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Sakurazuka posted:Okay, they're in bed and what are they doing? They're reading a book. It's still being presented as a chaste or 'pure' relationship, which is a trap a lot of bad yuri stories fall in to. It reminded me of a certain scene from Stone Ocean a lot. Of course, JoJo shout-outs aren't all that uncommon.
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Mar 10, 2015 12:11
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Sakurazuka posted:Okay, they're in bed and what are they doing? They're reading a book. It's still being presented as a chaste or 'pure' relationship, which is a trap a lot of bad yuri stories fall in to. At the same time you had an antagonist telling her that its ok for girls to fool but that she needs to let go already because she's getting older. And Kureha outright rebuked her on that. Its funny though because Ikuhara himself mentioned how some people dont consider it really yuri unless they are having overt sex.
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Mar 10, 2015 12:47
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I don't think I could seriously argue this show isn't yuri.  I just like the relationship side of that sort thing and other than maybe Ginko and Kureha eventually there aren't really any for me to be invested in.
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Mar 10, 2015 13:07
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Kaelan Zero posted:edit #2: oh right, and the recurring use of 'desire' probably indicates significance. The last time we saw it (I think?) was when Lulu kept trying to murder her little brother, and that whole 'desire' motif was associated with the red light circling lulu (though I guess it was a wasp, or something?)[/spoiler] No, Lulu's "desire" thing was that she wanted to keep her status as successor to the beardoms throne because it got her a lot of attention. The bee motif was the idea that she erected her own "wall of severance" to stop people from coming near her. She let the prince in because she actually liked him, but was blinded by her desire. (so she loved/hated him, which is a common thing in this show) She figures out that the love she'd get for being crowned princess was hollow and the only person that actually loved her for who she was is dead. We get an image of a fertile valley, the prince and a dead tree being circled by the bee, which sort of point to this.
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Mar 10, 2015 15:21
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Sakurazuka posted:Okay, they're in bed and what are they doing? They're reading a book. It's still being presented as a chaste or 'pure' relationship, which is a trap a lot of bad yuri stories fall in to. There was a pretty clear postcoital vibe to it. Easily as much as any of the scenes in Yuriika's office, and you ain't going to say those were chaste, idealised relationships, are you? I mean, yeah, it wasn't explicit onscreen sex, but a pair of happy naked lesbians snuggling together in bed is pretty overt. Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Mar 10, 2015 |
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Mar 10, 2015 15:57
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It is only sex if you see a penis go into a vagina directly on screen.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:11
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Yeah, okay, I'm an idiot. 
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Mar 10, 2015 16:43
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Well so much of the language and events are intended to be metaphorical, or at least to convey some deeper meaning about the story, so it's not completely straightforward. It's not a conventional romance set in the real world, like say any of Morishima's original works where havin' sex is havin' sex and love is the immediately relatable human notion, not a weird force of nature or power.
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Mar 10, 2015 17:59
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Sakurazuka posted:Not convinced you're sexy enough, sorry. Shaba da doo
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Mar 11, 2015 04:40
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:It is only sex if you see a penis go into a vagina directly on screen. Darth Walrus posted:There was a pretty clear postcoital vibe to it. Easily as much as any of the scenes in Yuriika's office, and you ain't going to say those were chaste, idealised relationships, are you? This show wouldn't even exist if things were as simple as you imply, though. The sexual connotation is easily possible, but on the other hand I could name countless desexualized yuri couples who could easily pull off 'naked together in bed reading a book with nothing else going on'. There is nothing that points to Kureha and Sumika being one or the other. In fact, while I might be on the fence just based on that, Sumika and Kureha are the only possible pairing to fit the role of a chaste, loving relationship to complete the show's allegorical theme.
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Mar 11, 2015 16:30
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James Bond is never actually seen putting his penis in a woman, so he's definitely a virgin.
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Mar 11, 2015 17:30
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It's Ikuhara. If it seems like it might be/be a metaphor for sex, it's probably sex.Mymla posted:James Bond is never actually seen putting his penis in a woman, so he's definitely a virgin. He is my pure waifu.
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Mar 11, 2015 17:50
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Space Flower posted:This show wouldn't even exist if things were as simple as you imply, though. The sexual connotation is easily possible, but on the other hand I could name countless desexualized yuri couples who could easily pull off 'naked together in bed reading a book with nothing else going on'. There is nothing that points to Kureha and Sumika being one or the other. In fact, while I might be on the fence just based on that, Sumika and Kureha are the only possible pairing to fit the role of a chaste, loving relationship to complete the show's allegorical theme. Them having a sexual relationship does fit thematically, though. This is a world that carefully divides between physical desire and romantic love - bears are predatory hedonists, while humans are held to a brutal purity ideal where physical affection must be carefully hidden. Kureha and Sumika, as an openly gay couple in a happy sexual relationship, were basically painting giant targets on their backs. There's a reason the exclusion ceremonies always had them at the top of the list. On that note, Ekens and Creamer spew  about the cinematography, symbolism, and cultural context of the latest episode. The Ekens review has some cool links, too.
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Mar 11, 2015 18:03
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I AM THE MOON posted:so are the goons who watch this furries, or are they just pedophiles I don't mean to be insensitive of what's gone down in this subforum in the past but I swear if you switch out "let's search evil" for "let's search creepy", this show's themes can be used as a metaphor for ADTRW. I'm to understand that creepy poo poo has gone down in the past, but rather than just letting moderation handle problem cases it seems like everyone is eager to point fingers and find the next scapegoat so that they can feel less insecure about enjoying anime. Am I wrong about this?
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Mar 14, 2015 04:31
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Space Flower posted:I don't mean to be insensitive of what's gone down in this subforum in the past but I swear if you switch out "let's search evil" for "let's search creepy", this show's themes can be used as a metaphor for ADTRW. there is no lol big enough
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Mar 14, 2015 04:35
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It's getting a dub. I'm most excited for J Michael Tatum as Life Sexy. Shaba-da-doo.
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Mar 14, 2015 04:44
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AnacondaHL posted:there is no lol big enough I'm not taking a high road, either. I felt very foolish after getting defensive and jumping on Endorph earlier. I was just throwing baseless accusations because the "this show is bad and you should feel bad for liking it" posting got to me and I lashed out irrationally. So I could just be projecting here. Sorry.
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Mar 14, 2015 04:55
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Space Flower posted:I'm not taking a high road, either. I felt very foolish after getting defensive and jumping on Endorph earlier. I was just throwing baseless accusations because the "this show is bad and you should feel bad for liking it" posting got to me and I lashed out irrationally. So I could just be projecting here. Sorry. It was a post from 5 days ago from someone that posts in FYAD who dropped in to troll. It takes one second of taking a deep breath and clicking Post History to have avoided any of this.
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Mar 14, 2015 05:15
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please ignore the driveby poo poo posting, especially my own
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Mar 14, 2015 09:31
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I have minimal experience with Ikuhara -- watching Sailor Moon dubs as a child, and this, basically -- but I've really been struggling with Yuri Kuma Arashi. I take it he's one of those writers whose work makes far more sense in retrospect, rather than in piecemeal? So even if I'm not enjoying the show even at this stage, things are likely to turn out if I persevere? I'm having a great deal of difficulty caring about any of the characters, beyond the two friendly bears, the plot's confusing, and the sheer lack of fucks given about most of the events by the cast is kind of aggravating. I've having difficulty determining the context and significance of everyone's actions, particularly the phone calls from the Bear Court (why does anyone give a poo poo about these when it's repeatedly been proven that listening to these puts you in grave danger?). There's been a great deal of anti-climax, and it's been quite repetitive at times. Basically, I can't understand the motivations for the cast at any given moment, beyond what they're doing in general. (Though Kureha seems to purely be reacting to everything, and doesn't seem to have much in the way of an objective beyond 'Continue the Grieving Process'). Are these, strictly speaking, problems with the show? Or am I approaching it with the wrong mindset? Should I try rewatching it?
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Mar 14, 2015 13:20
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If you're interested in Ikuhara I'd probably just shrug and watch Revolutionary Girl Utena. At this point Yuri Kuma does not have much to recommend it by IMO.
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Mar 14, 2015 13:30
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Open Source Idiom posted:
Not sure how the bolded is true. The students / society clearly give big fucks over the bear situation. Lulu cares about the outcome between Ginko and Kureha. Ginko cares about what happens to Kureha. I guess you might be talking about the students not being freaked out enough about bears shape shifting, but I guess that's taken as normal at this point? I am not sure of the metaphor behind the court either. My guess is that its "fate calling" / do you have courage to overcome society in pursuit of your goals even if means sacrificing something. Open Source Idiom posted:Basically, I can't understand the motivations for the cast at any given moment, beyond what they're doing in general. (Though Kureha seems to purely be reacting to everything, and doesn't seem to have much in the way of an objective beyond 'Continue the Grieving Process'). Ginko - desire Kureha - vengeance / search for love Villians - lust Lulu - being a great wingwoman students - protecting the herd at the cost of individuals Kureha is reacting becuase the best strategy against magical shapeshifting bears is to shoot them in the face. Quad Cape fucked around with this message at 13:39 on Mar 14, 2015 |
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Mar 14, 2015 13:35
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Open Source Idiom posted:I have minimal experience with Ikuhara -- watching Sailor Moon dubs as a child, and this, basically -- but I've really been struggling with Yuri Kuma Arashi. I take it he's one of those writers whose work makes far more sense in retrospect, rather than in piecemeal? So even if I'm not enjoying the show even at this stage, things are likely to turn out if I persevere? A lot of the events in Ikuhara shows either aren't literally happening or they're happening but the world is a semi-dream world where anything is possible and are about the metaphor and the meaning behind what is shown on screen. Most of his shows also give us an actual story and characters the are interesting on top of that though and Yurikuma is kind of eh at that.
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Mar 14, 2015 14:06
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This is show definitely isn't what I'd call entry-level Ikuhara. His stuff does make more sense once you sit back and think on it when its done, but YKA is (to me, so far) more opaque than Utena or Penguindrum. Utena really is the place to start. It's also the best anime.
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Mar 14, 2015 15:38
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utena is the only ikuhara worth watchingSpace Flower posted:I'm not taking a high road, either. I felt very foolish after getting defensive and jumping on Endorph earlier. I was just throwing baseless accusations because the "this show is bad and you should feel bad for liking it" posting got to me and I lashed out irrationally. So I could just be projecting here. Sorry. no offense dude but if someone making a joke about an anime makes you defensive maybe you should chill Endorph fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Mar 14, 2015 |
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Mar 14, 2015 17:00
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Darth Walrus posted:One example that immediately springs to mind is one of the most iconic and popular yuri shows of the last few years, Puella Magi Madoka Magica, which has a shitload of subtext but condemns its couples to tragic separation without ever giving them a shot at physical, romantic affection. There's the naked space hug in the finale, but that's it. PMMM's spawned a lot of imitators, and most of them follow a similar pattern of not-quite-but-almost-explicit and often tragic lesbian love. Class S is still out there, and still popular. While it's overt yuri rather than Class S, there's also Kannazuki no Miko, which aired a decade ago, but remains enormously popular, iconic, and influential despite its downright weird and unhealthy central relationship, which ticks off most of the familiar old tropes of the genre. From a while ago, but I have some thoughts on this post. For as meaningful as Madoka is to a lot of queer ladies (and legitimately so!) I think that people tend to forget that it’s having its cake and eating it too in terms of actual lesbians vs. lesbian fetishist appeal. It was directed by noted ultra-perv Akiyuki Shinbo, after all, and the girls’ forms are merchandised to hell and back. The convenient thing about leaving something at the subtextual level is that it allows for a broad range of interpretations. People tend to read what they want out of something, and the more people something appeals to, the bigger audience it’s likely to get. Views = cash, and television is a for-profit industry. “Deliberate polysemy” is actually a tactic that entertainment uses to get as wide an appeal as possible. The big US television example of it is All in the Family’s bigot character, Archie Bunker (although he isn’t deliberate.) Half the audience could relate to the character’s racist, sexist, homophobic beliefs, while the other half viewed him as an amusing criticism of middle American ignorance. Both audiences helped make it one of the most popular television shows of all time. The people who run mass media are smart enough to use this. That’s why when something noteworthy in its progressivism happens in pop culture it’s usually only a little bit more radical than the norm. People have been down on Class S a lot but leaving subversive material at the subtextual level is an important shield for a lot of radical media. It’s plausible deniability – you can’t speak openly about lesbianism, but you can depict the emotions associated with lesbianism if you mask them and make a token effort towards maintaining the status quo. People who are “in” (who can relate to these emotions) will get it, and those who don’t will look the other way, ideally. This has been going on since at least the medieval era, judging by my current study of 16th century playwrights. Many comedies from this era (including Shakespeare ones!) are quite subversive in their depictions of class relationships but got a pass because they were farcical and ended with a return to “normalcy.” All of the otherwise gasp-worthy canoodling between nobles and servants happens in the middle, and that was OK because the playwright tacked on a moral at the end. In the same way, girls in Class S works are allowed to dwell on their mutual longing as much as they want until they’re separated or set back on the het in the end. The issue here is that there’s a point when it stops being a shield and becomes a limitation. As homosexuality becomes more accepted in society, mainstream art should become more overt in its depictions of it. It should reject lesbianism for heterosexual male consumption. Yurikuma Arashi is arguing that mainstream yuri needs to “smash the world's shell,” so to speak. The shield of subtext has been compromised, and it’s time to move on. Ikuhara probably has a lot of thoughts about this considering the multimedia juggernaut Sailor Moon became. It’d be pretty neat to examine the relationship Yurikuma’s content has to its own merchandising.
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Mar 15, 2015 03:41
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You don't post much, but you make it count. Interesting thoughts.
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Mar 15, 2015 04:18
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Space Flower posted:I'm not taking a high road, either. I felt very foolish after getting defensive and jumping on Endorph earlier. I was just throwing baseless accusations because the "this show is bad and you should feel bad for liking it" posting got to me and I lashed out irrationally. So I could just be projecting here. Sorry. Maybe its because I have a vague wall of formal infamiliarity where aside from maybe, the two I think posters I know in real life from my city but I feel fairly unable to take anything personally and its very easy for me when I see people who-are-probably-trolls bashing my hobby its easy to just ignore them and then take the dip to dip into a debate whenever there's a precise and solid issue to discuss. The relationship between the meaning behind the art of one show and Japan's imperialistic past was one such issue in the recent Yuusha thread where I could confidently give a reasoned argument to say "Heh, no." What I'm trying to say is if you see someone write something you think is stupid that offends you because its taking a potshot at your hobby just stand back, don't take the risk of feeding the troll and see if someone else handles it. I do agree that some people here take the whole "I'm only watching this ironically I wouldn't be caught dead actually liking it in anyway *secretly buys all the swag*" a little too thick but I just roll my eyes. I don't necessarily know if this is good advice or not or how easy it is to follow but that's my 0.02$.
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Mar 15, 2015 05:13
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Basically don't take poo poo on the internet too seriously, especially on a subforum about cartoons on a comedy website.
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Mar 15, 2015 05:23
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Welp, congratulations, show. That may be the most beautifully insane metaphor I've yet seen for the recurring theme of 'society makes oppressed people contribute to each other's oppression'. I am, of course, referring to the exterminator van with the cyborg bear-powered death-ray.
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Mar 17, 2015 01:02
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I bet those words in your spoiler have never been put together in that order before.
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Mar 17, 2015 01:49
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The cyber bears managed to be cute and also creepy as gently caress. The bear death rays are straight out of a 60's Godzilla movie.
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Mar 17, 2015 01:51
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Darth Walrus posted:Welp, congratulations, show. That may be the most beautifully insane metaphor I've yet seen for the recurring theme of 'society makes oppressed people contribute to each other's oppression'. Ahem, that's cyborg zombie bear treadmill powered lily death ray to be more precise.
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Mar 17, 2015 02:29
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Hey I’m Gabriella Ekens from ANN & I’m expanding on my last post into my next write up, so consider it a sneak preview! Also, thanks for your contributions, Darth Walrus! Some of your posts led me in the direction of researching Class S. I haven’t been looking at this thread for a while so as to not directly rip off any analysis, but it was the impetus.
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Mar 17, 2015 08:53
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Posthumor posted:Hey I’m Gabriella Ekens from ANN & I’m expanding on my last post into my next write up, so consider it a sneak preview! Hey, thanks! There's been some really cool stuff in your reviews, and it's been very useful for helping decode this series. On another note, I just had a sudden, horrible thought. According to Reia's picturebook, the endgame accepted by Kumaria and the Court is for two lovers to destroy themselves and be united in a world 'beyond severance'. Doesn't this sound very like the most infamous socially-acceptable ending for lesbian couples, the double-suicide?
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Mar 17, 2015 12:39
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I already mentioned the symbolism in the mirror scene. The idea is that you prove your love (スキ) is the real thing by destroying the self in the mirror, you aren't really killing yourself its a metaphor for putting your love ahead of yourself. Your reward is the mirror of スキ, キス (a kiss) or the reciprocation of love, which Life Cool basically pointed out in this episode when he mentions that he thought Lulu's intent was to have Ginko get her love reciprocated. Kumaria isn't evil. She's probably not good either. She just is. A metaphorical representation of a natural force. I think there's definitely a biological component to the idea of the worlds being severed, or going beyond the severance. That its not "normal" for the girl and the bear to be together, Kureha says as much in this very episode. And because the biological component for that union is removed then it requires extra scrutiny. Sounds weird, but Ikuhara basically did the same thing with Penguindrum and its "god". The difference there being that it was still between a boy and girl. The outcome was still the same, going against whats "normal" (biological programming, instincts, fate), to love someone.
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Mar 17, 2015 13:44
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Cao Ni Ma posted:I already mentioned the symbolism in the mirror scene. The idea is that you prove your love (スキ) is the real thing by destroying the self in the mirror, you aren't really killing yourself its a metaphor for putting your love ahead of yourself. Your reward is the mirror of スキ, キス (a kiss) or the reciprocation of love, which Life Cool basically pointed out in this episode when he mentions that he thought Lulu's intent was to have Ginko get her love reciprocated. Everything so far, though, has shown that the system requires you to harm yourself in order to act in an approved manner - there was an obvious example this episode with the reveal of how the Court works, but it's happened throughout the series (see also, the fates of basically every antagonist). We've been given every reason to distrust the system and the options it offers, and this symbolism has too much cultural significance for me to dismiss it outright. Kumaria isn't natural, either - she's a literal alien imposition on a previously more peaceful (if still messy and unfair) world, just as the advent of Christianity changed the lives of gay people in Japan (mostly for the worse). Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 14:03 on Mar 17, 2015 |
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Mar 17, 2015 14:00
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You are seeing the things literally in this show when everything is working on a metaphorical level and then excluding parts when they are inconvenient. Like I mentioned the last time, if you take things literally then Kumaria is literally dead since before the show started. The very act of her dying was what triggered the severance in the first place. Also the courts dont give a flying gently caress about what the characters do, so long as you dont break the contract which so far has been "Dont tell anyone about us or that you are a bear IRL.  How can you look at this scene and say "Ah yes, this is clearly about the god figure telling us to kill ourselves" and not "We will overcome the natural limitations of our union guided by this magical thing called love" Cao Ni Ma fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Mar 17, 2015 |
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Mar 17, 2015 14:10
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Also in universe I'm pretty sure Kureha's mum wouldn't write an allegorical fairy tale about her daughter and then decide the best ending would be 'and they killed themselves and went to heaven'. Though now I'm kind of creeped out that she was basically shipping her daughter and her daughter's best friend.
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Mar 17, 2015 15:38
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I was going to say that in a wittier way, sort of "Even though the author is literally dead in this story, we shouldn't be invoking the death of the author"
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Mar 17, 2015 15:47
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