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Blue Star posted:Was Rome the only civilization to have apartment complexes (insulae)? Did other civilizations have some equivalent? Where did the normies live in, say, Athens, Alexandria or Babylon? What about in ancient India or China? Actually Rome was famous for a terrible lack in foresight in its civic planning. They had the Forum which was a center gathering place for business politics trade and entertainment and people haphazardly kept throwing up shacks booths markets all over the place quickly spiraling into a sprawl of chaotic bullshit, over centuries just building on top of layers of rubble like no one gave a gently caress. Consuls and tribunes seemed to constantly struggle with imposing order on the cacophony of unregulated urban development and probably had slums and shanty towns popping up left and right like a bad Sim City map. I bet most of our understanding of residential living is buried under a millenia of rubble and bullshit, but large dramatic building projects designed to centralize the needs of urban life remain as the great public works of the Roman leaders with their names stamped on every brick for immortal dignitas. Perhaps the fires that often spread out of control in Rome provided the only opportunities to adapt the roads and infrastructure and community exchanges into anything resembling the Roman ideals of order and efficiency. And the businesses themselves were probably run by loansharks trade unions syndicates and struggling ambitious entrepreneurs like any evolving cash infused urban enterprise zone. I imagine slave markets were shameful money makers with more value then any other local business too with all that conquering. Smoothrich fucked around with this message at 11:54 on Mar 13, 2015 |
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Mar 13, 2015 11:51
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Blue Star posted:Was Rome the only civilization to have apartment complexes (insulae)? Did other civilizations have some equivalent? Where did the normies live in, say, Athens, Alexandria or Babylon? What about in ancient India or China? Do you have a time frame there? 8th century Chang'an definitely had multiple-unit residential structures.
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Mar 13, 2015 12:24
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Smoothrich posted:Actually Rome was famous for a terrible lack in foresight in its civic planning. They had the Forum which was a center gathering place for business politics trade and entertainment and people haphazardly kept throwing up shacks booths markets all over the place quickly spiraling into a sprawl of chaotic bullshit, over centuries just building on top of layers of rubble like no one gave a gently caress. Consuls and tribunes seemed to constantly struggle with imposing order on the cacophony of unregulated urban development and probably had slums and shanty towns popping up left and right like a bad Sim City map. I bet most of our understanding of residential living is buried under a millenia of rubble and bullshit, but large dramatic building projects designed to centralize the needs of urban life remain as the great public works of the Roman leaders with their names stamped on every brick for immortal dignitas. The irony was that every other place the Romans built was neat and orderly. So Roman colonies were better designed than Rome. I've read Roman architecture being described as "imperial" - they were natural empire-builders. Greek architecture was actually simplistic compared to Roman.
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Mar 13, 2015 13:00
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I think the well designed grid based roads in many American cities reflect Roman aesthetic and sensibilities that our founders admired. Of course they were as you said implemented everywhere but Rome haha. Seems grid based organization was around since 2000 BC around the world but the Romans made it their mission in life to fixing potholes and directing traffic and trade in ways that probably all made it easy to flood the chaotic urban jungle of Rome with the riches of empire. Very interesting stuff to read before I go start my first game of Cities Skylines. I thought like a Roman urban planner as a little kid playing Sim City for the first time.. it's just so logical. Cities that loop and bend and have dead ends everywhere make me anxious and easily lost in comparison haha. "Centuriation" on @Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centuriation
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Mar 13, 2015 13:35
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If we're talking about ways that Caracalla was a poo poo human being then you can't forget his wedding.
Jazerus fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Mar 13, 2015 |
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Mar 13, 2015 14:54
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Caracalla got assasinated while taking a piss on the roadside? Details?
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Mar 13, 2015 15:19
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The sign clearly said no peeing.
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Mar 13, 2015 17:39
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Smoothrich posted:Consuls and tribunes seemed to constantly struggle with imposing order on the cacophony of unregulated urban development and probably had slums and shanty towns popping up left and right like a bad Sim City map. Case in point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JFw8M4PBUI&t=2790s
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Mar 13, 2015 17:56
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Wow she seems great. Here's an article she writes about her archaeological exploration of Rome's ruins to explore the common people's way of life, just demonstrating a few blocks around the Forum as full of evidence of the very modern-seeming nightlife and seedy underbellies of Roman society. Seems to have a lot of this "regular folk existed too and were much like us" perspective that I find lacking in discussions and documentaries. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/europe/italy/rome/9216363/Rome-ancient-life-in-a-modern-city.html Gonna follow Mary Beard on Twitter ASAP and watch her shows. And after googling her, apparently this classicist and TV host once said something positive about immigrants in the UK and has been a victim of death threats and online harassment over social media ever since hahaha.
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Mar 13, 2015 18:14
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Grand Fromage posted:The sign clearly said no peeing. 
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Mar 13, 2015 18:18
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Smoking Crow posted:It's cool how the people Europeans thought were lesser had safer and cleaner cities than them So, like people in New Jersey today?
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Mar 13, 2015 19:26
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new jersey is the direct descendant of the byzantine empire
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Mar 13, 2015 19:44
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New Jersey: Sixth Rome
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Mar 13, 2015 19:49
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Which Rome are we on now, anyway? Are there still a bunch of Eastern European governments that claim descendance? I think Romania was one.
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Mar 13, 2015 19:50
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Noctis Horrendae posted:Which Rome are we on now, anyway? Are there still a bunch of Eastern European governments that claim descendance? I think Romania was one. Russia is the big one, the President of Russia gets the Byzantine double-headed eagle on his coat of arms
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Mar 13, 2015 19:56
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Smoking Crow posted:Russia is the big one, the President of Russia gets the Byzantine double-headed eagle on his coat of arms Well, that makes some degree of sense.
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Mar 13, 2015 20:31
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Noctis Horrendae posted:Which Rome are we on now, anyway? Are there still a bunch of Eastern European governments that claim descendance? I think Romania was one. Nearly every European country ever has claimed to be a/the legitimate successor to Rome at one point or another. The Scandinavians are the only lot I can't recall trying to jump on that bandwagon, but they probably did.
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Mar 13, 2015 20:31
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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They did talk about having mare nostrum for a while, does that count?
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Mar 13, 2015 20:34
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Arglebargle III posted:Do you have a time frame there? 8th century Chang'an definitely had multiple-unit residential structures. I think Moheno-Daro or however it's spelled had both apartments and rational urban planning. Definitely the kind of thing someone building an ancient city would consider.
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Mar 13, 2015 21:01
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PittTheElder posted:Nearly every European country ever has claimed to be a/the legitimate successor to Rome at one point or another. The Scandinavians are the only lot I can't recall trying to jump on that bandwagon, but they probably did. I've always gotten a kick out of the fact that the Holy Roman Empire is primarily formed out of the bits whose main claim to fame in Roman times was NOT being part of the Empire.
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Mar 13, 2015 21:09
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From my experience as a transplant in Minnesota and reading of some academics on 'Minnesota Nice' as an intangible phenomenon, the inherited Scandinavian cultural mindset is too focused on surviving harsh winters as a community to become overly egotistical and self-aggrandizing, traits that may be necessary for Roman fetishism to take root. In fact, they seem to have many opposing value systems, leaning to socialism more than cutthroat cronyism.
Smoothrich fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Mar 13, 2015 |
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Mar 13, 2015 21:15
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PittTheElder posted:Nearly every European country ever has claimed to be a/the legitimate successor to Rome at one point or another. The Scandinavians are the only lot I can't recall trying to jump on that bandwagon, but they probably did. I'm more curious about countries that still claim to have some sort of link today.
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Mar 13, 2015 21:20
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Noctis Horrendae posted:I'm more curious about countries that still claim to have some sort of link today. The US has an ideological link. The upper federal legislative house is the Senate and there is a giant painting on the ceiling of the Capitol (another Roman link) of George Washington becoming a Roman God. Most high governmental buildings are in the neoclassical style, so they appear to be Roman. American cities are planned in grid systems, just like the Romans did. While that last one may sound tenuous, remember how many curved streets there are in Paris and London. Smoking Crow fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Mar 13, 2015 |
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Mar 13, 2015 21:21
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Noctis Horrendae posted:I'm more curious about countries that still claim to have some sort of link today. Ever see a Roman Catholic cathedral? They are very dramatic and imposing. That's everyone's real link to Rome. That fear respect and awe of God it tries to instill probably reflects on the divine adulation of the Emperors of Rome.
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Mar 13, 2015 21:24
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Noctis Horrendae posted:I'm more curious about countries that still claim to have some sort of link today. I live an afternoon's walk away from one of the Roman capitals from the Tetrarchy period, so I guess my country has a link. 
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Mar 13, 2015 21:27
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The Newark Cathedral Basilica of the Sacred Heart.. in Jersey.. gives mass in Latin, I've gone before. It's like some scary proto-cult when they chant together in an ancient dead tongue, with all the ritualistic ceremony and towering architecture. Very invoking of power. Archbishops, dioceses, etc all remind me of Roman organization too, since I suppose it was and still is.
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Mar 13, 2015 21:35
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PittTheElder posted:Nearly every European country ever has claimed to be a/the legitimate successor to Rome at one point or another. The Scandinavians are the only lot I can't recall trying to jump on that bandwagon, but they probably did. I think the Dutch are safe. Maybe the Poles too, smugness about Catholicism notwithstanding.
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Mar 13, 2015 22:00
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my dad posted:I live an afternoon's walk away from one of the Roman capitals from the Tetrarchy period, so I guess my country has a link. That link is burried under lots of kebab.
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Mar 13, 2015 22:06
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PittTheElder posted:Nearly every European country ever has claimed to be a/the legitimate successor to Rome at one point or another. The Scandinavians are the only lot I can't recall trying to jump on that bandwagon, but they probably did. Sweden is the risen Atlantis...
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Mar 13, 2015 22:07
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JaucheCharly posted:That link is burried under lots of kebab. I cant really think of anything tastier to be buried by.
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Mar 13, 2015 22:08
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I think the Dutch are safe. Given the political structure of the Dutch Republic I would be shocked if that were true.
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Mar 13, 2015 22:16
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JaucheCharly posted:Caracalla got assasinated while taking a piss on the roadside? Details? He was killed by a member of his personal bodyguard who was in turn killed moments later. There is some dispute over why the bodyguard killed him - either he was upset over being passed over for promotion or pissed off that his brother had been executed at Caracalla's whim a few days earlier. The guy who replaced Caracalla as Emperor - Macrinus - is believed to have masterminded the assassination in any case, so whatever the killer's reason, it's likely he wouldn't have done anything if Macrinus hadn't been whispering in his ear, probably promising him a pardon/promotion/vindication of his brother's memory etc. I would not be surprised if he made certain to have the killer killed too, just to cover his bases.
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Mar 13, 2015 22:39
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JaucheCharly posted:That link is burried under lots of kebab. I'm sure the Romans were big fans of kebab and gyros/doner/shawarma of course the Armenians are superior to all, because they can claim descent from BOTH Rome and the Sassanids. checkmate, motherfuckers
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Mar 14, 2015 00:32
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Arglebargle III posted:Do you have a time frame there? 8th century Chang'an definitely had multiple-unit residential structures. Well, ancient times, I guess. Before 500 CE. Grand Fromage posted:They were not. The very old world, the Bronze Age world, was highly urbanized in a way the Roman Empire just started to return to. Many of those cities had what we'd consider apartment blocks. Sana'a in Yemen has some that I believe date back to around the 6th century. Are you talking about ancient Sumeria and places like that? What did their apartment blocks look like, and how were they run? And to repeat my other question: were there any free-standing taverns, pubs, eateries, shops, etc. in ancient Rome, or were they all in the taberna? And if I was a middle class Roman, could I open up my own tavern/inn/pub/whatever? Were there any taverns and pubs that had special names like the ones today?
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Mar 14, 2015 03:55
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Blue Star posted:And to repeat my other question: were there any free-standing taverns, pubs, eateries, shops, etc. in ancient Rome, or were they all in the taberna? And if I was a middle class Roman, could I open up my own tavern/inn/pub/whatever? Were there any taverns and pubs that had special names like the ones today? Well, Pompeii definitely had them. Little eateries (thermopoliae) sprung up at a lot of street corners. Hot breads, olives, possibly wine? More takeaways than restaurants, mostly, but eating out was a lot cheaper (and a lot more common) than equivalents today. Hell, one was reopened not that long ago as a tourist attraction. If you can, maybe watch Mary Beard's Life and Death in a Roman Town, where an Oxford classicist covers a lot of this stuff. Pompeii's fantastic for this sort of slice-of-life information.
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Mar 14, 2015 04:30
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Obliterati posted:Well, Pompeii definitely had them. Little eateries (thermopoliae) sprung up at a lot of street corners. Hot breads, olives, possibly wine? More takeaways than restaurants, mostly, but eating out was a lot cheaper (and a lot more common) than equivalents today. Hell, one was reopened not that long ago as a tourist attraction. If you can, maybe watch Mary Beard's Life and Death in a Roman Town, where an Oxford classicist covers a lot of this stuff. Pompeii's fantastic for this sort of slice-of-life information. Eating out had to be cheap, because much of the urban housing for people who weren't rich barely had kitchens.
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Mar 14, 2015 04:55
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Nintendo Kid posted:Eating out had to be cheap, because much of the urban housing for people who weren't rich barely had kitchens. So basically Williamsburg
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Mar 14, 2015 05:01
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karl fungus posted:So basically Williamsburg Hong Kong would be a good comparison actually. Blue Star posted:Are you talking about ancient Sumeria and places like that? What did their apartment blocks look like, and how were they run? I am, and I also don't know details. I need to read more about the bronze age.
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Mar 14, 2015 05:15
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Grand Fromage posted:Hong Kong would be a good comparison actually. Hong Kong, New York.. Rome had its roads and Mediterranean colonies to stay connected but those cities like many rich cities have oceans and ports to connect even more. Seems a port city is a better fit for relating a globalized era of cosmopolitan living to the Classical era where people didn't travel across continents. Rome had its lake though. No wonder Carthage had to be destroyed haha. That's a ROMAN lake you fucks it ain't big enough for the both of us. Romans barely could share an office like consul with another person let alone a vast sea of economic connectivity like the Mediterranean. Smoothrich fucked around with this message at 08:13 on Mar 14, 2015 |
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Mar 14, 2015 08:11
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So here's a Chinese question for anyone out there capable of answering - we have a pretty good idea of how the Romans fought in terms of their actual tactics and formations, but do we have similar knowledge on how Chinese armies of the Han dynasty or so fought? Did they rely more on professionals, or militias, or levies, and did they favor phalanxes, pike blocks, shieldwalls, or whatnot? Also, this has been bugging me for a while, but what the heck is a "round" when talking about Chinese duels? Every time a duel goes down it seems both sides keep bragging about "fighting for two hundred rounds," but I've never been able to find a clear explanation on what a round actually is. Related note that - Chinese military stories seem to emphasize dueling from time to time by the commanders and champions of the opposing armies, mostly as far as I can tell as a way to affect morale before the actual battle went down. Did the Romans go in for champion duels, or did they just ignore all such calls for such in favor of a wholly professional armies?
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Mar 14, 2015 11:41
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