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if you work for a silicon valley startup then yeah, otherwise its enterprise software and web dev all the way right?
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Mar 14, 2015 03:52
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Dessert Rose posted:the thing is, at this point you can get by in most programming jobs without ever solving a novel problem Well until you get a programmer union cs degrees are the only thing keeping peeps in they six figgies
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Mar 14, 2015 03:55
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programming is a trade, best learned through experience and apprenticeship. computer science is a discipline of mathematics, relying on manipulation of higher-order abstractions and theoretical consequences. trying to teach them together is a pretty bad impedance mismatch in a lot of cases, and takes more care to reconcile than I've ever seen a school manage really well.
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Mar 14, 2015 04:02
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carry on then posted:sometimes not even then lol i said "maybe" Marzzle posted:Well until you get a programmer union cs degrees are the only thing keeping peeps in they six figgies the band-aid is going to have to come off eventually i'm fine if it waits a few more years for my own personal benefit, obviously (though i managed to land a pretty good job without a cs degree. it takes about as long as getting the degree does, but you don't end up with student loans)
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Mar 14, 2015 04:05
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Bloody posted:i once did cool algorithm lovely matlab -> lovely c++ -> kinda not so bad c++ once lol same. and I wrote a lovely paper about it! oh yeah and it never got out of "lovely code" stage
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Mar 14, 2015 04:06
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Dessert Rose posted:(though i managed to land a pretty good job without a cs degree. it takes about as long as getting the degree does, but you don't end up with student loans) after 12 years of painfully documented experience, you can even convince the INS that you should be treated like someone who has a 4-year degree.
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Mar 14, 2015 04:07
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and the traditional middle ground between theory and trade in this case is having a lot of trouble finding its footing. if a physics program required you to learn how to weld and a weed was taught a bunch of physics how would civil engineering grow as a distinct field? hmmmm that's actually not a good analogy at all. physicists, electricians and EEs?
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Mar 14, 2015 04:09
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Subjunctive posted:after 12 years of painfully documented experience, you can even convince the INS that you should be treated like someone who has a 4-year degree. let me guess: it all boils down to "is making a ton of money"
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Mar 14, 2015 04:10
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hobbesmaster posted:let me guess: it all boils down to "is making a ton of money" no, they don't care about salary at all as it happens. they want letters from employers describing what skills you had to use and what you learned in the job, and then they pay some CS professor to squint at it and say "yeah, close enough" or "no haha gently caress your life plans no immigration for you".
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Mar 14, 2015 04:15
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that must be the one thing in the us that isn't money related
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Mar 14, 2015 04:16
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Valeyard posted:that is definetely an issue here. there is a total lack of CS highschool teachers because of how much money you can make not teaching this is what i plan to do when i retire and i'm kind of surprised there's no social pressure for all professionals across the board to teach once they get ~50+
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Mar 14, 2015 04:35
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Valeyard posted:as I near the end of my degree, the most useful things ive learned over the past 4 years are: this is the point of a Good Education and while you'll realize just how much you don't know once you land your first real job you'll have the mental tools to take it on a good sweng/cs program doesn't teach you how to solve specific problems, it teaches you how to solve problems in general
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Mar 14, 2015 04:38
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• how to pick up new languages in a reasonable time
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you'll also work with older people who had no formal education and learned exactly how a lot of 'programming should be a vocational' proponents said they should and guess what they're loving idiots who are fish out of water as soon as anything new rolls around. which is all the time
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Mar 14, 2015 04:39
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most new cs grads are utterly worthless unless they've done java or c# side projects and even then they're probably still useless. if they were taught a plang they'll have shitloads of bad habits you'll have to break them of before you can even start teaching them how to program
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Mar 14, 2015 04:54
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Necc0 posted:this is what i plan to do when i retire and i'm kind of surprised there's no social pressure for all professionals across the board to teach once they get ~50+ being a teacher is hard and requires skills separate from what made you a good software developer
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Mar 14, 2015 05:38
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Shaggar posted:most new cs grads are utterly worthless unless they've done java or c# side projects and even then they're probably still useless. if they were taught a plang they'll have shitloads of bad habits you'll have to break them of before you can even start teaching them how to program I dunno if any cs grad is going to expect to get a job without doing SOMETHING outside of the bog standard curriculum. Most programs would probably force you to do something to stick in a portfolio as well in case you are extra clueless. Though I guess it would be the students fault if they didn't spend 15 minutes figuring out what the mspst marketable language is
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Mar 14, 2015 06:31
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Dessert Rose posted:the thing is, at this point you can get by in most programming jobs without ever solving a novel problem one in my professional life thus far (10 years) i have constructed a directed acyclic graph and done a depth first search to produce a 1 dimensional ordering another time I decided to write a recursive algorithm to determine whether two railway stations are connected but even on a small regional railway line it smashed the stack so I rewrote it as a loop
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Mar 14, 2015 07:36
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if you're terrible enough most problems are novel though.
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Mar 14, 2015 07:45
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hobbesmaster posted:that must be the one thing in the us that isn't money related lol
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Mar 14, 2015 11:12
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i recently replaced a loop-over-everything-in-a-sorted-list hot loop with a log-time thingy instead, which is about the only cs-ey thing I've done in years. Everything else has been "plug Component A into Component B" or "Make Component C by combining Components D, E, F..." i could even have done this particular problem by plugging the Sorted List component into the Binary Search component, but it turns out that in this particular case just writing the specialized version was much more straightforward than introducing a bunch of wrappers and comparators and stuff to make it work with the generic pre-written component.
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Mar 14, 2015 15:10
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the most novel solution required in an actual Software Company is how to make new features work in the morass of undocumented features and libraries that were added seven years ago and are absolutely critical in their current implementation to the continued function of the product also gently caress off shaggar. i'd teach a thousand college kids Python before I let one suffer through Java because let's face it, most of them aren't going to be serious programmers and I'd rather they learn some foundational stuff about computation and how programs work at a high level rather than have them spit out FuckoffFactoryFactories
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Mar 14, 2015 15:19
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FamDav posted:being a teacher is hard and requires skills separate from what made you a good software developer yeah, this sounds like a worse version of "eventually you become a manager". I would like to teach, though
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Mar 14, 2015 15:26
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Subjunctive posted:yeah, this sounds like a worse version of "eventually you become a manager". it's very rewarding in an entirely non-financial sense
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Mar 14, 2015 15:31
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im going to graduate from uni with a cs degree in 2 months and i dont know anything
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Mar 14, 2015 15:33
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this thread is here for you 
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Mar 14, 2015 15:36
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this thread has been a real esteem boost for me because i didn't realize how many bad programmers there were out there at my level before this thread all though bad programmers were a junior thing and i was one gently caress up away from being discovered
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Mar 14, 2015 15:38
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uncurable mlady posted:the most novel solution required in an actual Software Company is how to make new features work in the morass of undocumented features and libraries that were added seven years ago and are absolutely critical in their current implementation to the continued function of the product yeah if you don't know java you shouldn't teach it nor should you teach python if you think its foundational
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Mar 14, 2015 15:40
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you often have to "suffer" (because it feels like that at the time) through C/Java before you can appreciate the abstraction and magic that Python/$plang is doing under the hood. I mean you can also furiously research poo poo when your in place sort of a hash array starts causing major memory paging and holy poo poo what is going on then you teach yourself what is going on under the hood. but a lot of people won't do that. In reality all of the abstraction that happens between me pressing a key down and having it register in this text box is a loving miracle when you think about it and you don't have to worry about it until it becomes a problem. knowing what to simplify / abstract away until you have to worry about accounting for it is pretty much the definition of engineering. Try to do better at knowing the difference and you will go far
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Mar 14, 2015 16:05
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Dessert Rose posted:the band-aid is going to have to come off eventually wages have been in a slump since the first tech bubble. it's not a bandaid coming off, it's a chronic wasting disease. i don't think we'll ever see developer salaries hit 2001 levels again
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Mar 14, 2015 16:25
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Shaggar posted:yeah if you don't know java you shouldn't teach it nor should you teach python if you think its foundational python isn't foundational, he's just saying he's teaching foundational stuff ie data structures and algorithms using Python perfectly reasonable imho. more so than teaching that stuff in c++ like my school did (they now do it in, shockingly enough, Python)
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Mar 14, 2015 16:31
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java is probably the best language to use to teach data structures cause collections is easy to understand and extend/implement.
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Mar 14, 2015 18:16
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our first year CS classes were taught using Python. in 2nd year they moved on to using Java which is when we actually had classes dedicated to algorithms and data structures. Too many people do the subject in 1st year with no intention of continuing so they can't/won't make it too hard and/or useful
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Mar 14, 2015 18:20
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hobbesmaster posted:python isn't foundational, he's just saying he's teaching foundational stuff ie data structures and algorithms using Python yes. also things like functions, loops, etc. trying to teach that poo poo in Java or C++ is futile because people spend too much time trying to work through the language once you understand foundational algorithms, data structures, and control/organization it's much easier to go into Java or c# or something because you have a much better idea about the questions you should be asking and if you want to go into C you have an appreciation for the easy way
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Mar 14, 2015 18:46
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c combines two really hard concepts at the same time. worse, in the c context, you have to understand both in detail to understand either: 1. pointers 2. malloc/free python elides memory management entirely, and almost entirely erases pointers from day to day use. it's easy to see why programs don't use C as a first language anymore
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Mar 14, 2015 19:03
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Shaggar posted:most new cs grads are utterly worthless unless they've done java or c# side projects and even then they're probably still useless. if they were taught a plang they'll have shitloads of bad habits you'll have to break them of before you can even start teaching them how to program this is why we had a language theory class where we learned all the design decisions that go into making one so all the smart students should have been able to come to this conclusion on their own
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Mar 14, 2015 19:08
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Subjunctive posted:programming is a trade, best learned through experience and apprenticeship. computer science is a discipline of mathematics, relying on manipulation of higher-order abstractions and theoretical consequences. trying to teach them together is a pretty bad impedance mismatch in a lot of cases, and takes more care to reconcile than I've ever seen a school manage really well. and software engineering is different yet
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Mar 14, 2015 19:14
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I think it's easier to teach pointers without malloc than with. for one thing, you can give distinct names to the pointer and its referent.
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Mar 14, 2015 19:15
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segmentation fault
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Mar 14, 2015 19:17
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:wages have been in a slump since the first tech bubble. it's not a bandaid coming off, it's a chronic wasting disease. yes, but before we unionize the salaries are going to have to drop way way more, then they'll go back up some
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Mar 14, 2015 19:46
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as long as we still routinely make six figures no one will think they belong in a union
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Mar 14, 2015 19:47
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