Magic: The Gathering: Megathread: Spoiler Argument Stadium

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Lancelot: May 23, 2006; Fun Shoe

Another thing that really rubs my rhubarb

# ? Mar 14, 2015 19:06

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 20:14

LordSaturn: Aug 12, 2007; sadly unfunny

Legacy R/U - Mountain Island

~ enters the battlefield tapped if you played it from your hand.

# ? Mar 14, 2015 19:06

Fuzzy Mammal: Aug 15, 2001; Lipstick Apathy

mr. mephistopheles posted:

I'm deeply ambivalent to any complaints of 'no fetchlands' or any of that, but thats largely because I don't play this game, but from an outside perspective, I always saw fetchlands as a rather low effort borderline sleazy way to get players to fork over green, I always felt strongly that staple mana lands should have been uncommon and rare reserved for omnicolored lands or utility. I'd much rather that wizards found new and interesting mechanics to drive lands instead of recycling a set of old ones over and over and over as the meta revolves a bit too quickly. But as land mechanics are indeed a very dry design space and theres not much they could do, I can't blame them too much.

Rather, this set is a failure because its namesake dragon theme was tepidly and unambitiously put together, and the other mechanics are rehashed painfully and megamorph is outright laughable. With FRF building on and very much exceeding KTK from a design standpoint, I was actually a bit surprised how underboiled this set was, I was a bit optimistic that a dragon theme could be boldly done in grand style like ROTE was back in zendikar block, that was a bang-up job.

In that regard, I think a lot of the weight of what I'll appraise a set on goes into the mechanics and number of mechanically interesting one-off cards, and I give a lesser but still important attention to what the set brings thematically and flavorwise in new and unique worldbuilding / backstory and its balance. Dragons wasn't terrible from a flavor standpoint, but it didn't really deliver on its potential as a time-shifted khans, instead it just kind of filled in the expected lines about "all khans are now dragons" and a resounding meh was echoed. Theres been worse flavored sets for sure, like the latter two thirds of theros or the entirety of the stinkeroo that was ravnica 2.0. So flavorwise, not amazing, not bad. But mechanicswise, this set is a bloody joke. Thank god at least theres living lore to make me forget for a minute we had an entire cycle of chimney imp dragons and a cyclone of completely identical colorshifted mana rock dragons, not even bothering to add the filler keywords of the former (flying + trample is totally worth the same cost as flying + lifelink, oh yeah!)

I mean one of my complaints going into KTK is that while the delve cards were indeed pushed and some were well though out, it was the most mechanically interesting thing in the set and it was just a reprinted mechanic, so I was a bit meh about it. But now that seems to be spoiling us compared to how rebound was thrown in and butchered just for the sake of limited prowess or something, and megamorph is just, lol, megamorph, I'm going to be bringing up megamorph as a new whipping boy when I review future sets, I can stop hating on infect now

Someone in another thread called this set "+1/+1 counters of tarkir" and they were spot on, hell, this set could have been done better if wizards went the darksteel route and just abandoned the dragon theme entirely and reworked the whole set to put the counters front and center. Even megamorph might have made sense in a set with stuff like modular or interchangeable charge & +1/+1 counters. There aren't enough +1/+1-counters-matters cards to make megamorph remotely justifiable.

Another thing that really rubs my rhubarb is the whole thing where legendary creatures like zurgo got timeshifted instead of retconned out of existence. Flavorwise it sets me off, this whole set is supposed to be a bajillion years in the future after a world changing timeline fork where entire empires fell and it just so happens that the exact same characters were born anyways, just wearing a different hat? Even star trek didn't abuse that trope so hard. I mean, in planar chaos it made sense and was justifiable by the storyline- it wasn't a single forked timeline in the distant past, it was random and numerous splits in space time that turned everything into a messy soup, so it let them come up with riffs on old cards from all around, and that was fairly cleverly done (with some exceptions), but this is like marty mcfly returning to the present to find everyone in the exact same place, just wearing different clothes. They should have stuck with things like places and justifiable zombies like the tombshell and ancient golems and other age-spanning points set out in FRF instead of trying to cross from KTK.

This is awesome. Let's paraphrase.

quote:

I don't actually play, so wizards has zero incentive to please me or care about my opinions in any way. That said, they should make interesting new lands other than ones that just produce two different colors, and make them uncommon too.

This set doesn't go dragon enough, is bad because it reuses mechanics from the last set, and is bad because it changed a mechanic from the last set.

It didn't go far enough as a timeshifted ktk, but at least did better than other recent sets [i do agree rtr block story/flavour was terrible tho]. they should have made the best dragons uncommons.

Why aren't all these rebound cards undercosted like delve was? Why couldn't we have made morph more complicated? I read the white segment of the visual spoiler and all it cares about are +1+1 counters!

Why in this story based around recognizable relatable legendary playable main characters would over a thousand years of alternate history just the same sperm and egg make it together every time? It would never happen that way in reality!

# ? Mar 14, 2015 19:51

mandatory lesbian: Dec 18, 2012

I really don't get why people complain about unrealism, like do they think time travel itself is realistic

# ? Mar 14, 2015 20:02

whydirt: Apr 18, 2001; Gaz Posting Brigade

Tactical Magical Realism

# ? Mar 14, 2015 20:08

Peepers: Mar 11, 2005; Well, I'm a ghost. I scare people. It's all very important, I assure you.

forbidden lesbian posted:

I really don't get why people complain about unrealism, like do they think time travel itself is realistic

Well you see in reality, dragons can't

# ? Mar 14, 2015 20:12

Lottery of Babylon: Apr 25, 2012; STRAIGHT TROPIN'

whydirt posted:

Tactical Magical Realism

Many years later, as he faced the dragon brood, Planeswalker Sarkhan Vol was to remember that distant afternoon when his father took him to discover firebreathing.

# ? Mar 14, 2015 20:21

Spiderdrake: May 12, 2001

forbidden lesbian posted:

I really don't get why people complain about unrealism, like do they think time travel itself is realistic

I don't really get why people complain about abstractions in the rules system being unrealistic when they're hurling lightning bolts and making rats the size of houses, but as it turns out people have different levels of immersion and desire that the system conforms to it.

I will say I don't like the time travel trope of "everyone is back but slightly different!" but who cares, this set's lore is mostly sweet and Sarkhan Vol is the gooniest dork. The duress flavor text really points out what a nit-wit he is. I really wish there were more references to how goofy his understanding of the world is.

# ? Mar 14, 2015 20:35

Antifa Spacemarine: Jan 11, 2011; Tzeentch can suck it.

I am ore upset that Sarkhan is Temur than I am about any other flavor violation. That's just too many colors to represent through his lifetime.

# ? Mar 14, 2015 20:44

Gensuki: Sep 2, 2011

Shaman Ooglaboogla posted:

I am ore upset that Sarkhan is Temur than I am about any other flavor violation. That's just too many colors to represent through his lifetime.

Next Sarkhan is Mono-White after he is compleated by Elesh Norn

# ? Mar 14, 2015 21:02

Alaan: May 24, 2005

His time travel has turned him into an old style walker and he now has access to all five colors.

# ? Mar 14, 2015 21:14

JerryLee: Feb 4, 2005; THE RESERVED LIST! THE RESERVED LIST! I CANNOT SHUT UP ABOUT THE RESERVED LIST!

Alaan posted:

His time travel has turned him into an old style walker and he now has access to all five colors.

I always sort of assumed that lore-wise walkers were similar to players* in the sense that they had access to all five colors of mana but just chose what appealed to them or best fit their style. Like, if Sorin found his philosophy shifting and decided he wanted to start forming mana bonds with mountains and burning the poo poo out of everything, there wouldn't really be anything stopping him.

*Meaning, of course, the sort of stereotypical casual Vorthos who thinks of himself as "a blue mage" or whatever, rather than the practical reality of a lot of tournament players where you end up playing what you think is best for the Grand Prix or whatever.

# ? Mar 14, 2015 21:24

Sigma-X: Jun 17, 2005

Lottery of Babylon posted:

Sure, typed at-will flippylands are reasonable if you're looking for something new to put in Conspiracy 2016 so you can ban the original duals in Legacy and keep the format from being strangled by the reserve list. But they're not a cycle they can just print in standard whenever they want, because the usual criteria for a new land cycle is "can't be strictly better than basics", not "can't be strictly better than alpha duals".

Banning the original duals in favor of a functional reprint isn't going to fix the cost of legacy. Modern has shown that as individual card prices drop the high card but the rest of the cards in the deck rise up.

Also you'd do better to not ban the cards that the entire legacy playing field has to get new people to play. You'd do better to just make the new lands thereby having even more lands in circulation.

# ? Mar 14, 2015 21:54

Defeatist Elitist: Jun 17, 2012; I've got a carbon fixation.

Very excited to see the new limited format. Others have mentioned the interesting change in removal, but I'm also curious to see what sort of affect the proliferation of 2/3s and 2/4s will have on the format (did you know there wasn't a single 2/4 at ANY cost in the entirety of Khans and Fate? I missed giant spider...), even if 2/2s might not be quite as rampant as before.

Defeatist Elitist fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Mar 14, 2015

# ? Mar 14, 2015 22:06

Rimusutera: Oct 17, 2014

JerryLee posted:

I always sort of assumed that lore-wise walkers were similar to players* in the sense that they had access to all five colors of mana but just chose what appealed to them or best fit their style. Like, if Sorin found his philosophy shifting and decided he wanted to start forming mana bonds with mountains and burning the poo poo out of everything, there wouldn't really be anything stopping him.

*Meaning, of course, the sort of stereotypical casual Vorthos who thinks of himself as "a blue mage" or whatever, rather than the practical reality of a lot of tournament players where you end up playing what you think is best for the Grand Prix or whatever.

Its been established that not only can ones colour alignment change, but it doesn't limit you to solely using that colour of mana; Jace can apparently use White and Black mana despite being shown as mono-blue in all his iterations so far, and the Blue Preator, Vorinclex can do similar.

What resources you're willing to use or are aware of using are probably further defined by your personal philosophy/knowledge and how you justify it within that framework, as well as what magic you'll use may also be affected by how well you can understand it, because it aligns with your philosophy. So a Vorthosy Green Mage might stick with green and not use blue because they don't like playing the game in the cunning deceptive manipulative manner that blue requires them.

# ? Mar 14, 2015 22:10

rabidsquid: Oct 11, 2004; LOVES THE KOG

forbidden lesbian posted:

I really don't get why people complain about unrealism, like do they think time travel itself is realistic

Grogs hated non-magical healing in 4th edition D&D because of "verisimilitude." That's right, REALISTICALLY only magical healing makes sense because

Get the h*ck out of here with your Healing Salve MTG, you're loving up the believability of your magical setting for people.

# ? Mar 14, 2015 22:18

Count Bleck: Apr 5, 2010; DISPEL MAGIC!

Rimusutera posted:

Its been established that not only can ones colour alignment change, but it doesn't limit you to solely using that colour of mana; Jace can apparently use White and Black mana despite being shown as mono-blue in all his iterations so far, and the Blue Preator, Vorinclex can do similar.

I don't know if you meant either Jin-Gitaxis, Blue Praetor, or Green Praetor, Vorinclex.

:sigh:

# ? Mar 14, 2015 22:57

mandatory lesbian: Dec 18, 2012

Count Bleck posted:

I don't know if you meant either Jin-Gitaxis, Blue Praetor, or Green Praetor, Vorinclex.

I think he means Vorinclex since green can make mana of any color a lot of the times, but I don't know where that would of come up since I don't remember any stories involving him on the website.

# ? Mar 14, 2015 23:10

Frozen_flame: Feb 14, 2012; Press A to Protect Earth!

MTGSalvation's wiki (Sorry) has Jin-Gitaxias being apparently able to use White and Black mana. It still doesn't provide any proof, though.

Phyrexian Mana is weird.

# ? Mar 15, 2015 00:31

Rimusutera: Oct 17, 2014

Yeah I meant Jin-Gitaxis.

Also, if MTGSalvation's wiki is where I remember reading that than I'm eternally sorry.

# ? Mar 15, 2015 00:37

TheKingofSprings: Oct 9, 2012

JerryLee posted:

*Meaning, of course, the sort of stereotypical casual Vorthos who thinks of himself as "a blue mage"

Does this actually exist

# ? Mar 15, 2015 00:40

Chamale: Jul 11, 2010; I'm helping!

TheKingofSprings posted:

Does this actually exist

The majority of Magic players talk like this.

# ? Mar 15, 2015 00:48

Bread Set Jettison: Jan 8, 2009

red wizard needs food badly *eats cheetos and then picks up your cards*

# ? Mar 15, 2015 00:50

LGD: Sep 25, 2004

TheKingofSprings posted:

Does this actually exist

100%. Just think of anyone you've ever heard bitch about "blue players." Though their psychographic isn't likely anything like pure Vorthos.

# ? Mar 15, 2015 00:52

rabidsquid: Oct 11, 2004; LOVES THE KOG

Bread Set Jettison posted:

red wizard needs food badly *eats cheetos and then picks up your cards*

Please don't make fun of people who like to play Red, they're just trying to field a competitive 72 cent deck like the rest of us

# ? Mar 15, 2015 00:53

Dr. Stab: Sep 12, 2010; 👨🏻‍⚕️🩺🔪🙀😱🙀

LGD posted:

100%. Just think of anyone you've ever heard bitch about "blue players." Though their psychographic isn't likely anything like pure Vorthos.

Yeah, I don't really think that's a psychographic thing. It's just that casual players tend to think of the colors as archetypes unto themselves.

e: Like, competitive players still tend to think of themselves as aggro players or control players. This is just the uninformed version of that.

Dr. Stab fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Mar 15, 2015

# ? Mar 15, 2015 00:54

Bread Set Jettison: Jan 8, 2009

rabidsquid posted:

Please don't make fun of people who like to play Red, they're just trying to field a competitive 72 cent deck like the rest of us

I would never, as I love to play red decks

# ? Mar 15, 2015 01:00

STANKBALLS TASTYLEGS: Oct 12, 2012

rabidsquid posted:

Please don't make fun of people who like to play Red, they're just trying to field a competitive 72 cent deck like the rest of us

Red players tend to be the most handsome, and physically active magic players.

Source: I play red.

# ? Mar 15, 2015 01:04

qbert: Oct 23, 2003; It's both thrilling and terrifying.

SCG currently streaming TRUE REANIMATOR Standard deck that plays Bearer of the Heavens.

Bearer + Rescue from the Underworld or Bearer + Soul of New Phyrexia is a thing that could happen.

Yes.

# ? Mar 15, 2015 01:05

suicidesteve: Jan 4, 2006; "Life is a maze. This is one of its dead ends.

Fiend Computer posted:

Red players tend to be the most handsome, and physically active magic players.

Source: I play red.

Is the requirement playing red or playing mono-red? Because I mostly play red, but I'd never play mono-red.

# ? Mar 15, 2015 01:06

rabidsquid: Oct 11, 2004; LOVES THE KOG

suicidesteve posted:

Is the requirement playing red or playing mono-red? Because I mostly play red, but I'd never play mono-red.

If you play red in a deck with other colors you're the eternal enemy to the true red players, who live closest to the land and are not confined by capitalism.

# ? Mar 15, 2015 01:13

Minority Deport: Mar 28, 2010

So the only double-faced cards in Origins are going to be the Planeswalkers. This means that limited is going to be less impacted than during Innistrad, right?

# ? Mar 15, 2015 01:24

Lunsku: May 21, 2006

Minority Deport posted:

So the only double-faced cards in Origins are going to be the Planeswalkers. This means that limited is going to be less impacted than during Innistrad, right?

Very very very very much less yes.

That said, I thought even during Innistrads DFCs were a pretty minor hassle, however you dealth with them.

# ? Mar 15, 2015 01:27

Dr. Stab: Sep 12, 2010; 👨🏻‍⚕️🩺🔪🙀😱🙀

So I assume that the new printing process means that they can do what they wanted to do in isd, and pack the proxy version of the card in the same pack?

# ? Mar 15, 2015 01:34

Rinkles: Oct 24, 2010; What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?

Archfiend of Depravity as anti GW Mastery tech.

# ? Mar 15, 2015 01:39

suicidesteve: Jan 4, 2006; "Life is a maze. This is one of its dead ends.

Rinkles posted:

Archfiend of Depravity as anti GW Mastery tech.

Dragon Throne of Tarkir for the mirror.

# ? Mar 15, 2015 01:41

Nomadic Scholar: Feb 6, 2013

I cant wait see how they decide to make Jace horribly broken this time. :allears:

If we're lucky maybe they will just make him actually unusable with some wonky condition to flip with.

# ? Mar 15, 2015 01:41

JerryLee: Feb 4, 2005; THE RESERVED LIST! THE RESERVED LIST! I CANNOT SHUT UP ABOUT THE RESERVED LIST!

Nomadic Scholar posted:

I cant wait see how they decide to make Jace horribly broken this time.
If we're lucky maybe they will just make him actually unusable with some wonky condition to flip with.

If you ignore the gigantic bugfuck mistake of JTMS, Jace's portfolio really isn't that offensive.

He's still annoying as a character, but we're getting him in this set one way or another, so I don't see any real reason to wish for him to be unusable.

# ? Mar 15, 2015 01:52

rabidsquid: Oct 11, 2004; LOVES THE KOG

Nomadic Scholar posted:

I cant wait see how they decide to make Jace horribly broken this time.
If we're lucky maybe they will just make him actually unusable with some wonky condition to flip with.

It will be hard for them to make another card as busted as Jace, the Living Guildpact but I believe they can break standard and eternal formats yet again.

# ? Mar 15, 2015 02:13

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 20:14

TheKingofSprings: Oct 9, 2012

Nomadic Scholar posted:

I cant wait see how they decide to make Jace horribly broken this time.
If we're lucky maybe they will just make him actually unusable with some wonky condition to flip with.

Why would you ever want a card to be bad

# ? Mar 15, 2015 02:15

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