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ZepiaEltnamOberon posted:The numbers I keep being thrown around, apparently attributed to Toriyama, are as follows. poo poo, that means Farmer with Shotgun is just a step under Goku!
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Mar 4, 2015 14:18
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Little Mac posted:Imagine Satan with a shotgun I could've sworn he shot Buu at one point.
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Mar 4, 2015 16:18
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I know that power levels are bullshit. You don't have to keep telling me that they are bullshit and bad for the narrative of it. They were also a part of the thing for a while, and it's fun to think about and discuss.
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Mar 4, 2015 17:16
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If Piccolo replaced his weighted clothes with shotguns, could he have taken Raditz by himself?
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Mar 4, 2015 17:30
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Firstborn posted:I know that power levels are bullshit. You don't have to keep telling me that they are bullshit and bad for the narrative of it. They were also a part of the thing for a while, and it's fun to think about and discuss. They aren't even completely bullshit, which is the thing that is frustrating when people always drop that line. Outside of the Z-Fighters power levels are remarkably accurate as far as you can tell. Vegeta's power level gets above Cui, he ends Cui. He gets stronger than Dudoria, he kills Dudoria. Even when you include the Z-fighters power levels are useful as a general guide, they can tell you that Nappa will beat the ever loving piss out of the lot of them excepting when they power up special attacks, for example. Relying on power levels as the be all end all of determining who wins a fight is stupid, but they are useful at giving overall comparisons.
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Mar 4, 2015 17:52
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The bullshit thing about power levels is how they fluctuate according to the plot's whims. Piccolo goes from being weaker than Nappa to stronger than first form Freeza just by fusing with Nail so he can have a dramatic entrance. Vegeta's first zenkai on Namek conveniently zips him from being weaker to Zarbon to being able to crush him, and his second one pumps him all the way up to like third form Freeza just in time for him to get his pride broken. Cell absorbing 17 lets him match Piccolo but conveniently not Vegeta (who is about to come in and dramatically save the day) and so on. So yes you can say "the person with the higher power level won! See, it works!" but you may as well be saying "the winner won!". The whole system is pretty arbitrary and people are sick of talking about it because it inevitably leads to "wait how do the numbers work" when the answer is always and forever more "they don't".
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Mar 4, 2015 18:04
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BlitzBlast posted:The bullshit thing about power levels is how they fluctuate according to the plot's whims. Piccolo goes from being weaker than Nappa to stronger than first form Freeza just by fusing with Nail so he can have a dramatic entrance. Vegeta's first zenkai on Namek conveniently zips him from being weaker to Zarbon to being able to crush him, and his second one pumps him all the way up to like third form Freeza just in time for him to get his pride broken. Cell absorbing 17 lets him match Piccolo but conveniently not Vegeta (who is about to come in and dramatically save the day) and so on. Except for most of those there's a lot of training and poo poo between the the events so by the rules the show's had since loving Dragonball it makes sense. Also the Vegeta Zarbon complaint is the dumbest thing ever because Vegeta was kicking first form Zarbons rear end easily and was beaten by the transformation so yeah of course he could beat him post Zenkai. And the Krillin induced one was his 3rd on Namek, Recoom kicked the ever loving poo poo out of him, remember? Hell, vegeta had been training ofr an entire year to beat the Androids/Cell so of course he was gonna be stronger than 2nd Form Cell. By Goku rules a year of focused training means you should be able to punch god in his face.
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Mar 4, 2015 18:10
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Except for most of those there's a lot of training and poo poo between the the events so by the rules the show's had since loving Dragonball it makes sense. Also the Vegeta Zarbon complaint is the dumbest thing ever because Vegeta was kicking first form Zarbons rear end easily and was beaten by the transformation so yeah of course he could beat him post Zenkai. And the Krillin induced one was his 3rd on Namek, Recoom kicked the ever loving poo poo out of him, remember? Hell, vegeta had been training ofr an entire year to beat the Androids/Cell so of course he was gonna be stronger than 2nd Form Cell. By Goku rules a year of focused training means you should be able to punch god in his face. Yeah, but even then, his first zenkai takes him from 18k (Earth Vegeta) to around 24k. Before Cui would destroy the poo poo out of him, now he can destroy him and Dodoria. Being beaten to a pulp by Zarbon takes him from 24k (lower than Zarbon transformed) to somewhere in the forties or so. Enough to murder zarbon, not enough to beat Recoome. Then being beaten up by Recoome gives Vegeta one more Zenkai taking him to a level where he can fight Freeza's first form at 530k, and being shot by Krillin gives Vegeta yet another zenkai making vegeta roughly on par with the third form of freeza at like, 2 millionish. There is no point between any of these events where Vegeta trains. I guess you could rationalise it as "vegeta's body has been near-death so many times that his body is like "gently caress it, take ALL THE POWER NOW."
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Mar 4, 2015 18:24
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Zenkais are exponential 
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Mar 4, 2015 18:29
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TheKingofSprings posted:Zenkais are exponential Zenkai's are exponential growth going to the Limit Super Saiyin. Basic Alien calculus you fuckers.
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Mar 4, 2015 18:30
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TheKingofSprings posted:Zenkais are exponential but only sort of, because the one after recoome kicked Vegeta an order of magnitude up, whereas the one from Krillin (which was later) only bumped him like, four times up at most.
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Mar 4, 2015 18:31
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Caros posted:They aren't even completely bullshit, which is the thing that is frustrating when people always drop that line. No, it applies to other characters too. Frieza's power levels are all hidden by his transformations. So is Zarbon's. Guldo is the weakest member of the Ginyu Force by far but he can stop time which is a hell of a lot more significant than a higher power level. Krillin could have killed Nappa in one shot with his Destruco Disk. Power levels are only meaningful to the guys who get fooled by them.
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Mar 4, 2015 18:31
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If power levels were a thing, why weren't there any other Saiyans out there who were ultra strong? They got into life-threatening scrapes all the time.
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Mar 4, 2015 18:39
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New Leaf posted:If power levels were a thing, why weren't there any other Saiyans out there who were ultra strong? They got into life-threatening scrapes all the time. The correct narrative answer is that a zenkai makes you exactly strong enough to take on your next challenge, but not strong enough to take on the one after it. fake edit: because most aliens are in fact pretty weak, most saiyans don't get super strong from zenkais because their next plotwise challenge would be "another dumb alien"
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Mar 4, 2015 18:41
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Yeah Zenkai as a story concept doesn't work if you think too hard about it.
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Mar 4, 2015 18:42
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There's also the fact that the Saiyans have to be healed afterwards. A Zenkai boost doesn't mean poo poo if you've suffered a crippling, life threatening injury after all. Reports that the Power Levels of wounded Saiyans rose dramatically after spending time in a Bacta Tank probably contributed to Frieza's motives to blowing up Planet Vegeta. Forgot the vague myths of a Super Saiyan, he was likely more concerned with the more pragmatic possibility of an army of Saiyans getting a clue and beating each other up repeatedly to give themselves enough Zenkais to become a nuisance to his regime.
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Mar 4, 2015 18:44
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Good thing in the main story they have just enough Sensu Beans to use on minor injuries early to run out at the critical moment when they're needed most otherwise healing up would be a pain.
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Mar 4, 2015 18:47
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Exercu posted:fake edit: because most aliens are in fact pretty weak, most saiyans don't get super strong from zenkais because their next plotwise challenge would be "another dumb alien" Yeah, this is the reason. I don't think Saiyans often had the opportunity to abuse Zenkais. Even Vegeta's meager 18,000 made him the tenth strongest person in Freeza's empire, and he probably went his whole life without ever experiencing a real challenge. Your average Saiyan warrior was already significantly stronger than the indigenous riffraff that he needed to conquer. If Saiyans did get lucky enough to recieve Zenkai, they would probably only ever get one before they became so strong that they could complete any future missions without any risk at all. There's also the fact that they tended to abuse Oozaru form instead, which made them so powerful that there was never any real chance that they would be harmed in the first place.
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Mar 4, 2015 18:48
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Hell, didn't Vegeta and Nappa say that their usual invasion technique was to grow a handful of Baibamen and let them kill everything? Barring the suicide attack, Saibamen are weaker than Yamcha, yet 5 of them are considered a planetary extinction event.
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Mar 4, 2015 18:51
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If I found out my race had that kind of power, that would become my entire life. There would be businesses devoted to almost killing you, then nursing you back to health. Saiyans would rule the loving universe. I don't understand why Vegeta and Nappa didn't beat the gently caress out of each other daily to try to become stronger than Frieza, or at least work their way up the food chain.
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Mar 4, 2015 18:52
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In It For The Tank posted:Yeah, this is the reason. I don't think Saiyans often had the opportunity to abuse Zenkais. Even Vegeta's meager 18,000 made him the tenth strongest person in Freeza's empire, and he probably went his whole life without ever experiencing a real challenge. Your average Saiyan warrior was already significantly stronger than the indigenous riffraff that he needed to conquer. If Saiyans did get lucky enough to recieve Zenkai, they would probably only ever get one before they became so strong that they could complete any future missions without any risk at all. There's also the fact that they tended to abuse Oozaru form instead, which made them so powerful that there was never any real chance that they would be harmed in the first place. That's a very good point - using Oozaru, even a low class Saiyan such as Raditz becomes far stronger than the average grunts in Frieza's army. Given Vegeta and presumably other Saiyans could use brilliant science to create "artificial moons", it would have meant on the rare occasions that their Scouters told them they faced a foe too strong for them, there would be no reason for them not to transform. Hell, given Oozaru is a x10 boost...would Saiyan Saga Vegeta and Nappa be able to take on the Ginyu Force?
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Mar 4, 2015 18:55
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New Leaf posted:If I found out my race had that kind of power, that would become my entire life. There would be businesses devoted to almost killing you, then nursing you back to health. Saiyans would rule the loving universe. I don't understand why Vegeta and Nappa didn't beat the gently caress out of each other daily to try to become stronger than Frieza, or at least work their way up the food chain. I assume because the only source of reliable healing they had belonged to Frieza.
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Mar 4, 2015 18:57
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ImpAtom posted:I assume because the only source of reliable healing they had belonged to Frieza. Then check yourself into a fancy Frieza-run hospital and tell them you fell down some stairs or something.
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Mar 4, 2015 19:00
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Exercu posted:Then being beaten up by Recoome gives Vegeta one more Zenkai taking him to a level where he can fight Freeza's first form at 530k, and being shot by Krillin gives Vegeta yet another zenkai making vegeta roughly on par with the third form of freeza at like, 2 millionish. I'll give you the first one here, but Vegeta didn't even fight Freeza in his 3rd form, Freeza transformed because he just decided "gently caress it. Killing you all now and showing you how hopeless it was the whole time." I think 3rd form Freeza would have hosed Vegeta up, anyway. Vegeta was just being delusional for that whole fight up until the end.
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Mar 4, 2015 19:01
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New Leaf posted:Then check yourself into a fancy Frieza-run hospital and tell them you fell down some stairs or something. Yeah, but they report that poo poo in and I imagine "Vegeta showed up with a giant hole in his stomach from falling down the stairs, AGAIN" gets you a visit from the Ginyu Force.
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Mar 4, 2015 19:03
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They seem like a caring bunch to their friends, so yeah, I expect they'd bring chocolates and good will everytime.
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Mar 4, 2015 19:06
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The Ginyus are the best, and should have stuck around (at least the Captain) as plucky comic relief as they try to whip HFIL into shape.i want to see their day to day adventures.
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Mar 4, 2015 19:19
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projecthalaxy posted:The Ginyus are the best, and should have stuck around (at least the Captain) as plucky comic relief as they try to whip HFIL into shape.i want to see their day to day adventures. The Ginyus are unironically the best part of Xenoverse.
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Mar 4, 2015 19:19
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Having Ginyu as your mentor in Xenoverse is seriously the best thing.
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Mar 4, 2015 19:22
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Pureauthor posted:Having Ginyu as your mentor in Xenoverse is seriously the best thing. The only thing that sucks is Body Change being limited to vs battles.
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Mar 4, 2015 19:23
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I did so good kicking Freeza's rear end that the Captain is gonna take me out for chocolate parfaits!
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Mar 4, 2015 19:23
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Brony Hunter posted:That's a very good point - using Oozaru, even a low class Saiyan such as Raditz becomes far stronger than the average grunts in Frieza's army. Given Vegeta and presumably other Saiyans could use brilliant science to create "artificial moons", it would have meant on the rare occasions that their Scouters told them they faced a foe too strong for them, there would be no reason for them not to transform. Saiyan Saga Vegeta is, I believe, canonically calculated at 18,000. Captain Ginyu, the strongest of the Ginyu Force is canonically confirmed to have a maximum of 120,000. When Goku lands on Namek and shows off to Ginyu, Ginyu's scouter shows 180,000. If Oozaru is actually a 10x boost, then Saiyan Saga Oozaru Vegeta was as powerful as Goku after 100x gravity training.
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Mar 4, 2015 19:26
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It's kinda sad when you think about it. They were just doing their jobs, and they were apparently really good at it and loved what they did. They thought what they were doing was right. And then these assholes showed up and started beating up their co-workers and ruining their boss' day. I mean, what the gently caress? And now they're all dead. Poor bastards.
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Mar 4, 2015 19:28
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New Leaf posted:It's kinda sad when you think about it. They were just doing their jobs, and they were apparently really good at it and loved what they did. They thought what they were doing was right. And then these assholes showed up and started beating up their co-workers and ruining their boss' day. I mean, what the gently caress? And now they're all dead. Poor bastards. Well, they enjoyed murdering children so they weren't really that good.
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Mar 4, 2015 19:31
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ImpAtom posted:Well, they enjoyed murdering children so they weren't really that good. No, they murdered a short alien who killed a bunch of their friends. Technically. Edit: And really, you're projecting human morals on space aliens. 
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Mar 4, 2015 19:32
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ImpAtom posted:Well, they enjoyed murdering children Heroes.
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Mar 4, 2015 19:33
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Some Numbers posted:Saiyan Saga Vegeta is, I believe, canonically calculated at 18,000. Captain Ginyu, the strongest of the Ginyu Force is canonically confirmed to have a maximum of 120,000. Actually, now that I think about it, was the "Oozaru is a 10x boost" line from the anime only, or maybe a dub line? I don't remember it anywhere in the manga...
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Mar 4, 2015 19:38
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New Leaf posted:If I found out my race had that kind of power, that would become my entire life. There would be businesses devoted to almost killing you, then nursing you back to health. Saiyans would rule the loving universe. I don't understand why Vegeta and Nappa didn't beat the gently caress out of each other daily to try to become stronger than Frieza, or at least work their way up the food chain. Could you handle the full mental trauma that comes along with your plan? The constant cycle of near death, only to be brought back from the edge of the grave, all for a slight boost in power? Unless you're Zaraki Kenpachi, I doubt you'd be able to function as a person of sound mind after a dozen times.
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Mar 4, 2015 19:38
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Parrotine posted:Could you handle the full mental trauma that comes along with your plan? The constant cycle of near death, only to be brought back from the edge of the grave, all for a slight boost in power? They're Saiyans. They live for this poo poo. Unless they're like Tarble or Gine I guess.
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Mar 4, 2015 19:41
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This ^^^^Parrotine posted:Could you handle the full mental trauma that comes along with your plan? The constant cycle of near death, only to be brought back from the edge of the grave, all for a slight boost in power? Plus, it's hardly a small boost. Vegeta got like a 50% increase his first go around. He begged Krilin to blast him through the chest during the Frieza fight just to get the next dose. Being the best was his only goal in life. He should be willing to go the distance. No pain no gain.
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Mar 4, 2015 19:47
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