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Sotar posted:I actually finished the whole thing but didn't make any sense of it. Same. Apparently the dude is complaining about rotations? Or formats? Because it's super likely that you'll go to your LGS with your kitchen table deck and have your opponent casually throw a Lotus against you.
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Mar 12, 2015 23:13
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I kinda get a few of the criticisms levied, but yeah, it loses luster when it's inaccurate/confused about rotation and also is coming from a Warhammer player.  I fully admit that I quit in RAV/TSP standard because I was tired of getting my poo poo ruined at FNM by "netdecked" (I've since gotten over using that as a nasty epithet, but it's the most accurate term) Dredge and Dragonstorm decks while I couldn't even afford shocklands (and I didn't/still don't enjoy the art of trading up to target pieces). But in my older, mildly wiser age now, I know that's on me, not the game. I wish Magic was cheaper to get into at a decent level, but I can still enjoy watching due to all the online content nowadays, so meh.
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Mar 12, 2015 23:17
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Irony Be My Shield posted:It seems weird to talk about Myth Realized being weak to removal because it's gotta be one of the most resilient cheap "creatures" to kill in standard. I'm still not sure if it's good in general though. It will take a good amount of time before it becomes at all worthwhile even if you're casting one noncreature per turn (admittedly good rebound spells would help here) and it's pretty godawful if you play it any time after turn one. It can also be chumped if you manage to finally get it online. I'm not entirely convinced by the argument that its super resilient since only dies to removal when its doing anything that actually affects the board state. I think it will see play, but I don't think its an awesome control finisher or anything. Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Mar 12, 2015 |
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Mar 12, 2015 23:19
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Fiend Computer posted:Also they obviously have never seen a RDW list. I made mine for 50.
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Mar 12, 2015 23:20
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I wish I could change my name to Galvanized Obsidian Dildo of Torment
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Mar 12, 2015 23:20
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:So I was idly browsing one of the warhams threads since I'm enjoying the freude about how it's currently melting down and came across the following contrast someone made between GW+Warham to WotC+Magic. As a new magic player, I have found most people at tournaments and events very friendly and helpful, even giving me stacks of cards they didn't want just to get me started. However, I have also run into people that totally make me want to stop playing entirely. Like a guy at my first Standard event that spent the entire match complaining about the deck I brought to "casual weekday magic," nevermind that I also payed 5 dollars just like he did, gave my DCI number, and was playing a totally legal deck, Sultai Superfriends/Control. (Not well either!) I remember thinking "This is my first standard event ever, I've never met this guy, and he's just acting all offended. Does he not want more new magic players to show up?" The people who say spikes and netdecking by spitting it out of their mouth like a curse seem like elitist assholes annoyed people aren't enjoying the game the right way. I like Standard as a concept, with just the newer sets, because looking into something like Modern or Legacy is super intimidating. I learned to play as a kid but didn't seriously start until a month ago and getting into one of those just seems daunting. A few standard rotations under my belt though, and I can see that being much more interesting. Also as an adult with an actual job that gives me disposable income, the entire game is way more appealing than it was as a kid. Also Dragons of Tarkir sounds cool, because there are dragons in it. Apparently most of the dragons aren't actually super good, but still, dragons! I primarily started playing because my roommates were playing and when I went to my first draft I got an Ugin (hence the sultai superfriends) and was having enough fun to go buy some cards at that point.
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Mar 12, 2015 23:21
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Fiend Computer posted:Yeah, anyone who says standard is expensive, and then goes and plays warhammer, is obviously allowing the point fly over their head. Also  at someone playing warhammer and crying about pay-to-win.
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Mar 12, 2015 23:22
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The problem isn't Legacy decks vs Kitchen Table, really A few years ago a friend and I brought our kitchen table decks into the local store and got stomped by a standard deck (late innistrad, I think). After a few games, when it was clear our decks didn't stand a chance and the local magic master got bored he suggested we upgrade our [random-vanilla-5cmc-green-guy] to Thragtusk. My friend and I rolled our eyes at him. Obviously Thragtusk was a superior card in that slot, but we weren't up for spending $20 on one card at the time. Those interactions happen all the time, I'm sure. But that didn't have any negative effect on all the table games my friend and I had played before going to the store. We had already invested a lot of time and money into the game, and weren't exactly thrown off by it. Magic is expensive. It's not necessarily less fun when you want to play but don't want to spend $20 on Thragtusks
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Mar 12, 2015 23:22
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alphabrawl posted:I wish I could change my name to Galvanized Obsidian Dildo of Torment I hate it when my homebrew username loses to a bunch of netnamed bullshit by people with money to burn
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Mar 12, 2015 23:23
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deftest posted:Magic is expensive. It's not necessarily less fun when you want to play but don't want to spend $20 on Thragtusks On the other hand, it very well can be. The LGS I played at back when I did was super competitive, and coming to FNM and getting blown out 0-4 every week is kind of a downer. I seem to remember there being something about how they handled promos that incentivized placing better to have a better shot, which was also a drag, but it's been years.
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Mar 12, 2015 23:25
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Kyrosiris posted:On the other hand, it very well can be. The LGS I played at back when I did was super competitive, and coming to FNM and getting blown out 0-4 every week is kind of a downer. I seem to remember there being something about how they handled promos that incentivized placing better to have a better shot, which was also a drag, but it's been years. It would suck if the only place you can play is FNM and the only FNM available is super competitive but I really hope this isn't the case very often.
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Mar 12, 2015 23:27
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What would you guys recommend for a newer player as a deck that is relatively inexpensive but still competitive at a typical FNM in the current standard? Or at least will potentially still be competitive after Dragons of Tarkir. I like my Sultai deck but as someone else told me in this thread, it does seem like it requires a ton of decision making that I'm still really bad at as a new player.
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Mar 12, 2015 23:28
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rabidsquid posted:It would suck if the only place you can play is FNM and the only FNM available is super competitive but I really hope this isn't the case very often. I dunno that's basically the case for some people in terms of schedule/location.
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Mar 12, 2015 23:29
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rabidsquid posted:It would suck if the only place you can play is FNM and the only FNM available is super competitive but I really hope this isn't the case very often. Yeah, I'm not trying to extrapolate my experiences to anyone else or use it as a condemnation of Magic in general (though I did at the time - that was me being a dumb 20 year old). Just saying that for me, there were definitely periods of "man, if I had more cash to spend on The Good Cards I could win and have more fun but I don't  ".Pre-releases were always fun though, but those tend to happen at the Fort Worth Convention Center around here, which is annoying to get to without a car as a Dallasite.
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Mar 12, 2015 23:29
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I can't think of any hobby I have that is not expensive as poo poo: Magic is obviously expensive (and I play both paper and MODO so there's that), either limited or constructed, really. Electric guitar is expensive as poo poo, although on the plus side, they almost literally never depreciate beyond a certain point in value if you invest in good quality equipment and don't buy things brand new. Golf costs about $10-15 just to practice for half an hour. Homebrewing beer literally has its own goddamn smiley on this loving forum, and its: 
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Mar 12, 2015 23:30
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That entire rant is a guy trying to justify his expensive Warhammer habit. That or a Magic player hosed his girlfriend but I'm pretty sure that is literally an impossible situation.
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Mar 12, 2015 23:30
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Dohaeris posted:What would you guys recommend for a newer player as a deck that is relatively inexpensive but still competitive at a typical FNM in the current standard? Or at least will potentially still be competitive after Dragons of Tarkir. I like my Sultai deck but as someone else told me in this thread, it does seem like it requires a ton of decision making that I'm still really bad at as a new player. A RDW, like I mentioned. I made mine for 50 bucks including stokes, and while it looks like Dragons will be a real midrangy, RDW will probably have good match ups. Edit: do note I don't run rabblemasters though, so that drops the cost by quite a lot.
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Mar 12, 2015 23:31
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The mono black humans deck is also pretty straightforward and easy on your budget. RDW is just straight up better right now but this deck is pretty fun.
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Mar 12, 2015 23:34
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Dohaeris posted:What would you guys recommend for a newer player as a deck that is relatively inexpensive but still competitive at a typical FNM in the current standard? Or at least will potentially still be competitive after Dragons of Tarkir. I like my Sultai deck but as someone else told me in this thread, it does seem like it requires a ton of decision making that I'm still really bad at as a new player. Mono-red is your usual go to for cheap decks. You can start off with a cheap sligh budget build and then add in stuff like Rabblemaster and Outpost Siege or Stormbreaths or what have you later.
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Mar 12, 2015 23:34
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Yeah and RDW is pretty resilient. It may not be top-tier but as long as there are aggressive red creatures and efficient burn spells it will be a deck that can have decent games. Plus you can laugh at the people who spent lots of money to get lands that hurt them and slow them down Angry Grimace posted:I'm not entirely convinced by the argument that its super resilient since only dies to removal when its doing anything that actually affects the board state.
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Mar 12, 2015 23:35
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Cernunnos posted:Theros was 101:60:53:15 with 249 cards total (20 Basics). They recently moved from 60 to 80 uncommons for all large sets. I think it was in M14 that they switched up. It's annoying in some ways, because you're far less likely to get multiples of any cool build-around-me uncommons.
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Mar 12, 2015 23:38
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Does anyone have any recommendations on recent duel decks for casual play? My girlfriend is interested in playing and I dug out an old 30 card intro deck for both green and red, and we've played a few games with those but they're both unevenly matched (T3 centaur courser vs a deck that is entirely 1/1 and 2/1 goblins with Shocks is lame) and will quickly grow boring as poo poo. I'm hoping to like buy Elspeth/Kiora and 1-2 other duel deck packages (I think the local shop has Jace vs Vraska and some Mardu Wardude vs Something? Speed vs Cunning?) so we can have a few different "evenly paced" matches and she can figure out what she likes about those decks, then we'll take her to the Magic Origins Pre-Release, wherein she can crush some people who underestimate her due to her vagina-ownership and then she'll have the competitive bug and we can play Legacy or Modern together by Christmas
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Mar 12, 2015 23:45
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Dohaeris posted:What would you guys recommend for a newer player as a deck that is relatively inexpensive but still competitive at a typical FNM in the current standard? Or at least will potentially still be competitive after Dragons of Tarkir. I like my Sultai deck but as someone else told me in this thread, it does seem like it requires a ton of decision making that I'm still really bad at as a new player. AlternateNu posted:DTK Standard Mono-R DAGRONS.dec! It's goofy but sensible. Aside from the Stokes and Strombreaths this will be fairy cheap and I'm sure you can find something to replace them with. The Brewhaus is a pretty good place to find a starting point or shell for a deck that you might want to play.
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Mar 12, 2015 23:47
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mr. mephistopheles posted:That entire rant is a guy trying to justify his expensive Warhammer habit. It's funny how different the two games are handled. Wizards is very open about its process, and prices are generally stable (boosters have been 4 euros here in Greece since at least Scourge, probably before that even). Cards are cards, outside of the rare major rules updates (damage on the stack, maybe the legendary updates?) their functionality is and will be the same. Bolt won't be errata'd to a Shock, or a Lightning strike in Magic Origins. Meanwhile, GW does other tricks, like selling a box for the same price, and halving the number of guys in it. I'm not too familiar with GW, but I feel that Magic's model is not a bad one, even with its issues (Reserved List etc), and that Wizards really doesn't neglect any part of its customer base, from the kitchen table, to competitive Commander, to Legacy players. Another big thing of Magic is how easy it is to get in. Warhammer (to continue the comparison) requires a hefty buy in (presuming new product), and you have to risk it with painting it and whatnot, not to mention buying a rulebook (just baffling). In Magic, you can go to your FLGS, get the free Intro Pack, learn to play, and get an Event Deck, all for, what, 20$? Serperoth fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Mar 12, 2015 |
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Mar 12, 2015 23:48
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There's a pretty large number of casual Magic players that tournament players don't ever see. I know several people who've never been to any Magic tournament or club, and have never read anything on the internet about Magic, and to them owning a Magic deck is just like owning a Scrabble board to pull out and play occasionally. Most of them spend no money on Magic, as their decks are built out of draft leavings from their competitive friend. Then there are the people who don't sell their Magic cards or play in tournaments, but once every new set they buy a box, sit down, and crack every pack.
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Mar 12, 2015 23:51
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Serperoth posted:I'm not too familiar with GW, but I feel that Magic's model is not a bad one, even with its issues (Reserved List etc), and that Wizards really doesn't neglect any part of its customer base, from the kitchen table, to competitive Commander, to Legacy players. Not actually being ironic there. Sure they are creating purposeful scarcity to get us to invest more and yadda yadda but ultimately they seem to try and be as fair as possible about how they dole this poo poo out. It's probably a consequence of most of the designers being old magic pros. Basically that rant was kind of hilarious. Chamale posted:There's a pretty large number of casual Magic players that tournament players don't ever see. I know several people who've never been to any Magic tournament or club, and have never read anything on the internet about Magic, and to them owning a Magic deck is just like owning a Scrabble board to pull out and play occasionally. Most of them spend no money on Magic, as their decks are built out of draft leavings from their competitive friend. Then there are the people who don't sell their Magic cards or play in tournaments, but once every new set they buy a box, sit down, and crack every pack. Twiddy fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Mar 12, 2015 |
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Mar 12, 2015 23:54
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I'd recommend just getting a generic mono-red list to start with. Something like this deck is pretty OK and the only remotely expensive cards in the maindeck are Stoke the Flames and Outpost Siege. From there you'll want to get Eidolons and a couple of Rabblemasters but that can wait a bit.
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Mar 12, 2015 23:56
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Chamale posted:There's a pretty large number of casual Magic players that tournament players don't ever see. I know several people who've never been to any Magic tournament or club, and have never read anything on the internet about Magic, and to them owning a Magic deck is just like owning a Scrabble board to pull out and play occasionally. Most of them spend no money on Magic, as their decks are built out of draft leavings from their competitive friend. Then there are the people who don't sell their Magic cards or play in tournaments, but once every new set they buy a box, sit down, and crack every pack. All those wasted drafts...
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Mar 12, 2015 23:56
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deftest posted:The problem isn't Legacy decks vs Kitchen Table, really
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Mar 12, 2015 23:57
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This is an observation I've made on miniature gaming vs Magic in the past, albeit (I think) usually in the GW threads rather than the Magic threads: The economics of both games have things that are hosed up, but in different ways. They're almost like the yin and yang of each other. With miniature games like Warhammer, the game company is pretty much always willing to sell you the pieces that you need to play the game. If I need an Abaddon the Despoiler, Games Workshop will sell me a brand-new one, right now, this very moment. This isn't actually the smart way to buy one, but more on that in a minute--the point is that there's no artificial scarcity in that sense to drive prices up. And units for the game don't go "out of print" per se. There might be a specific design of miniature from years ago that's out of production and is a collector's item whose value has risen by hundreds of dollars due to its scarcity, but you don't have to have that exact miniature to represent that unit. Like if the miniature is "Space Marine Captain with Power Fist" you don't have to have the one from 1987 or whatever; there is one currently in production that you can buy new. It's like if the reserve list didn't exist and you had a mint Alpha Black Lotus that the collectors could go after, but you could also buy a lovely white bordered modern artifact frame one for $10 and play the game with that. Or if you were allowed to make high-quality proxies and use them in tournaments, which is analogous to making your own space marine captain out of parts. On the other hand, if you want to buy used miniatures, then aside from the aforementioned collector's items, it's generally much cheaper to do. You can go on eBay and pick up used warhammer models for half or less the price. They'll probably require some refurbishment if you want them to look good, but they'll be functional no matter what. Leperflesh in the GW death pool thread was talking about how he bought an entire army, that probably had a sticker price of hundreds if not 1000+ dollars, for like $80. That's an example at the far end of the spectrum but it's the sort of thing that can happen. The secondary market works. Magic is sort of the other way around. If what you want is available as a sealed product, then it's usually quite reasonably priced. Commander precon for $34.95? Great value if you ask me. Even booster packs seem not unreasonably priced for 15 cards, the insane variance of rare value aside. The problem is that those are in the minority of practical ways to play Magic, and the cost to play goes up from that case, not down. Miniature gaming's worst-case scenario (buying your poo poo directly from the manufacturer at a fixed price) is the best-case scenario for Magic (and a much more unreliable one, since Wizards doesn't just keep everything perpetually in stock as singles--it's completely against their business model). The two genres are very broadly similar in that there's a sticker price for the game's basic building block, whether that's a tier 1 tournament deck or a 1500 point army whatever, and there are Weird Tips for getting into the game on the cheap. But whereas Magic's weird tips require me to be in the right place in the right time or be willing to play a particular sort of deck, Warhammer's weird tips just require me to go on eBay or to the local swap meet.
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Mar 13, 2015 00:02
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Zoness posted:I have to admit i tried reading that as far as quote:It could just be a cheap interrupt This man has not seen Magic in over 15 years.
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Mar 13, 2015 00:11
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I kept reading for a little longer after, but my eyes started rolling when I read "Magic cards are completely different from how they used to be  " and never stopped.Not that that's wrong, but it was phrased in such a way that it made it seem like it was a strictly bad thing.
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Mar 13, 2015 00:20
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He talks about sets and blocks like the last thing he played was Antiquities and he sort of glimpsed at Tempest. He has literally no idea how Magic works.
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Mar 13, 2015 00:21
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:He talks about sets and blocks like the last thing he played was Antiquities and he sort of glimpsed at Tempest.
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Mar 13, 2015 00:32
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:If you're smart, you can pierce the veil on this poo poo and see that, in a given chapter of their releases, there are x number of 1/1 creatures, and x number of 1 damage interrupts, and whatever else. But if you think it's not a balancing act largely based on illusion, you're probably assuming WotC is smarter than they really are, and that they designed something more robust than it really is. Fuzzy Mammal posted:- You are experienced Magic rear end in a top hat who's been out of the game for a while and wants to get back in. You go to the store. You immediately realize that they're not just releasing nonstop themed sets, and have been for years, they're releasing them in *chapters* now. You buy several things to get an idea of what's up. You realize this isn't really helping you figure poo poo out. You go back to the store. New sets are *already* there. It's only been like... a month! Paralysis and despondency set in. You buy Star Realms for Android. You are much happier. "The most important magic skill is computing the number of standard-legal 1/1s, Magic sucks because new sets are released ever" I don't understand
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Mar 13, 2015 00:34
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:He talks about sets and blocks like the last thing he played was Antiquities and he sort of glimpsed at Tempest. He complains about the introduction of blocks as something that makes Magic more confusing for a new player.
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Mar 13, 2015 00:38
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There are exactly 60 1/1's in standard right now. time to build a singleton deck
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Mar 13, 2015 00:38
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I wonder which of the two makes more money. I have to imagine that Magic's playerbase is far larger than Warhammer's, but the average player expenditures on Warhammer are probably higher. Or not, I don't know I spend a shitload on Magic.
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Mar 13, 2015 00:40
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Angry Grimace posted:I wonder which of the two makes more money. I have to imagine that Magic's playerbase is far larger than Warhammer's, but the average player expenditures on Warhammer are probably higher. Or not, I don't know I spend a shitload on Magic. Magic probably cleaves a lot closer to the 80/20 rule. There are no Warhammer players out there who just dropped $10-30 on models and plays with those (well, almost none, probably). The median warhams player spends a lot more than the median magic player, but there's also legacy players who bought a playset of Revised Tundras because they wanted to play Miracles, and that expenditure is more than most Warhams will spend in five years. On an unrelated note: I started on Pucatrade. I want to send some poo poo out, but I think my display preferences are hosed. The only card in my collection anyone in America seems to want is Battlefield Thaumaturge. That can't be right, can it? Adding Canada adds Oath of Druids only. I have a ton of sweet Standard, Modern and Legacy stuff. Is Pucatrade just not used in America?
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Mar 13, 2015 00:50
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Lottery of Babylon posted:"The most important magic skill is computing the number of standard-legal 1/1s, Magic sucks because new sets are released ever" Wait, 1 damage interrupts? There's never been an interrupt that dealt damage!
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