Linguica posted:...and are more accurate when they are not in your direct field of view (?!). Hah, I guess that's sort of like critical chance or CTH going up when you perform a "sneak attack" in a lot of games...except for the enemy.
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Mar 18, 2015 03:29
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:Hah, I guess that's sort of like critical chance or CTH going up when you perform a "sneak attack" in a lot of games...except for the enemy. You also get that on enemies that can't see you, I think.
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Mar 18, 2015 03:49
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OK, that Mecha BJ video is great. I take it back, more power to the Wolf3D tinkerers.
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Mar 18, 2015 03:50
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The way you get good at Wolf3D is hugely different from how you get good in Doom or Quake. While in those games, the goal is to remain in this sort of trance where you're always weaving and dodging from incoming enemy fire. Someone once said that while Doom's gameplay is a constant flow with highs and lows, Wolfenstein works in beats. Open a door, kill some dudes, know where to take cover, dodge when they aim at you. The whole secret to being good at Wolf3D is a mix of snappy reflexes and total awareness of the environment. Every enemy has a very obvious "ready" stage before they shoot you and have 100% pain chance, making for very little randomization involved other than the enemy movement. It's a more cautious playstyle than other early FPS's at the time. Especially considering an enemy can knock off up to 40% of your health from behind.
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Mar 18, 2015 03:56
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Elliotw2 posted:You also get that on enemies that can't see you, I think.
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Mar 18, 2015 04:25
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Stuntman posted:Don't the enemies in Wolf3d face you no matter where you look at them from? Absolutely not in the good versions: PC, PC-98, AcornArchimedes, GBA, Apple IIGS Only the hosed up versions had that: SNES, Jaguar, Macintosh, 3DO In the good versions, each enemy had 8 sprite facing directions.
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Mar 18, 2015 04:29
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Nintendo Kid posted:In the good versions, each enemy had 8 sprite facing directions. Except for the unique enemies at the end of each act and the flying Hitler things, though, I think. MONKET posted:The way you get good at Wolf3D is hugely different from how you get good in Doom or Quake. While in those games, the goal is to remain in this sort of trance where you're always weaving and dodging from incoming enemy fire. Someone once said that while Doom's gameplay is a constant flow with highs and lows, Wolfenstein works in beats. Open a door, kill some dudes, know where to take cover, dodge when they aim at you. The whole secret to being good at Wolf3D is a mix of snappy reflexes and total awareness of the environment. Every enemy has a very obvious "ready" stage before they shoot you and have 100% pain chance, making for very little randomization involved other than the enemy movement. It's a more cautious playstyle than other early FPS's at the time. Especially considering an enemy can knock off up to 40% of your health from behind. Hey, yeah, "trance" is a really good way of putting it. I feel like, when I'm at my best in Doom and Serious Sam, I'm usually in a sort of "zone". They might be pretty different games, but there's a distinct rhythm to the weapons, movement, and enemies in both. The Cyberdemon's rockets are spaced this far apart; a Kleer will automatically leap at you within a certain distance; the shotguns fire this fast; etc. You get to a point where you stopped actively thinking about what's going to happen next because you're tuned in to the patterns that everything makes based on animation and sound, like some sort of FPS Rainman. That's when you can just endlessly circle-strafe around a mob of 50 Kleer without being injured, or effortlessly dismantle a gaggle of imps and HK's without a scratch. It's basically a magical dance of sorts. Cream-of-Plenty fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Mar 18, 2015 |
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Mar 18, 2015 04:53
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:Except for the unique enemies at the end of each act and the flying Hitler things, though, I think.
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Mar 18, 2015 05:27
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Have there been remakes of Catacombs 3D and the follow-up trilogy? Something to bring back statues coming to life, skeletons walking out of walls in a crypt, the time-freezing power up that lets you leave shots mid-air, captions describing every room of every level.
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Mar 18, 2015 06:00
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Bouchacha posted:I admit I never had interest in Wolf3D only because of the hitscan gameplay. What are you supposed to do when all weapons hit instantly? With Doom you have to dodge projectiles, not get boxed in, and you counter with a whole range of weapons which operate very differently. Even Call of Duty has cover, flanking, and grenades. I don't get how you "get good" at Wolf3D It's totally different gameplay so I can see why people who like one may not like the other. Wolfenstein is about creeping around and shooting first and not getting blindsided, because you die very quickly if someone gets a good shot at you (but they die quickly too, if the reverse is true). Doom is a first-person bullet hell game where you zip around between openings in slow-moving projectiles and you die very quickly if you stop moving or find yourself in a position where you can't move.
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Mar 18, 2015 06:19
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closeted republican posted:Hahaha it's fun seeing how they saw maps back then compared to now. The writing style and tone is late 90s as hell as well. And here's an example of the next wave of 90s writing-about-maps: https://web.archive.org/web/20001031061352/http://www.planetquake.com/ramshackle/full/contamin.htm It's too bad that Ramshackle used a Java navigation widget, as it seems to have defeated the sites that have attempted to archive PlanetQuake stuff, to greater or lesser extent. archive.org at least has all the reviews, if you go here and filter for .htm : https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.planetquake.com/ramshackle/full/* ... but most of the reviews don't have working pictures, which is a shame. I used to really look forward to new Ramshackle posts.
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Mar 18, 2015 07:24
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Linguica posted:Wolf3D has some interesting hitscan code from what I remember. Enemies are less accurate when far away (duh), are less accurate when you are running (makes sense...), and are more accurate when they are not in your direct field of view (?!).
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Mar 18, 2015 09:53
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SelenicMartian posted:Have there been remakes of Catacombs 3D and the follow-up trilogy? Something to bring back statues coming to life, skeletons walking out of walls in a crypt, the time-freezing power up that lets you leave shots mid-air, captions describing every room of every level. I wish  I played the poo poo out of Catacomb: Abyss. For a shareware episode, it sure packed on the levels. Wolfenstein gave you 10, Doom gave you, what, 8? 9? It felt like Catacomb Abyss (the shareware episode available out of the series) gave you something like 30, though maybe I'm misremembering. Seemed REALLY long, though.
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Mar 18, 2015 14:13
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Linguica posted:I'm running a tournament to determine the best stock Doom / Doom 2 level for some reason: http://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-general/72107-april-agitation-the-tournament-for-ids-best-doom-doom-2-level-round-0/ site posted:There was once a mod who felt as you do... Then out came Forever and it wasn't clever That old mod, the poor sod, only mutters a "boo". SelenicMartian posted:Have there been remakes of Catacombs 3D and the follow-up trilogy? Something to bring back statues coming to life, skeletons walking out of walls in a crypt, the time-freezing power up that lets you leave shots mid-air, captions describing every room of every level. Rupert Buttermilk posted:I wish I'd certainly love for somebody to make a proper source port. The last time I tried to play The Catacombs Abyss, some of the wall textures started corrupting, displaying utter garbage data, until the game just up and crashed on me when I grabbed a scroll. Understandably, I haven't felt much like revisiting the game since.
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Mar 18, 2015 16:19
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I did beat all of fps Catacombs via dosbox shortly before they hit gOg. My favourite part was the final boss of the second(?) game of the Trilogy being placed in the same room as a few time-stop powerups. You grab one and then you get half a minute to release several dozen shots and bursts aimed at the boss. Then the normal time flow resumes, the shots move and the boss dies instantly.
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Mar 18, 2015 16:33
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I know I'm gonna get reamed for this, but does anyone know of any texture packs for 3D Doom enemy models that don't suck complete rear end. Admittedly, I'm giving Doomsday a shot, and although obviously it has the option to play with the original sprites I wanted to give the 3D models a go. I figured someone would've come up with better textures by now...
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Mar 18, 2015 19:42
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Nope To be more helpful, there is only the one, and it is still completely trash. There is a voxel project for the pickups and decoration that isn't awful, but I don't know if they ever had a release before they burnt out.
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Mar 18, 2015 19:44
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site posted:I know I'm gonna get reamed for this, but does anyone know of any texture packs for 3D Doom enemy models that don't suck complete rear end. Admittedly, I'm giving Doomsday a shot, and although obviously it has the option to play with the original sprites I wanted to give the 3D models a go. I figured someone would've come up with better textures by now... This generally falls in the same purview of "HD sprites" for all the Doom monsters, which is also almost always doomed to fail from the start. The only way you're going to get good results is from a professional, and even then they're probably not going to do all that work for free. And even then if they did, they'd probably want to do something new and original, rather than redoing the monsters (which all already look perfectly fine) and try to recreate tiny details that people can't agree on (are those lights on the side of the cyberdemon's head? Eyes? Is that a laser sight on its gun or a stripe?). And even then, once they get in-game, they're going to look...weird.
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Mar 18, 2015 20:27
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And you also have to consider that the enemies move in a way that looks terrible in 3D - they move towards the player and randomly change direction a little bit which looks fine in 2D because your imagination can pretty much fill in the gaps and it looks consistent, but give that a smooth 3D animation and suddenly you realise how stupid the movement patterns are. It's why I never liked the Duke HRP monsters either.
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Mar 18, 2015 20:30
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Jblade posted:And you also have to consider that the enemies move in a way that looks terrible in 3D - they move towards the player and randomly change direction a little bit which looks fine in 2D because your imagination can pretty much fill in the gaps and it looks consistent, but give that a smooth 3D animation and suddenly you realize how stupid the movement patterns are. It's why I never liked the Duke HRP monsters either. Now this is silly. The monsters look like they move weird because they only have 8 directions, so when they're moving in a direction in between one of the 8 normal sprite directions they'll flip between them. A properly implemented 3D model will simply be rotated to the correct heading at all times - the engine natively handles facing directions as something like 1/65536 of a circle increments or something like that.
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Mar 18, 2015 20:50
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Doom monsters only ever move / face 8 directions though. Unless they're attacking I guess.
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Mar 18, 2015 21:04
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More importantly, the enemy movement is synched to their walk cycle- their sprites only change position when they advance to the next frame, so it looks like they took a step at that moment rather than gliding along the floor while moonwalking. That doesn't translate at all to 3D models, smooth animation gives them a totally different feel.
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Mar 18, 2015 21:18
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Sad, but not unsurprising. I just kind hoped that after all this time, and with how popular Doom modding is, someone mighta taken a crack at it. Oh well, back to sprites.
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Mar 18, 2015 21:38
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Elliotw2 posted:Nope Nah, there's the old Doomsday models but there's also a newer set by Sitters for Risen3D. http://risen3d.drdteam.org/downloads.htm Disclaimer: I've never used either.
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Mar 18, 2015 22:12
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Nintendo Kid posted:Now this is silly. The monsters look like they move weird because they only have 8 directions, so when they're moving in a direction in between one of the 8 normal sprite directions they'll flip between them. I'm talking about the Duke HRP more though, it's possible Doom enemies act ok in 3D but I don't think it'll be much better than what's seen in the Duke HRP. quote:More importantly, the enemy movement is synched to their walk cycle- their sprites only change position when they advance to the next frame, so it looks like they took a step at that moment rather than gliding along the floor while moonwalking. That doesn't translate at all to 3D models, smooth animation gives them a totally different feel.
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Mar 18, 2015 22:20
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Cat Mattress posted:Nah, there's the old Doomsday models but there's also a newer set by Sitters for Risen3D.
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Mar 18, 2015 22:20
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Jblade posted:This is also true. I'm sure this could be fixed with precise timing of the animation, but most of the time the models do still appear to be floating around rather than actually walking. Probably a lot of this is because Doom doesn't support animation blending. If a sprite is attacking, it's using the firing frames even if it's moving around. You might be able to halfass it with some extreme decorate hacks, but it's probably not worth it at all when you can just use the same few sets and let the low resolution cover for the engine limits.
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Mar 18, 2015 22:25
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Jblade posted:I'm not sure you understand what I mean, or I didn't explain it well enough. The way the monsters move look great for 2D, but to see that extrapolated to 3D (for instance, enemies in Duke rapidly switch angle) without any animation applied to it looks loving terrible. The only way it would work well is if someone actually spent the time adding animations and then subsequently code to make enemies have actual animations for turning around or moving to the side, and obviously no-one wants to spend that time for an old HRP. The 3D model packs go beyond simply replacing the sprite facings. They still look awful for other reasons, but it isn't due to lack of animation during turns.
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Mar 18, 2015 22:37
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Elliotw2 posted:Probably a lot of this is because Doom doesn't support animation blending. If a sprite is attacking, it's using the firing frames even if it's moving around. You might be able to halfass it with some extreme decorate hacks, but it's probably not worth it at all when you can just use the same few sets and let the low resolution cover for the engine limits. Isn't this what Beautiful Doom does?
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Mar 18, 2015 22:37
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Technically, if a sprite is attacking, it isn't calling the movement code to alter its momentum any. Outside of floating enemies like Cacodemons, Pain Elementals and Lost Souls, that generally means they're entirely stationary.
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Mar 18, 2015 22:39
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Shadow Hog posted:Technically, if a sprite is attacking, it isn't calling the movement code to alter its momentum any. Outside of floating enemies like Cacodemons, Pain Elementals and Lost Souls, that generally means they're entirely stationary. There's some monsters that attack while moving in Hexen. Not coincidentally, they are flying monsters. Technically the lost soul also attacks while moving, heh.
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Mar 18, 2015 23:55
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Is anyone else's favorite version of Doom 3 on the Nintendo 64?
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Mar 19, 2015 05:47
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I'm pretty sure you will find that everyone in this thread prefers Doom 64 to the so-called Doom 3. Doom 64 is really drat good, and actually plays like Doom, unlike Doom 3.
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Mar 19, 2015 06:24
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Doom 3 could have been worse. It could have been its BFG edition.
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Mar 19, 2015 07:28
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SelenicMartian posted:Doom 3 could have been worse. It could have been its BFG edition. Hey, I like BFG edition more than regular Doom 3.
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Mar 19, 2015 09:49
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NeTuWMzYJw At what stage does something stop being a mod and becomes a bizarro art piece? 
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Mar 19, 2015 11:25
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Al Cu Ad Solte posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NeTuWMzYJw This looks like something I would have died to play 15 years ago, but I'm sure as hell not going to let that stop me now!
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Mar 19, 2015 13:55
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Guys. GUYS. One of the best FPSes ever made is coming out on GOG today. 2PM GMT. Prepare your wallets.
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Mar 19, 2015 14:05
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Commander Keenan posted:Guys. GUYS. One of the best FPSes ever made is coming out on GOG today. 2PM GMT. Prepare your wallets.
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Mar 19, 2015 14:13
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Al Cu Ad Solte posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NeTuWMzYJw That neck snap is loving hilarious.
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Mar 19, 2015 14:18
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