|
ConfusedUs posted:It's up there for me. Certainly the last really good witches story.
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2015 00:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 14:44 |
|
|
Ambient 'White Court'-iness is more how Murphy watches Thomas leave the room then turns to Harry and says "What? He's pretty." Molly kind of gets whammied by this because Molly has super-empathy, but to most women Thomas is just, well, really sexy and willing. Thomas when he was crashing at Harry's was basically Charlie Sheen in 2.5 men. That's sleazy but it's played for laughs because it's not hurting anyone. (He COULD take away a woman's agency but he wasn't doing that at the time, that's when he was trying really hard to go 'straight'.)
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2015 17:56
|
|
|
mistaya posted:(that's when he was trying really hard to go 'straight'.) So he wasn't going after men either.  Actually, is that a thing or does White Court power only work on the opposite sex?
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2015 02:05
|
|
|
computer parts posted:Actually, is that a thing or does White Court power only work on the opposite sex? It works fine, but the only examples we've seen of it involve two women, e.g. in Turn Coat: Madeline Raith and the banking lady whose name I can't recall, or when Lara ate Madeline. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Mar 12, 2015 |
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2015 02:15
|
|
|
Skippy McPants posted:It works fine, but the only examples we've seen of it involve two women, e.g. Madeline Raith and the banking lady who's name I can't recall in Turn Coat. I cuold have sworn there was at least one implied scene with Thomas and a dude. Not on-camera but implied. Can't pinpoint it though.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2015 02:16
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:I cuold have sworn there was at least one implied scene with Thomas and a dude. Not on-camera but implied. Can't pinpoint it though. The only thing I can think of is when he and Harry are discussing Lord Raith's incestuous domination of the female Raiths. Something to the effect of; Thomas: His tastes don't run that way. Harry: Small mercy. Edit: If the stupid monologue about gay dudes in Cold Days wasn't enough of a clue, Butcher has some really conventional and limiting biases when it comes to homosexuality.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2015 02:19
|
|
|
Are you actually complaining that this series doesn't have gay incestuous rape and that Thomas doesn't use his powers to force strait men gay? I'm sure there's some fan-fic out there for you but I doubt that's what the Dresden Files really needs.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2015 03:07
|
|
|
mistaya posted:Ambient 'White Court'-iness is more how Murphy watches Thomas leave the room then turns to Harry and says "What? He's pretty." Molly kind of gets whammied by this because Molly has super-empathy, but to most women Thomas is just, well, really sexy and willing. This is straight-up untrue. Among the 'comedy' things played is a religious woman who can't help but throw herself at Thomas and a woman who corners him in the place he is working and starts to undress. (She doesn't get fired for it but it's played as being that only because her manager found her attractive..) That is absolutely harmful and absolutely against their will. Like I said, Harry and Thomas literally have a conversation about how he needs to learn to control it. (In particular about the woman in the workplace because Thomas got fired for that particular thing.) The White Court thing isn't "Thomas is really pretty and finds it easy to get laid." It is literally that women can't help but throw themselves at him even at low mojo if he's hungry. All the White Court high mojo does is make it harder to resist. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Mar 12, 2015 |
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2015 03:24
|
|
|
Grimson posted:
I can answer the part about Ebenezer loosing track of Harry, I asked that exact question at a book signing and Butcher said that Ebenezer knew exactly where Harry was and in fact put him there not knowing that Justin was evil. From that answer I would guess that the old man had done such a poor job with his Maggie that he entrusted someone else to train Harry. I didn't ask about the foster years but I would bet that since Maggie had run off and Harry and his dad moved around so much the boy may have been hard to locate and I don't know that Dresden Senior's death would have been common knowledge, especially if it had been foul play, and having Harry in the foster system for a while might have fit into Justin (or whoever's) plans, make him vulnerable. Also Ebenezer was in a remote farm suffering from serious 'I let my daughter down' guilt, I would wager he just didn't hear of Harry's situation until he was a teenager and at that point have him to Justin
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2015 08:05
|
|
|
Dr. MonkeyThunder posted:Are you actually complaining that this series doesn't have gay incestuous rape and that Thomas doesn't use his powers to force strait men gay? I'm sure there's some fan-fic out there for you but I doubt that's what the Dresden Files really needs. That's not the point. The point is that Butcher's handling of the white court shows his biases about homosexuality. The female court seem to be frequently or even always bi. None of the males are. Why? Because chicks making out is hot and dudes grinding is gross. At least, that's what Butcher seems to think.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2015 09:19
|
|
|
Wittgen posted:That's not the point. The point is that Butcher's handling of the white court shows his biases about homosexuality. The female court seem to be frequently or even always bi. None of the males are. Why? Because chicks making out is hot and dudes grinding is gross. At least, that's what Butcher seems to think. It's not news that Butcher is about as progressive on these things as a rock. Not making excuses for him, mind you, since I think it's definitely an area of his he should kinda be more open minded about, but this isn't a stunning revelation. It's another blemish on the series that some might find more frustrating than others. As a reader, it's never really bothered me. Coming online and hearing people talk about it though, I recognize it could be handled better. But hey, what can you do about it? 
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2015 11:21
|
|
|
Dr. MonkeyThunder posted:Are you actually complaining that this series doesn't have gay incestuous rape and that Thomas doesn't use his powers to force strait men gay? I'm sure there's some fan-fic out there for you but I doubt that's what the Dresden Files really needs. Wow, I have no idea how you got that from what I wrote, but no, no not at all. Wittgen posted:That's not the point. The point is that Butcher's handling of the white court shows his biases about homosexuality. The female court seem to be frequently or even always bi. None of the males are. Why? Because chicks making out is hot and dudes grinding is gross. At least, that's what Butcher seems to think. This is what I'm going for. Everything about how Butcher writes sexuality in the series, not just the White Court, speaks to some unfortunate leanings on his part and it's prevalent enough that it can't all be passed off on Harry's latent misogyny. I don't hate the guy for it or anything, and these are hardly uncommon biases for dudes to hold in our culture; I hold some of them. I choose the words 'conventional and limiting' deliberately. Butcher is decent writer with a crazy good work ethic, but because he has such a solid grasp of his craft it makes stuff like this niggle and stick out when it crops up. Shinjobi posted:It's not news that Butcher is about as progressive on these things as a rock. Not making excuses for him, mind you, since I think it's definitely an area of his he should kinda be more open minded about, but this isn't a stunning revelation. It's another blemish on the series that some might find more frustrating than others. As a reader, it's never really bothered me. Coming online and hearing people talk about it though, I recognize it could be handled better. But hey, what can you do about it? Pretty much. It's almost impossible to find a good work of fiction (or even non-fiction) that isn't undercut with at least one weird, discomforting bit of political or social ick. Orson Scott Card anyone? poo poo, if I restricted myself only to works whose authors were devoid of any troubling influence then I'd have almost nothing left! It's entirely possible to enjoy something and still be critical of the parts that are... well, crap. For one reason or another. Hell, I managed to enjoy The Grimnoir Chronicles, in spite of having to pause every few hundred pages to wince at something particularly egregious.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2015 15:04
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:This is straight-up untrue. Among the 'comedy' things played is a religious woman who can't help but throw herself at Thomas and a woman who corners him in the place he is working and starts to undress. (She doesn't get fired for it but it's played as being that only because her manager found her attractive..) That is absolutely harmful and absolutely against their will. Like I said, Harry and Thomas literally have a conversation about how he needs to learn to control it. (In particular about the woman in the workplace because Thomas got fired for that particular thing.) The difference between using naked force and simple coercion. It shouldn't be hard to understand that engaging in sex with someone whose agency has been compromised is extremely unethical. You wouldn't (i.e. shouldn't) have sex with someone who's falling down drunk, and Thomas essentially exerts a passive aura that imposes a smilier state on anyone who looks even a little bit tasty when he's jonesing. It forms the central conflict of his character. He wants to be empathic and a good person, but his default state of being has him committing sexual assault, or worse, on the regular. It's legitimately hosed up and depressing, and playing it for laughs at the beginning of Deadbeat was indeed pretty gross. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Mar 12, 2015 |
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2015 16:03
|
|
|
Skippy McPants posted:
Humor lets us talk about horrific things in a way that playing them straight does not.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2015 16:49
|
|
|
Anias posted:Humor lets us talk about horrific things in a way that playing them straight does not. I... ehh, no? Like, I get what you're saying, but those scenes aren't played in some kind of darkly comic, "oh we must laugh, lest we cry" sort of way. They're presented as wacky high-jinx between mismatched roommates, which is really not the right tact to take.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2015 16:52
|
|
|
Anias posted:Humor lets us talk about horrific things in a way that playing them straight does not. It wasn't using humor to talk about something horrific, it was used for laughs. At an absolute most generous reading of the white court powers would be like slipping ecstasy to someone before propositioning them - their sex drive is kicked into high speed, their judgement is impaired, but they can, in theory, still consent. Even under that generous interpretation that is "borderline indistinguishable from date rape", as Charles Stross put it. It is completely an attack on the person. This is explicitly acknowledged in the text as well. At the start of Turn Coat one of the cousins isn't trying to control the effects of their power, and Thomas points out that it is straight up assault, that Harry would be justified in killing her and the courts and council would view it as self defense, not an act of war.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2015 17:04
|
|
|
Anias posted:Humor lets us talk about horrific things in a way that playing them straight does not. Fried Chicken posted:At an absolute most generous reading of the white court powers would be like slipping ecstasy to someone before propositioning them - their sex drive is kicked into high speed, their judgement is impaired, but they can, in theory, still consent. Even under that generous interpretation that is "borderline indistinguishable from date rape", as Charles Stross put it. It is completely an attack on the person.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2015 17:54
|
|
|
Mars4523 posted:Speaking of which, it just goes to show you how Jim Butcher treats sexuality. Mhari isn't exactly a sympathetic character, but it still takes a fairly modern woman (vampire) to recognize the whammy for what it is.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2015 18:03
|
|
|
Looking back at my copy you're right. It's been a while since I read it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2015 18:11
|
|
|
On that note* the new covers for the next Laundry book are up at Stross' site *see what I did there?
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2015 18:12
|
|
|
I usually wait until I finish the book to share my impressions, and "the author has issues" isn't exactly proper literary analysis... But the whole Cold Days ring-of-gygas "what would you do with corrupting power" rape fantasies are 100% Butcher, not Harry. Butcher is a person who thinks of "what would I do if I had the ultimate power and also no moral boundaries" and skips directly to raperaperape. Harry's corruption should be all about violence. He should be fantasizing about smashing the Fomor, the White Council, any number of corrupt beings with power. That's ostensibly the core of Harry's character - his hatred of bullies, his resistance to anyone with authority, his defense of the weak and helpless (again, ostensibly). The books would really get better if Butcher's hangups stopped bleeding over into the text.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2015 18:52
|
|
|
Xander77 posted:I usually wait until I finish the book to share my impressions, and "the author has issues" isn't exactly proper literary analysis... Well, some of it can be heaped on Harry. He's always been a misogynistic prickbag, and traditionally that manifested as white knighting and low level creephattery. Nothing super overt, but defiantly present and it's not a huge stretch to see that going to a much darker place under the wrong set of conditions. That said, whether it was Butcher trying to up sell the darker side of Harry's id or Butcher's own hangups bleeding through (probably both), he way overshot the mark. To the point that it damages your impressions both of the character and the author. What's so weird is that Butcher has shown he can do better. Harry had similar morality breaks when dealing with Lasciel, but they presented as a much more generalized loss of impulse control and not allrapeallthetime. He reigns it in a bit in Skin Game, but still not to the degree he needs to. Hopefully by the time the next book rolls around they'll both have gotten it out of their system, cause yeah, it's probably the worst the series has ever been on that particular topic.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2015 19:09
|
|
|
Xander77 posted:I usually wait until I finish the book to share my impressions, and "the author has issues" isn't exactly proper literary analysis... So the core of Harry's character is " his hatred of bullies, his resistance to anyone with authority, his defense of the weak and helpless ", but his corruption would not be him becoming the inverse of this? His becoming a bully, who abuses his authority, who preys upon the weak and helpless? The very temptation he feels is exactly this - they cover in the lead up to the party that he could use his authority as Winter Knight to compel Sarissa to have sex with him, or later as Molly's mentor on her. He could use violence to force himself on women like a bully or a thug. Rape is about power, it is about taking advantage of someone weaker than you, helpless to stop you. The whole temptation of rape is all about inverting his character, doing it would be a reversion of his core traits. That's what corruption is. This isn't even subtext, this is explicit text. You are missing the whole point in black and white to try some psychic reading on Butcher.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2015 19:11
|
|
|
Xander77 posted:I usually wait until I finish the book to share my impressions, and "the author has issues" isn't exactly proper literary analysis... I disagree, rape isn't about sex it's about power and control, and the violent rape that Harry starts fantasizing about in Cold Days is all about that power and control. Add Harry's 'old fashioned gallantry' hangups and a corruption of his soul would be the (admittedly icky) rape fantasies he keeps having throughout that book. In contrast, Thomas's rapes are more about control than violence, the White Court is manipulative and behind the scenes, which gives their attacks on humans a different, still as lethal, flavor. The Winter Knight doesn't care about manipulating things, that mantle is all about instant gratification and primal urges. I think those fantasies are absolutely in character for Harry in that situation, and we see him still struggling with the corruption of the mantle and isolating himself until he can overcome it, yes the isolating wasn't entirely his idea but the results were the same.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2015 19:15
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:This is straight-up untrue. Among the 'comedy' things played is a religious woman who can't help but throw herself at Thomas and a woman who corners him in the place he is working and starts to undress. (She doesn't get fired for it but it's played as being that only because her manager found her attractive..) That is absolutely harmful and absolutely against their will. Like I said, Harry and Thomas literally have a conversation about how he needs to learn to control it. (In particular about the woman in the workplace because Thomas got fired for that particular thing.) Ah, it's been a while since I read the earlier books, I didn't remember the details on this. You're right.  re: The Winter Mantle Urges, they are offputting- but that is the point- but that doesn't make them fun to read about. I did like Harry's math method of distracting himself but I don't think the power/rape fantasy thing is going to go away unless he gets out from under it (which may or may not ever happen.) It's a price for power. What I'm curious about is in the future if Molly uses the mantle's urges against him, now that she technically has the ability to do so.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2015 19:50
|
|
|
DSkippy McPants posted:Well, some of it can be heaped on Harry. He's always been a misogynistic prickbag, and traditionally that manifested as white knighting and low level creephattery. Nothing super overt, but defiantly present and it's not a huge stretch to see that going to a much darker place under the wrong set of conditions. Dang dude tell us how you really feel about an NBA sized wizard hating women.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2015 19:59
|
|
|
Ramadu posted:Dang dude tell us how you really feel about an NBA sized wizard hating women. Oh gently caress off, I'm not making some impassioned screed here. Dresden Files is pulpy fluff, but that doesn't mean I'm going to switch my brain off whenever I hit something in the text which is undeniably lovely. I enjoy the series, and I can do that while still being cognizant of its shortcomings.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2015 20:13
|
|
|
Skippy McPants posted:Oh gently caress off, I'm not making some impassioned screed here. Dresden Files is pulpy fluff, but that doesn't mean I'm going to switch my brain off whenever I hit something in the text which is undeniably lovely. I enjoy the series, and I can do that while still being cognizant of its shortcomings. Bro look through your history. That poo poo is like, 90% of what you post in here. I see a post about it and yep, there ya are. We get it, you want gay rape vampires and harry to be gay. There's fanfics for that.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2015 03:06
|
|
|
Ramadu posted:Bro look through your history. That poo poo is like, 90% of what you post in here. I see a post about it and yep, there ya are. We get it, you want gay rape vampires and harry to be gay. There's fanfics for that. Oh wait Butcher thinks dudes loving (or even thinking about loving) is gross.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2015 03:14
|
|
|
Well to be fair, there's only like two male sex vampires, right? Thomas and his dad? The rest were killed by his dad or are on the fear/despair sides of the spectrum. Unless I'm forgetting some of the others? 0/2 doesn't seem THAT bad for a distribution.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2015 05:27
|
|
|
mastajake posted:Well to be fair, there's only like two male sex vampires, right? Thomas and his dad? The rest were killed by his dad or are on the fear/despair sides of the spectrum. Unless I'm forgetting some of the others? 0/2 doesn't seem THAT bad for a distribution. Thats 0%! We demand more gay rape vamps!!!!!
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2015 05:39
|
|
|
Ramadu posted:Bro look through your history. That poo poo is like, 90% of what you post in here. I see a post about it and yep, there ya are. We get it, you want gay rape vampires and harry to be gay. There's fanfics for that. Well, as 3/5 of your posts in the thread consist of attempts to troll me, I'ma gonna go ahead and stick with telling you to gently caress off.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2015 06:26
|
|
|
mastajake posted:Well to be fair, there's only like two male sex vampires, right? Thomas and his dad? The rest were killed by his dad or are on the fear/despair sides of the spectrum. Unless I'm forgetting some of the others? 0/2 doesn't seem THAT bad for a distribution. It's also really stupid. Are White Court vampires really so low in number that they're limited to a handful of families, with each family feeding on its own emotion? Wouldn't that make them incredibly vulnerable to, ah, population shocks? And if so, why hasn't anyone tried to move on them yet?
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2015 06:56
|
|
|
Oookay we really need to drop the subject.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2015 08:14
|
|
|
Fried Chicken posted:On that note* the new covers for the next Laundry book are up at Stross' site Is there a release date? ... Or title for that matter? Not really sure if I'll enjoy a non bob Laundry novel tbh.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2015 08:37
|
|
|
Mars4523 posted:It's also really stupid. Are White Court vampires really so low in number that they're limited to a handful of families, with each family feeding on its own emotion? The White Court vampires in Chicago are probably not the only White Court vampires in the world, they're just the only ones we know about because they're the only ones Harry is concerned with and he's our viewpoint character. With that in mind, it makes perfect sense to me that there's only one family in Chicago that feeds on any one given emotion; they don't share territory because they don't want to compete for hunting grounds/food/etc. tithin posted:Not really sure if I'll enjoy a non bob Laundry novel tbh. Non-Bob doesn't bother me so much. I'm just skeptical because I don't find Mo interesting at all. I'd rather read about Mhari or Pete or basically anybody who is not Mo. Khizan fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Mar 13, 2015 |
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2015 08:51
|
|
|
Mo is a middle aged academic turned government staffer who is also a demon fighting black ops combat sorceress. The only problem with Mo is that her utility as a plot resolver is too great and so she needs to be sent elsewhere before she nigh-singlehandedly destroys all the bad guys. I like Mo, limited presence in the series that she has, so I'm going to be all over The Annihilation Score (out July 7, 2015 according to Amazon). In contrast, I'm not really caring for the book after that which is apparently going to be from the POV of Bob's baby vamp doppelgänger (and Mhari, who's still kind of flat but at least not just Bob's bitch exgirlfriend anymore, wouldn't work at all.) Mars4523 fucked around with this message at 09:24 on Mar 13, 2015 |
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2015 09:21
|
|
|
Mars4523 posted:Who wrote the series so that there are only two male sex vampires? And the reason why there're only two male sex vampires, as it is written in the story that Papa Raith explicitly thinks that raping his children is fine, but raping his male children is a bit too much. This is all on Butcher.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2015 14:43
|
|
|
The Book Barn › The Dresden Files & Urban Fantasy: We Want More Gay Vampires
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2015 14:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 14:44 |
|
|
anilEhilated posted:The Book Barn › The Dresden Files & Urban Fantasy: We Want More Gay Rape Vampires Can we please get off of all of the gay rape nonsense, please? Consider that adding a male-on-male "rape vampire" might actually hurt the equality-situation more than help it. What really boggles my mind is why the White Court is a thing in the DF universe to begin with. The whole thing in this world is free will and what turns someone into a monster--when is someone truly irredeemable? I think we're gonna find out a lot more grey areas as the story goes on. Up until now, the Reds and Blacks were seen as completely irredeemable, replaced by monsters. But that doesn't really jive with the undertones of redemption and choices the rest of the series portrays.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2015 20:35
|
|
