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QuoProQuid posted:Really though, the "winner" of the series will be the one that is most narratively satisfying for GRRM and his readers. As much as I enjoy Stannis, I don't think there's any question that Jon is going to come out on top at the end.
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Mar 4, 2015 08:38
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The Sharmat posted:If you don't think the whole 'Jon briefly thinks it's loving Robert come back to save everyone' followed by 'Stannis! Stannis! STANNIS!' thing doesn't have a triumphant, upbeat tone then I don't even know what to say. I haven't read the books in a few years, but I don't remember it being heroic. I remember it being surprising for sure, one of the best surprises in the series for me. If I remember correctly Jon looks at the carnage and death on the battle field, hears the guys yelling Stannis, pieces together what's happening and then just kind of calmly and emotionlessly walks back into the tent. It felt like all the slaughter and war finally got to Jon and he wasn't happy or upset about Stannis smashing the Wildling army. In the TV show it's definitely the awesome, but super sinister sounding, theme music of Stannis that makes that scene seem like a bad thing.
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Mar 4, 2015 08:48
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Book Jon is ordered to treat with Mance and kill him. Mance reveals his horn of Joruman or whatever and says he isn't looking to conquer just hide behind the wall. Jon is impulsively considering his offer when Stannis attacks. It is entirely possible that Jon would have tried to take command of the NW and bring the wildlings through as he knows perfectly well that the NW can not withstand another attack. Then Stannis shows up finally doing the right thing and completely loving up what could have been an amazing thing for everyone. Jon as LC, Mance his ally, the wildlings in the gift. Basically everything that ended up happening just without the slaughter of Free Folk. I got a total PTSD I can't really feel things right now vibe from Jon in the aftermath chapter.
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Mar 4, 2015 09:06
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Except that Slynt and Thorne would have killed Jon if he tried that and the war with the wildlings would have continued until they slaughtered the Nights Watch and swarmed into the north, or all died trying to get over the wall.
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Mar 4, 2015 09:13
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In the book Jon was sent on a suicide mission to assassinate Mance in order to prove his innocence and was seconds away from uselessly drawing his sword and being cut down when Stannis showed up. It was definitely portrayed as a good thing.
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Mar 4, 2015 09:14
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In It For The Tank posted:In the book Jon was sent on a suicide mission to assassinate Mance in order to prove his innocence and was seconds away from uselessly drawing his sword and being cut down when Stannis showed up. It was definitely portrayed as a good thing. No. Jon is looking for an opportunity to take out the Horn, but this is expected so Wyamar blocks him. He has definitely not committed to any plan of action beyond destroying the horn if he can when Stannis attacks. Blind Melon fucked around with this message at 09:31 on Mar 4, 2015 |
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Mar 4, 2015 09:27
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Yup. His last thought before news of Stannis' arrival spreads is that he could not bring Mance's terms back to Slynt and Thorne without being killed by them and that he would have to try and break the Mance's "Horn of Winter". Unless you think he was going to punch the giant magic horn, Jon was logically going to draw his sword and get himself killed.
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Mar 4, 2015 09:31
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He is still thinking things through when Stannis shows up. It literally says "a thousand thoughts flashed through his head" and his last thought is actually to smash the horn but "before he could think it through" Stannis shows up. Jon doesn't even react when he learns it's Stannis, he just turns and walks into the tent and deals with the whole childbirth thing while a whole horrors of war scene plays out. It's not heroic. Not at all. And yes. I do think he was going to punch the magical horn. It seems like it would cause more damage to pick it up and smash it rather than slicing it with a really sharp sword. It also seems much more likely to succeed as people generally are more on the look out for sword draws. Blind Melon fucked around with this message at 09:40 on Mar 4, 2015 |
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Mar 4, 2015 09:35
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But the reason the arrival is good is because it spared Jon from having to sacrifice himself. War is terrible, yeah, but the reader's investment is the main character whose life was in jeopardy and was saved by the timely arrival of the rightful king of Westeros. That's why Stannis' arrival is likely to be percieved as heroic, because it represents the point of ASOS where the fortunes of the characters begins to turn around. Before this you have the Red Wedding, Oberyn's death, and other assorted misery. Stannis provides the reader with the first good news they've had in a long time and he does so by saving the day.
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Mar 4, 2015 09:46
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War is terrible. War is not heroic. Stannis showing up does not solve anything. It does not make the realm any safer beyond potentially providing an opportunity to take out the horn. That's why Jon shuts down. That's why the battle is more remenescant of Kal Drogo's conquests than it is of Tywin crushing Roose Bolton's army. Sure, it's a good thing, but it's a good thing like Joffery dying, or Theon getting tortured.
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Mar 4, 2015 10:00
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If we are allowing ourselves to remove the focus of the scene from the intimate character drama of Jon's life being saved to the grander context, why stop at the wildlings? The biggest conflict of the series is the encroaching threat of the Others, and Stannis can't fight the Others and save humanity until the wildlings are dealt with and the Wall's safety is secured. By crushing the wildling threat, Stannis frees up the Night's Watch to begin protecting the realm and takes the initiative in mobilizing them against the real antagonists of the series. Stannis says as much in the next Jon chapter. We also know that Mance's horn was a bluff, and that the battle would have continued had Stannis not shown up. The wildlings would have suffered tremendous losses before they overcame the Wall's defenses, and with the Others at their backs and their own reanimating dead to worry about they might not have even survived at all. Even if you view Stannis' arrival in a negative light, it was still better than any of the alternatives, and for that reason can be considered a good thing becuase it minimized casualties and allowed the wildlings to pass through the Wall as refugees rather than conquerors. If the wildlings had been let through the Wall without the more truculent and vicious people like Varamyr and Harma being killed first, there would have been chaos on the south side of the Wall. Do you think someone like the Weeper could be trusted to play nice? I don't. In It For The Tank fucked around with this message at 10:24 on Mar 4, 2015 |
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Mar 4, 2015 10:21
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Even though Stannis's arrival was for the best, I do remember feeling quite bad for the Wildlijgs. A fairly undisciplined army with boiled leather armor being run down by fully armored Knights on war horses was pretty gruesome.
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Mar 4, 2015 11:14
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Blind Melon posted:War is terrible. War is not heroic. Stannis showing up does not solve anything. It does not make the realm any safer beyond potentially providing an opportunity to take out the horn. That's why Jon shuts down. That's why the battle is more remenescant of Kal Drogo's conquests than it is of Tywin crushing Roose Bolton's army. Sure, it's a good thing, but it's a good thing like Joffery dying, or Theon getting tortured. Yeah there's a lot of parallels between Stannis showing up and saving the Night's Watch rear end and Theon having his dick cut off, if you think about it. Also the Ride of the Rohirrim was a tragic example of ethnic cleansing and if you find it heroic I think you're a pretty troubled individual.
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Mar 4, 2015 14:58
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The Sharmat posted:Yeah there's a lot of parallels between Stannis showing up and saving the Night's Watch rear end and Theon having his dick cut off, if you think about it.  It's fiction
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Mar 4, 2015 17:05
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I don't remember what the code for the :that'sthejoke: smilie is but pretend I put that in this post.
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Mar 4, 2015 17:59
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The Sharmat posted:I don't remember what the code for the :that'sthejoke: smilie is but pretend I put that in this post. I almost did that but was afraid I was getting caught in a meta-meta-metahumor trap of some kind
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Mar 4, 2015 18:41
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Trap sprung I guess
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Mar 4, 2015 19:23
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The music for Stannis arriving was spooky but he outright pays his respects to Ned and does what Jon recommended him to do, it's pretty "heroic" if you ask me. Also guys, watch Dany's scene when she fucks up the slavers for the first time, it's down right sinister as gently caress, in fact only the Starks get heroic music. Also according to that leaked script, which has been proven to be legit, Stannis won't burn Mance and will agree to help him lead the wildlings over the wall if Jon gets him to step down from Kingship. In the books he just says "gently caress it!" and orders Mance to burn despite it being really loving stupid and horrible. Book Stannis is seriously overrated. Oh yeah, also TV Stannis actually respects his wife enough in the show to admit his adultery and visits his daughter despite being told it's not wise to do. When does Book Stannis ever show love for his family? I know D&D hosed up with burning the Florent guy but mostly Stannis has been portrayed as rather sympathetic and not medieval Darth Vader. BillBear fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Mar 4, 2015 |
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Mar 4, 2015 19:48
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In It For The Tank posted:If we are allowing ourselves to remove the focus of the scene from the intimate character drama of Jon's life being saved to the grander context, why stop at the wildlings? The biggest conflict of the series is the encroaching threat of the Others, and Stannis can't fight the Others and save humanity until the wildlings are dealt with and the Wall's safety is secured. By crushing the wildling threat, Stannis frees up the Night's Watch to begin protecting the realm and takes the initiative in mobilizing them against the real antagonists of the series. Stannis says as much in the next Jon chapter. Stannis coming to the wall creates more problems than it solves. In It For The Tank posted:We also know that Mance's horn was a bluff, and that the battle would have continued had Stannis not shown up. We do not actually know that the battle would have continued. It is likely. It is very likely. It was not certain, and for the first time there was the possibility of a happy ending, though admittedly a slim one. In It For The Tank posted:The wildlings would have suffered tremendous losses before they overcame the Wall's defenses, and with the Others at their backs and their own reanimating dead to worry about they might not have even survived at all. Even if you view Stannis' arrival in a negative light, it was still better than any of the alternatives, and for that reason can be considered a good thing becuase it minimized casualties and allowed the wildlings to pass through the Wall as refugees rather than conquerors. Except if Jon can find a way around his superior officers. Given that the NW does not have a LC at this point, it might actually be possible. In It For The Tank posted:If the wildlings had been let through the Wall without the more truculent and vicious people like Varamyr and Harma being killed first, there would have been chaos on the south side of the Wall. Do you think someone like the Weeper could be trusted to play nice? I don't. Mance made this clear in his offer, and Jon still considered it. The North is pretty large after all. The Sharmat posted:Yeah there's a lot of parallels between Stannis showing up and saving the Night's Watch rear end and Theon having his dick cut off, if you think about it. This, unironically.
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Mar 5, 2015 02:51
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Blind Melon posted:Stannis coming to the wall creates more problems than it solves. What problems does it create that are more severe than the wildlings threatening the Wall, the realm's main defense against the Others? Or that the wildlings were distracting the Night's Watch from mobilizing against the Others? Or that the wildlings were bolstering the power of the Others by providing fodder for wights? Stannis' arrival dispersed the wildlings (meaning they weren't congregated on the Wall's doorstep and easy pickings for the Others), killed many of the more militant widlling chieftains, and the consequences of his victory meant that the thousands of wildlings were able to cross the Wall to safety without threatening the realm. I don't see how that is at all worse than an alternative hypothetical in which the wildlings overwhelm the Night's Watch, break through the Wall, and surge into the vulnerable lands of the North. This is the only other possibility because Jon would never be able to engineer a truce between the Night's Watch and the wildlings, which is something Jon recognized, based on his desperate ideas to destroy the horn. quote:We do not actually know that the battle would have continued. It is likely. It is very likely. It was not certain, and for the first time there was the possibility of a happy ending, though admittedly a slim one. It is certain. There is no chance of the old guard negotiating with wildlings; their prejudices are too deeply ingrained. Jon lacked any say in the matter, and was thinking of destroying the horn because he knew it would be useless to try and convince Slynt and Thorne (as if he would even get the chance before being prepped for execution). Jon had no political power or support other than Aemon at this time and was considered a probable traitor. Just hours before, the Night's Watch had been engaged with a vicious battle against the wildlings, and popular men like Donal Noye had been killed. Trying to rally the brothers against Slynt and Thorne while their grief and hatred is so fresh would be a fool's cause (again, as if Jon would even be given the opportunity). quote:Except if Jon can find a way around his superior officers. Given that the NW does not have a LC at this point, it might actually be possible. That's a big drat if, and no it wouldn't be possible. Jon can't exactly kill Slynt and Thorne without proving himself a traitor and he lacks the political power (and skill) to outmaneuver them. Remember, Sam isn't around to play the different factions off one another and provide Jon with the popular support he needed to become LC and make decisions like that. Jon would just be one guy - whose loyalties are very much in question - making the absurd suggestion that they should let the wildlings through the Wall. Thorne, Slynt, and most people are also unlikely to take Mance's bluff seriously, so warnings about the Horn are likely to be met with ridicule before Jon is dropped off the top of the Wall. quote:Mance made this clear in his offer, and Jon still considered it. The North is pretty large after all. He considered it but seemed to decide that it was a lost cause, based on his thoughts about trying to destroy the horn. And even if he went for it: Jon has no say in whether the offer will be accepted, and he has no chance in convincing others to violate what was considered the most basic component of the Night's Watch oaths. It wasn't until Jon became LC that he was able to begin reinterpreting the Night's Watch's oaths and playing rule lawyer with the definition of "realms of men". Even then, his decision was met with protest and suspicion. If Jon tried to pull that poo poo without the authority and protection afforded him by his post as LC and before the wildlings had been pacified by Stannis, he would be condemned as a traitor and killed. In It For The Tank fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Mar 5, 2015 |
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Mar 5, 2015 03:48
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meristem posted:That would be narratively satisfying to you? For me, it would be far more satisfying if Jon and Daenerys both died fighting the Others (and the throne went to Shireen married to Rickon in a War of the Roses ending). 
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Mar 5, 2015 12:20
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Right after Damphair heals her of her incredibly dry skin.
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Mar 5, 2015 12:35
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Stannis is not gonna have a happy ending in any form I think, including his daughter somehow being Queen.
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Mar 5, 2015 16:00
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Grendels Dad posted:Right after Damphair heals her of her incredibly dry skin. picturing Aeron in a moisturizer commercial now, thanks for that
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Mar 5, 2015 16:15
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loquacius posted:picturing Aeron in a moisturizer commercial now, thanks for that "Water is the essence of wetness!"
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Mar 5, 2015 19:56
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*Drowns a model in moisturizer then resuscitates her*
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Mar 5, 2015 20:25
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No Godless skin can withstand my coconut and aloe extract.
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Mar 5, 2015 21:08
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What is moist may never dry.
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Mar 5, 2015 21:13
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make seasonal dryness pay the iron price
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Mar 5, 2015 21:29
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Spun Dog posted:"Water is the essence of wetness!" and the proof for the mermen theory keeps piling up
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Mar 5, 2015 23:32
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I still can't believe so many people didn't get that a guy who spends his entire life walking in and out of the ocean had the nickname "damp hair"
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Mar 6, 2015 00:35
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The Sharmat posted:Stannis is not gonna have a happy ending in any form I think, including his daughter somehow being Queen. Yea... Melisandre is totally sacrificing Shireen at some point.
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Mar 6, 2015 00:58
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Nihonniboku posted:Yea... Melisandre is totally sacrificing Shireen at some point. So when exactly did Stannis cross the line from "contender for the throne" to "vessel for Melisandre's weird ambitions"? Because burning your own daughter alive has to be the very far end of where you could draw that line.
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Mar 6, 2015 01:21
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paco650 posted:So when exactly did Stannis cross the line from "contender for the throne" to "vessel for Melisandre's weird ambitions"? Because burning your own daughter alive has to be the very far end of where you could draw that line. Hopefully that will be the thing that pushes him over the edge and ends the weird relationship with Melisandre.
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Mar 6, 2015 01:23
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I could see Stannis pulling an Agamemnon if his cause got hopeless enough, but that would be the effective end of him as a sympathetic character.
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Mar 6, 2015 01:52
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I started re-watching the series, beginning with Season 2, and man I forgot how much I hated Catelyn Stark for being so weak with the "Kingslayer" and letting Jaime go. Am I the only one who dislikes her character for the choices she makes in the show (not only the ones involving Jaime?) MarksMan fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Mar 6, 2015 |
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Mar 6, 2015 02:44
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She lets Jaime go in the books as well.
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Mar 6, 2015 02:50
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MarksMan posted:I started re-watching the series, beginning with Season 2, and man I forgot how much I hated Catelyn Stark for being so weak with the "Kingslayer" and letting Jaime go. Am I the only one who dislikes her character for the choices she makes in the show (not only the ones involving Jaime?) She is guilty of being the most boring one-note POV character in the first 3 novels. Literally nothing she does is interesting, and in the grand scheme of things, enables far worse things to happen all around her and especially to Robb, a loving 16-year-old boy on the warpath.
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Mar 6, 2015 03:04
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Beeez posted:She lets Jaime go in the books as well. I found it much more sympathetic in the books as she believes it's the only option to free her daughters after her sons bar Robb have just been murdered. It's still a dick move but at least you could see where she was coming from. A lot of motivations in the show are quite lame though, their lack of planning for future seasons has hurt them in that they devote time to setting up events that never happen and then have little time to give strong enough set up for what does happen. One of my favorite things about the books are that (to a lesser extent than most stories) characters don't just act to push the plot along, their actions have believable motivations and they seek goals (sometimes emotional, but goals) through their actions.
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Mar 6, 2015 03:21
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In It For The Tank posted:What problems does it create that are more severe than the wildlings threatening the Wall, the realm's main defense against the Others? Considering that this started with me stating that Stannis' arrival was in no way heroic, and this discussion has led to this... I think I am going to bow out. I will respond to this however, since I haven't already. Stannis claims to be the true King. This creates problems when he is hanging out at the wall. It puts the NW squarely between a rock and a hard place, with literally no good decisions left to make. Sure, it solves the immediate threat of the wildlings, but it creates the new bigger problem of having to placate Stannis without pissing off the entire South. In It For The Tank posted:He considered it but seemed to decide that it was a lost cause, based on his thoughts about trying to destroy the horn. And even if he went for it: Jon has no say in whether the offer will be accepted, and he has no chance in convincing others to violate what was considered the most basic component of the Night's Watch oaths. It wasn't until Jon became LC that he was able to begin reinterpreting the Night's Watch's oaths and playing rule lawyer with the definition of "realms of men". Even then, his decision was met with protest and suspicion. If Jon tried to pull that poo poo without the authority and protection afforded him by his post as LC and before the wildlings had been pacified by Stannis, he would be condemned as a traitor and killed. Again, Jon had not come to any decision when Stannis arrives. He is still weighing his options, and that is made abundantly clear. This paragraph is precisely why I say Stannis's arrival wasn't heroic at all. Val watching Stannis' men wreck the camp and asking why they are doing this makes it abundantly clear that Stannis' arrival is not some hero showing up to save the day. We can have our conversation, and pick apart the meaning of the scene, and it has been interesting, but again, this started with me making the claim that the arrival was not presented as heroic, which it very clearly is not, and we have gone far far afield of that. As an aside, Jon would die to destroy the horn regardless of any other circumstance. Blind Melon fucked around with this message at 03:31 on Mar 6, 2015 |
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Mar 6, 2015 03:27
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