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Nevvy Z posted:Is there a name for lovely low-content media that exists only as a venue to have women stand around showing cleavage? I'm thinking specifically of that mess above, those Grimm books, etc. Professional wrestling.
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Mar 16, 2015 19:05
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Aphrodite posted:Professional wrestling. Oh come on, the last Raw had Wiz Khalifa on for longer than women.
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Mar 16, 2015 19:21
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Much as we laugh at troglodytes complaining about comics moving away from them by not drawing all women in skintight spandex, I do sometimes worry that one day the pendulum will swing back and we'll be back to unironic chainmail bikinis and plunging necklines for everybody and any complaint is dismissed as the thoughts of a has-been "social justice warrior". This goes for pop culture as a whole, which for decades has been on a slow and shaky course toward being more inclusive but could conceivably shift momentum some day. Comics as a medium has been very slow to adapt, particularly when it comes to character designs, and it'd suck if it just remained a backward holdout forever. Webcomics are pretty interesting because it's an unrestrained world for comic-drawing without the institutional baggage and inertia of the comics industry and while there's mountains of weird stuff there's also a lot of webcomics that feel light-years ahead.
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Mar 16, 2015 19:23
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Dolash posted:Much as we laugh at troglodytes complaining about comics moving away from them by not drawing all women in skintight spandex, I do sometimes worry that one day the pendulum will swing back and we'll be back to unironic chainmail bikinis and plunging necklines for everybody and any complaint is dismissed as the thoughts of a has-been "social justice warrior". Dude, that's still like half the stuff coming out. Although I do worry that there might eventually be a pushback, as there has been in gaming culture.
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Mar 16, 2015 19:28
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Lurdiak posted:Dude, that's still like half the stuff coming out. Although I do worry that there might eventually be a pushback, as there has been in gaming culture. The weird thing is that a lot of comics communities are completely blind and insular to what people are actually reading and who is actually reading comics. I mean, that's the grossest thing about about what Larsen is saying. "I'm tired of the big two placating a vocal minority at the expense of the rest of the paying audience by making more practical women outfits." The implication there is that it's men who like tits who read comics, and not these SJW Tumblr ladies trying to take away our boobs. Raina Telgemeier is probably one of the most influential comics authors around and not only has her name almost never been mentioned on this forum, you'd probably be hard-pressed to find her in an average comic book store. And it doesn't matter because Smile and Drama are being read by more 12 year old kids than any DC book. And when we go up to teens and young adults, you have Saga burning up the book shelves. And according to their most recent reader survey, Saga is predominantly read by women. And that doesn't mean there's not still a niche for gross man children who need as much cleavage as possible, but the idea that those man children drive the industry is a lie. We no longer have to ask the question of how we get women and girls to read comics. Women and girls read comics all the loving time and they might actually be reading more comics than their male counterparts. The question becomes how you get women and girls to read your comics. And Larsen doesn't get that. He thinks that something like the Batgirl costume is pandering to an audience that doesn't exist. Stuff like the Batgirl costume or Ms. Marvel's whole existence is seeking out an audience who is already being fed comics that look like this:  or this:  or this:  I fear the assholes who need their tits threatening sexual violence in the same way video games fans have. But I don't fear them winning or ruining the market. Fuckers have already lost.
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Mar 16, 2015 20:47
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Who the hell is selling Saga to teens?
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Mar 16, 2015 21:16
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Aphrodite posted:Who the hell is selling Saga to teens? People who promote young minds to read good literature. 
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Mar 16, 2015 21:25
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Aphrodite posted:Who the hell is selling Saga to teens? Every physical bookstore with a trade paperback section? Used book stores? redbackground fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Mar 16, 2015 |
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Mar 16, 2015 21:28
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Seriously Saga is great with the ballsack ogre and the Spider tits lady. Also Prince Robot's gay porn collection.
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Mar 16, 2015 21:29
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Who the hell thinks Saga is that inappropriate for a sixteen year old or that sixteen year olds are not reading Saga? EDIT: Either way it's off topic, and I was using saga as something that appeals to 16-24 year olds.
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Mar 16, 2015 21:53
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I was considering getting my sister a copy for christmas.
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Mar 16, 2015 22:45
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Timeless Appeal posted:Who the hell thinks Saga is that inappropriate for a sixteen year old or that sixteen year olds are not reading Saga? This is the costume thread, it's all off topic. Also you don't find Raina Telgemeier's stuff getting discussed often here because it's aimed at 12 year olds. This isn't her audience. Aphrodite fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Mar 16, 2015 |
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Mar 16, 2015 22:54
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Nevvy Z posted:Is there a name for lovely low-content media that exists only as a venue to have women stand around showing cleavage? I'm thinking specifically of that mess above, those Grimm books, etc. Boob War.
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Mar 17, 2015 01:44
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Costume slapfights are only an issue because Marvel/DC haven't fixed their biggest problem: shared continuity. A costume someone doesn't like on a character they like is how they're going to be drawn in every comic they're in. If shared continuity were ended authors could tailor characters and costumes to the stories they want to write and no one would have to care about the portrayal of <character> in <comic they don't read> by <author they don't like>. There will always be grognards but it's telling that this level of dumb fight doesn't happen over web/non-superhero comics. As weird as webcomic authors can be they at least understand that Oglaf and Paranatural shouldn't take place in the same universe.
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Mar 17, 2015 03:12
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SynthOrange posted:Boob War. The best kind of war.
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Mar 17, 2015 03:20
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Microcline posted:Costume slapfights are only an issue because Marvel/DC haven't fixed their biggest problem: shared continuity. A costume someone doesn't like on a character they like is how they're going to be drawn in every comic they're in. If shared continuity were ended authors could tailor characters and costumes to the stories they want to write and no one would have to care about the portrayal of <character> in <comic they don't read> by <author they don't like>. Except that, as the Marvel films show, that shared universe is also a very powerful and unique selling point.
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Mar 17, 2015 03:20
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Gaz-L posted:Except that, as the Marvel films show, that shared universe is also a very powerful and unique selling point. Ignoring arguments against that statement itself, how has that success helped the comics industry, do you think?
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Mar 17, 2015 03:29
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If the Universe encompasses everything, wouldn't the shared universe just be the universe? I mean the universe allows for infinite possibilities to begin with.
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Mar 17, 2015 03:36
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Dan Didio posted:Ignoring arguments against that statement itself, how has that success helped the comics industry, do you think? It's shown that there is a market beyond the diehards and encouraged them to at least try and expand out of the niche they have dwindled into appealing to them. I say let the grognards argue it's the only reason they get into anything.
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Mar 17, 2015 03:48
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Dan Didio posted:Ignoring arguments against that statement itself, how has that success helped the comics industry, do you think? Disney and Warner now see comics as viable IP farms, as opposed to worthless money sinks and lunchbox fodder? Like, that's a really odd question, because how has NOT having a shared universe in movies like Constantine and the new TMNT helped comics as an industry? I don't think either of those movies shifted that many more issues of Hellblazer or TMNT.
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Mar 17, 2015 04:03
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Has there been an attempt at a genuine superhero movie that wasn't from a comic book IP.
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Mar 17, 2015 04:09
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Nevvy Z posted:Has there been an attempt at a genuine superhero movie that wasn't from a comic book IP. Hancock?
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Mar 17, 2015 04:11
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Nevvy Z posted:Has there been an attempt at a genuine superhero movie that wasn't from a comic book IP. Sky High The Incredibles Darkman Unbreakable Chronicle Push Zebraman? I'm also going to toss in Robocop and Ghostbusters free of charge. redbackground fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Mar 17, 2015 |
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Mar 17, 2015 04:12
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SirDan3k posted:It's shown that there is a market beyond the diehards and encouraged them to at least try and expand out of the niche they have dwindled into appealing to them. The comics industry contracting has forced them to look for a market beyond diehards. The audience for triple-a, blockbuster superhero films aren't evidence that there's a wider market for comics buyers unless they're actively investing in and becoming part of the comic buyer market off the back of those films. Are they? Gaz-L posted:Disney and Warner now see comics as viable IP farms, as opposed to worthless money sinks and lunchbox fodder? So nothing has changed for the comics industry? They've always been viable IP farms. Disney and WB could let DC and Marvel collapse tomorrow and they'd have nearly a hundred years of comics to sift through before they run out of ideas. Comic book movies have been lucrative since the eighties at least. Secondly, comics aren't 'worthless money sinks'. They're profitable, collect a lot in merchandising and, admittedly, royalties from films, and are becoming more profitable and overcoming issues with distribution and finally adapting to modern technology.
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Mar 17, 2015 04:14
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hiddenriverninja posted:Hancock? Hancock!
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Mar 17, 2015 04:14
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Dan Didio posted:The comics industry contracting has forced them to look for a market beyond diehards. The audience for triple-a, blockbuster superhero films aren't evidence that there's a wider market for comics buyers unless they're actively investing in and becoming part of the comic buyer market off the back of those films. Are they? Half the audience for those movies is young women, which would be the audience that a lot of these costume redesigns (to bring us back on topic) are aimed at getting in the door.
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Mar 17, 2015 04:22
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Gaz-L posted:Half the audience for those movies is young women, which would be the audience that a lot of these costume redesigns (to bring us back on topic) are aimed at getting in the door. I got pulled in to (mainstream, superhero) comics-buying by seeing First Avenger and Winter Soldier back to back, going to the comic store, seeing there was a Black Widow ongoing with cool and non-creepy art and picking that up the day after seeing the movies.  And I'm a mid-twenties woman, so I'm probably at least a little of what they're going for.Personally I appreciate the effort they're putting in. There's still blunders like Wonder Woman's weird wrist knives, and creepy poo poo abounds (hello Greg Land), but that they're even giving it a go - even if it IS just to expand market share and git money - feels good. I've got a couple friends who got in by way of Ms Marvel, and one or two who heard about Hawkeye or had me shove it in their faces who've also started buying stuff off and on. Hawkeye's not really related to the costume topic, but it is something young adult women are buying as well. So at least to some tiny degree it's working, in my limited circle of already-nerdy friends who just weren't readin' superhero stuff. I have no idea how well it's working on any broader level. (Edit: Feel like it's also worth noting that I did and do read non-superhero comics as well, so I wasn't a total non-comics reader before gettin' converted.  Hawkeye-reading friend reads that and Batman '66 only; one of the Ms Marvel people started reading because she's Muslim and liked the idea of a Muslim girl superhero. Those folks weren't movie converts, tho both had seen the movies.)
A Tin Of Beans fucked around with this message at 04:57 on Mar 17, 2015 |
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Mar 17, 2015 04:42
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Gaz-L posted:Half the audience for those movies is young women, which would be the audience that a lot of these costume redesigns (to bring us back on topic) are aimed at getting in the door. Young women who are interested in comic books, which overlap with, but exist separate from, young women who will go and see the latest blockbuster superhero film. You're attributing cause and effect to coincidence and demographic overlap and eclipse. I'm asking for evidence that people who would not purchase comic books before did so because of the movies. Did they? Do they? It's something that gets stated a lot, but I'm not sure it's backed up by any long-term lasting trend in sales or demographics. Shirkelton fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Mar 17, 2015 |
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Mar 17, 2015 04:45
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Dan Didio posted:Young women who are interested in comic books, which overlap with, but exist separate from, young women who will go and see the latest blockbuster superhero film. You're attributing cause and effect to coincidence and demographic overlap and eclipse. The Big Two seem to think so, so I guess they do have something backing it up (but then I'm sure they also had for Nu52...). And even if only 3 % of the female movie goers check out a comic book and 3 % of those stick with it you already increased the readership by an order of magnitude. It's costing them basically nothing to try it. Because the alternative is losing 10-15 % readership every year until the last of us old fuckers are dead.
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Mar 17, 2015 09:40
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redbackground posted:Darkman That's really more like a throwback to The Shadow and The Spirit type pulp characters. I mean sure, you can roll them into superhero if you want by way of Batman, but that feels like reaching.
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Mar 17, 2015 09:41
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Decius posted:The Big Two seem to think so, so I guess they do have something backing it up (but then I'm sure they also had for Nu52...). And even if only 3 % of the female movie goers check out a comic book and 3 % of those stick with it you already increased the readership by an order of magnitude. It's costing them basically nothing to try it. Because the alternative is losing 10-15 % readership every year until the last of us old fuckers are dead. I still maintain that the only thing holding back retention is accessibility. Comixology and the like are not well known enough and when the initial month of buzz is gone people won't go out of their way to get the books. One freebie comic QR code app link in front of any major comic movie release would shake the comic world. SirDan3k fucked around with this message at 12:19 on Mar 17, 2015 |
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Mar 17, 2015 10:00
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Lurdiak posted:That's really more like a throwback to The Shadow and The Spirit type pulp characters. I mean sure, you can roll them into superhero if you want by way of Batman, but that feels like reaching.
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Mar 17, 2015 10:28
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Lurdiak posted:That's really more like a throwback to The Shadow and The Spirit type pulp characters. I mean sure, you can roll them into superhero if you want by way of Batman, but that feels like reaching.
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Mar 17, 2015 13:53
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redbackground posted:Do you consider The Question a superhero? It's kinda different when you exist in a shared superhero universe. Darkman just doesn't feel like a superhero movie, is all.
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Mar 17, 2015 14:23
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Dan Didio posted:Young women who are interested in comic books, which overlap with, but exist separate from, young women who will go and see the latest blockbuster superhero film. You're attributing cause and effect to coincidence and demographic overlap and eclipse. OK, you VASTly misunderstood my original answer, then. I was saying jack-and-poo poo about it affecting readership, in fact, my answer was explicitly going with the idea that it has NOT affected it, but that neither do films for indie/non-mainstream books, bar maybe a slight bump for the specific book. It's not like IDW were suddenly outselling Marvel because of the Turtles and Transformers movies. I was initially making the point that shared universe is not an inherent negative because comics are a niche market, because it's clearly resulted in mass market success in other mediums, so it's not the concept that's flawed. Then I attempted to answer your question as best I could be pointing out the secondary effects that could be positives for the industry, mostly by shoring up corporate support and spreading brand awareness among an underserved demo.
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Mar 17, 2015 16:52
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redbackground posted:I'm also going to toss in Robocop and Ghostbusters free of charge. Robocop was based on a script for a Judge Dredd movie.
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Mar 17, 2015 18:15
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Lurdiak posted:It's kinda different when you exist in a shared superhero universe. Darkman just doesn't feel like a superhero movie, is all. Up until the Marvel films no comic book movies really existed in a shared universe. Nolan's Batman films made over a billion dollars and have no connection to anything else.
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Mar 18, 2015 02:50
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Skwirl posted:Up until the Marvel films no comic book movies really existed in a shared universe. Nolan's Batman films made over a billion dollars and have no connection to anything else. Batman and Robin took place in a shared universe. Superman works alone, you see.
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Mar 18, 2015 02:56
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Skwirl posted:Up until the Marvel films no comic book movies really existed in a shared universe. Nolan's Batman films made over a billion dollars and have no connection to anything else. What I meant was, when something exists in a larger shared universe that's primarily about superheroes, it changes how that thing or character is perceived. The Lizard is basically a pulp sci fi villain if you take him out of Spider-man. Blade is thought of as a superhero while Buffy isn't. Etc.
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Mar 18, 2015 03:00
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Gavok posted:Batman and Robin took place in a shared universe. Superman works alone, you see. Apologies, everytime I try and remember details from that film I see a bright light, then blackness then I'm in a different city covered in other people's blood.
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Mar 18, 2015 03:04
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