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Who remembers that quad amputee that wanted to be an MMA fighter. I know he had at least one fight. I know nothing is impossible and follow your dreams and all that but come on -edit http://youtu.be/YARJ0mzsZb0
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Mar 3, 2015 20:42
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Ligur posted:edit: as an example, I don't think a lot of the HEMA guys do something very "useful" when it comes to competing in any modern ring (or even the night grill if it comes to that...), but they never cast any aura of mysticism over it or never go about it like they do anything apart from having a good time with medieval European martial arts with old manuals and armor and swords and shields and trips and fun - and I can't remember them getting any poo poo over it either, the opposite if anything Apparently they have their own schisms with manual purists/sportsy focused/my school is better, that stuff. I only know this because of chill HEMA folks complaining about unchill HEMA folks though, so that's cool. I think the worst thing to happen to TMA's is buying belts. Second worst might be belts in the first place.  "Oh yeah, my little nephew does that, he's eleven." "That's cool, do you know what style? How long has he been doing it?" "Oh, I don't know about styles. He's been doing it for two years, and he's already a black belt." "... cool."I mean, it used to be that the belt meant, at very least "I think you're good enough to go out on your own, maybe teach, work on your own style, and I won't be embarrassed to have your name connected to me." You know, a way of signalling progression in an easily recognized way. Now it's an end in itself for a lot of folks and the McDojo cares more about keeping customers paying than anything else. And if the customers care more about the belts than the training... I mean, a lot of schools still do it well. The BJJ community, it seems to me, has been pretty good about making their belts mean something. That might be wrong, but every BJJ blue/brown/black belt I've met, regardless of school, has seemed at least at the level they're 'supposed' to be, if not better.* Most of the judo peeps I've met are also like that, it's still more a sport focused on competitions than an art focused on belts, so they've just skipped that concern. *Of course, my ground game is dogshit, so it's like the difference between an immediate and smooth execution, vs. me pathetically struggling for a few minutes. Anyway, I got snowed in for two weeks, then had to work double shifts for a co-worker, and now my shoulder is shot.  I haven't trained in like a month and I should probably not tonight either.
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Mar 3, 2015 21:46
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Yeah BJJ belts are on point. Sometimes you'll have a dude that's been a blue belt forever (most likely to win tournaments for his school) but other than that
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Mar 3, 2015 21:48
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I expect with a few more generations the BJJ belt system will become similar to every other martial art.
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Mar 3, 2015 22:28
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Dysgenesis posted:I expect with a few more generations the BJJ belt system will become similar to every other martial art. People keep saying that and it keeps not happening.
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Mar 3, 2015 22:33
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Dysgenesis posted:I expect with a few more generations the BJJ belt system will become similar to every other martial art. Not if people keep competing, which Ninja schools don't do, because their arts are too deadly. Competition keeps people honest.
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Mar 4, 2015 00:04
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