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semper wifi posted:Is a screwdriver somewhere below a knife on the "danger" scale? Sure. Is it still capable of killing someone? Sure. Do the police have a duty to let the guy stab them with a screwdriver while they try to beat him to the ground with batons/fumble with OC spray/try to tase him? Nope. See this is the incorrect understanding of the use of impact weapons that too many poorly trained police have. When you are subduing a person with an edged weapon or something similar you hopefully don't try to "beat them to the ground," you strike the limb holding the weapon.
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Mar 19, 2015 00:59
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SedanChair posted:See this is the incorrect understanding of the use of impact weapons that too many poorly trained police have. When you are subduing a person with an edged weapon or something similar you hopefully don't try to "beat them to the ground," you strike the limb holding the weapon. But wow, wasn't that a telling description, eh?
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Mar 19, 2015 01:00
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Let me beat this person holding a shiny thing to the ground, where my precious Achilles tendons live.
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Mar 19, 2015 01:02
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No no no guys don't you see? We're basically requiring police to get stabbed to death if we insist they treat potentially dangerous encounters as something other than "IF even vaguely threatening THEN ventilate" scenarios.
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Mar 19, 2015 01:05
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Zeitgueist posted:Yeah, he said the complete loss of body control was more disconcerting, but way less painful. The whole "insane guy on angel-dust hulking up" is always bullshit. Sort of like how the dead guy is always 6" taller and 100lbs heavier according to the cop. VikingofRock posted:We should ban everyday cops from carrying guns, and bring in specially trained officers whenever more force is necessary (active shooter scenarios, etc). Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Mar 19, 2015 |
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Mar 19, 2015 01:06
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Rent-A-Cop posted:It isn't really a beefy thing from my admittedly limited experience. Some people seem to just naturally have a fairly limited response to capsaicin. Some people also fall down and throw up a lot. For most people it seems to fall somewhere in the "very painful" range. Killing people because they maybe aren't completely incapacitated by OC is not a good solution. Like I said, it seems like cops explaining how they use OC spray to torture folks, which seems to be the case.
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Mar 19, 2015 01:11
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Rent-A-Cop posted:In no way do any of the chemicals in pepper spray render you incapable of "deliberate action." That's my point. It hurts like poo poo, but if you don't care because you're nuts, or wasted, or just hard as nails well then it doesn't do much good. It's effectiveness is mostly in people not wanting to feel like their face is on fire and generally reacting to that feeling with panic. Its not really the point, it doesn't take much deliberate action to be to frantically grab at and stab wildly at the closest thing to you. Also this conversation is dumb , we don't have enough information (yet, probably never) from the video to know whether the man became a legitimate threat. What we do know is that these cops approached a MH call just like they would any other rational actor and because they did so this guy is dead. The lack of training on dealing with the mentally ill, and the fact we task cops with dealing with them as much as we do is a major loving problem. If he did become a threat its because their mishandling of the situation escalated it. g0del posted:I think that's what really got to me - they immediately start justifying the shoot. They sounded like my kids when I've just caught them doing something they know is wrong. "He made me hurt him" isn't a valid excuse at my house, but evidently is justification for shooting someone if you're a cop. I'm guessing you've never dealt with people who just killed someone, this is common reaction and its usually the person is convincing/reassuring themselves. Jarmak fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Mar 19, 2015 |
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Mar 19, 2015 01:11
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Rural cops should probably keep a rifle in the trunk though. Rural policing has no bearing on this discussion.
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Mar 19, 2015 01:12
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Zeitgueist posted:Killing people because they maybe aren't completely incapacitated by OC is not a good solution. SedanChair posted:Rural policing has no bearing on this discussion.
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Mar 19, 2015 01:15
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Sorry SedanChair I must have missed it when someone made you a mod. I mean what scenario are you talking about anyway? Grizzly defense, or getting pinned down by bootleggers when backup is 50 miles away?
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Mar 19, 2015 01:17
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What bothers me most about these murderous, trigger-happy cops is that they're not loving doing their jobs. They are paid to put their life on the line, which they are unwilling to do. They're not getting paid to murder mentally ill people, they're getting paid (and big fat loving pensions and benefits) to risk their loving lives for us. Those cops should absolutely have tried to talk that guy down or disarm him physically. They chose the cowards way out, the unprofessional, short-sighted, bully's solution. They're loving cowards more afraid of a black man than upholding their duty. Being a police officer is not something you are forced or conscripted to do. You volunteer to take that job, and part of that is volunteering to risk personal injury or death in order make society safe. Cops these days do not risk their lives. They shoot first because they're racist cowards. If they're too afraid of getting hurt to disable a mentally ill man in a non-lethal manner then they shouldn't be loving cops to begin with. I'd rather see cops get stabbed by screwdrivers every day than murder innocent people, and you should too. It's our loving tax dollars going to pay these psychopaths. How are u fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Mar 19, 2015 |
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Mar 19, 2015 02:00
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So today a white supremacist went on a shooting spree in Arizona, but the police were actually able to arrest him by tasering instead of shooting. Obviously it's not the same exact cops involved, so you can't make a direct comparison of the situations, but it still makes a pretty sharp contrast with the guy who was shot for having a screwdriver and not dropping it fast enough, or the one last week who was shot for being naked in public. Clearly it is possible to use non-violent means to subdue even extremely violent people if the police are actually willing to try.
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Mar 19, 2015 02:15
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Florida Betty posted:So today a white supremacist went on a shooting spree in Arizona, but the police were actually able to arrest him by tasering instead of shooting. Obviously it's not the same exact cops involved, so you can't make a direct comparison of the situations, but it still makes a pretty sharp contrast with the guy who was shot for having a screwdriver and not dropping it fast enough, or the one last week who was shot for being naked in public. Clearly it is possible to use non-violent means to subdue even extremely violent people if the police are actually willing to try. Pretty much. And yes, obviously they are not willing to try when the subject is black. Black lives are worth less than poo poo in this country.
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Mar 19, 2015 02:22
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Florida Betty posted:So today a white supremacist went on a shooting spree in Arizona, but the police were actually able to arrest him by tasering instead of shooting. Obviously it's not the same exact cops involved, so you can't make a direct comparison of the situations, but it still makes a pretty sharp contrast with the guy who was shot for having a screwdriver and not dropping it fast enough, or the one last week who was shot for being naked in public. Clearly it is possible to use non-violent means to subdue even extremely violent people if the police are actually willing to try. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha 
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Mar 19, 2015 02:23
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Christ and cops get so much hero worship about how tough and dangerous their jobs are. Yeah, I'm sure it's pretty dang tough and you do indeed get into dicey situations. But that doesn't mean you get to be both a lauded hero of public safety at the same time you turn to your loving gun every time you feel remotely threatened. You can either be a heroic public servant who actually puts his life on the line or you can waste someone every time you feel scared. But in America today the cops can do no wrong as far as the public at large is concerned. Same for the Troops.
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Mar 19, 2015 02:28
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Florida Betty posted:So today a white supremacist went on a shooting spree in Arizona, but the police were actually able to arrest him by tasering instead of shooting. Obviously it's not the same exact cops involved, so you can't make a direct comparison of the situations, but it still makes a pretty sharp contrast with the guy who was shot for having a screwdriver and not dropping it fast enough, or the one last week who was shot for being naked in public. Clearly it is possible to use non-violent means to subdue even extremely violent people if the police are actually willing to try. It is also not the same as there was no indication that he was armed at the time of capture. The shooting was at 8;30AM, the capture was 1PM. That's a long time to become unarmed.
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Mar 19, 2015 02:33
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nm posted:It is also not the same as there was no indication that he was armed at the time of capture. The shooting was at 8;30AM, the capture was 1PM. That's a long time to become unarmed. I think it's fair to assume that a spree shooter is probably very armed
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Mar 19, 2015 02:35
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blunt for century posted:I think it's fair to assume that a spree shooter is probably very armed If they tased him, it is quite unlikely. If you have a gun, cops don't care if you're white or black, they're gonna make you dead. Only without guns does it really come into play. Also, he was apparently in his own apartment at the time, maybe he put it down to take a poo poo, I don't know.
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Mar 19, 2015 02:39
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nm posted:If they tased him, it is quite unlikely. If you have a gun, cops don't care if you're white or black, they're gonna make you dead. Only without guns does it really come into play. I wonder how many screwdrivers were within reach 
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Mar 19, 2015 02:44
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blunt for century posted:I wonder how many screwdrivers were within reach Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Mar 19, 2015 |
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Mar 19, 2015 02:47
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nm posted:If they tased him, it is quite unlikely. If you have a gun, cops don't care if you're white or black, they're gonna make you dead. Only without guns does it really come into play. If you don't have a gun, you might also get dead. The race aspect is relevant though.
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Mar 19, 2015 03:04
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nm posted:If you have a gun, cops don't care if you're white or black, they're gonna make you dead. Is there like a "greatest hits" compilation of all of those videos over just the past couple years of belligerent gun-brandishing white dudes being patiently talked down by the police that I can link to here? I mean just the other week there was that story of the two white guys actually shooting up a store with BB guns or buckshot, who somehow got taken into custody peacefully.
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Mar 19, 2015 03:10
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Cichlid the Loach posted:I mean just the other week there was that story of the two white guys actually shooting up a store with BB guns or buckshot, who somehow got taken into custody peacefully.
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Mar 19, 2015 03:17
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gently caress the . . . . fire department? http://www.aol.com/article/2015/02/...26pLid%3D612944 Shame on the two firefighters, shame on the DA who filed these charges despite the physical evidence showing it not being arson, and shame on the DA again for not charging them. It should come as no shock they're both still employed bye the fire department.
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Mar 19, 2015 06:06
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semper wifi posted:It was a totally justified shooting. The cops in this case really didn't do anything wrong. They shot a guy charging them with a weapon. Like I said before it probably could have been done better by someone, somewhere - if they backed off sooner, came to the door ready to tase him or talked to his mom more before they met the guy, but once it reached the point it did it's silly to expect the cops to do much thinking beyond oh poo poo->shoot. There is NO public good that is being served by having people who have the mentality of loving gang members roaming the streets, pretending they're keeping the peace while demanding absolute obedience backed by the penalty of death without redress.
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Mar 19, 2015 06:21
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Lyesh posted:There is NO public good that is being served by having people who have the mentality of loving gang members roaming the streets, pretending they're keeping the peace while demanding absolute obedience backed by the penalty of death without redress. I believe that the systematic profiling, incarceration and murder of black males is absolutely seen as a public good by a majority of Americans. Most would never admit to it of course, or possibly even be able to articulate it in their conscious minds. But you can see it in their reaction when you casually suggest that hey, maybe no cops would be better than systematically racist cops.
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Mar 19, 2015 06:47
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SedanChair posted:But you can see it in their reaction when you casually suggest that hey, maybe no cops would be better than systematically racist cops.
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Mar 19, 2015 07:18
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Yeah, but that is a super dumb thing to suggest. Yes, that's what they say because their own racism has terrified them to the point where they are unable to consider alternatives. They just say "that's dumb" and everybody understands what's really being discussed, and who would really go uncontained.
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Mar 19, 2015 07:32
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SedanChair posted:Yes, that's what they say because their own racism has terrified them to the point where they are unable to consider alternatives. They just say "that's dumb" and everybody understands what's really being discussed, and who would really go uncontained.
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Mar 19, 2015 07:35
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Would you really say that the absence of a civilian police force is the most salient characteristic of those failed states?
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Mar 19, 2015 07:38
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SedanChair posted:Would you really say that the absence of a civilian police force is the most salient characteristic of those failed states?
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Mar 19, 2015 07:39
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Are you advocating for the replacement of civil police with military police? No, would you like to answer my question now?
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Mar 19, 2015 07:41
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SedanChair posted:No, would you like to answer my question now? SedanChair posted:Would you really say that the absence of a civilian police force is the most salient characteristic of those failed states? Would you really like to have a serious discussion over whether bad law enforcement is worse than no law enforcement? Because that is a very silly discussion.
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Mar 19, 2015 07:46
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I guess the question is "worse for who?" Because there are populations who derive precisely zero benefit from policing, while experiencing significant harm. Other populations would certainly experience harm from an absence of all policing, but I am tired of people taking it for granted that the balance of harm and benefit to those populations should remain fundamentally unchanged because of an inchoate terror of return to the state of nature (which is nothing more than code for black men running free in the streets with machetes).
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Mar 19, 2015 08:00
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SedanChair posted:I guess the question is "worse for who?" Because there are populations who derive precisely zero benefit from policing, while experiencing significant harm.
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Mar 19, 2015 08:11
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See, now you want to make me go back on what I said earlier because that sounds like a job for the National Guard. If the only thing keeping you defending the existence of police is protection of minority groups, that's curious to me because they are not particularly qualified for that job. The military, on the other hand, is actually pretty good at that job when they are assigned to it.
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Mar 19, 2015 08:19
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Look at the most recent example of No Police Time in America. During the aftermath of Hurrican Katrina the NOPD went from being an extremely lovely law enforcement agency to making no attempt to enforce the law at all. This resulted in cops murdering black people, white vigilante gangs murdering black people, and the military having to show up to unfuck the situation. Eventually once the NOPD and Home Owners Associations were pacified by the National Guard some token prosecutions were made, and the NOPD went back to just being lovely instead of nonexistent. White American then placed the blame for all those dead black people squarely on the black community for not using the Magical Negro Hive Mind to somehow rectify a total collapse of civic order.SedanChair posted:See, now you want to make me go back on what I said earlier because that sounds like a job for the National Guard. If the only thing keeping you defending the existence of police is protection of minority groups, that's curious to me because they are not particularly qualified for that job. The military, on the other hand, is actually pretty good at that job when they are assigned to it. Edit: Although I'm sure Bill Bratton is working on fixing that little oversight. Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Mar 19, 2015 |
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Mar 19, 2015 08:24
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I would be more comfortable with the military than with police because the military has actually taken steps to actively confront institutional racism. They also tend to see Americans as people they are supposed to protect, not antagonize; furthermore, they actually have some experience with legitimate life-threatening situations, and so might be less likely to gun people down for holding a screwdriver. Now if the person holding the screwdriver was in Iraq, that might not turn out so well; but again, they have the advantage of not seeing Americans, even black Americans, as the enemy, whereas police very much do see them as the enemy. As to Katrina, I think that is a similar situation to the LA riots. Pointing to a time where the police decided to stop enforcing the law, and the chaos that ensued, is not a convincing defense for the continued existence of policing.
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Mar 19, 2015 08:38
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SedanChair posted:As to Katrina, I think that is a similar situation to the LA riots. Pointing to a time where the police decided to stop enforcing the law, and the chaos that ensued, is not a convincing defense for the continued existence of policing. Constitutional issues aside I think there's something to be said for having a hard separation between civil law enforcement personnel and military personnel. As someone with some experience with military law enforcement I think you give them far too much credit. They are exactly the same bored, power-tripping dicks that regular cops are. Just in a different uniform and paid even less. The military legal system is also in many ways hilariously awful and should not in any way ever be applied to civilians. Edit: This is dangerously close to becoming a dialogue. Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 08:50 on Mar 19, 2015 |
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Mar 19, 2015 08:42
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How are u posted:What bothers me most about these murderous, trigger-happy cops is that they're not loving doing their jobs. They are paid to put their life on the line, which they are unwilling to do. They're not getting paid to murder mentally ill people, they're getting paid (and big fat loving pensions and benefits) to risk their loving lives for us. Besides basically The Secret Service, no job will nor should require you to put your life on the line in the United States. If going to the beat would be "putting your life on the line", it wouldn't be done. Policing in America is a safe profession, and by asking them to "put their life on the line" is just feeding into the retarded hero worship. The whole issue here is that the cops weren't in any great danger, yet killed that man. No one is gonna mind public workers defending themselves reasonably from reasonable threats. It's just that often there are no reasonable threats nor reasonable measures.
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Mar 19, 2015 10:42
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