Rent-A-Cop posted:I'd argue that the police are less dangerous to even the most marginalized populations than what history tells us happens to minorities when nobody bothers to enforce the laws against murdering minorities. I do not have so much faith in humanity that I can believe a total lack of law enforcement would result in anything but a massive increase in violence across all segments of the population. If you really think that the only thing preventing an orgy of bloodshed is because of fear of the police, well, it's pretty hard to prove that one way or the other, since you can always say that people deep down are motivated by cop-fear, but it's pretty ridiculous without an overriding reason to loathe people generally. There's also the issue that just because someone is OK with abstract bloodshed and violence doesn't mean that they're OK with committing that violence themselves.
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Mar 19, 2015 14:31
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Rent-A-Cop posted:I'm confused as to whether you're arguing against the general principle of law enforcement or the current structure of American law enforcement. I wasn't really thinking of MPs, I quite assume that they behave like police. Regular troops on a peacekeeping mission would be more appropriate. Now this is all airy theorizing and as you say there is a concern with the separation of civilian and military power, but in all honesty part of the reason states have clung to that power is so they can implement racist policies. Most of the constitution exists specifically to defend racism at the state level. As for the UCMJ it's certainly a barrel of poo poo, but I don't see why it would apply to civilians just because it applies to the people protecting them. In fact I rather like the idea that if we are going to have a force with the power to use lethal force in carrying out their duties, they should be subject to additional restrictions on their rights, just like military personnel are. One of the most galling things to me about the Ferguson debacle was the prosecutor gloating at the press conference about how high the standard of proof is to show that the use of lethal force by a police officer was not lawful. I don't think police should get more protection from the law than civilians, they should get less.
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Mar 19, 2015 15:15
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Vahakyla posted:Besides basically The Secret Service, no job will nor should require you to put your life on the line in the United States. If going to the beat would be "putting your life on the line", it wouldn't be done. Firemen? Miners? Oil Rigs? Construction? High voltage line workers? Hell I think crab fisherman is the #1 most dangerous job in the US and that's just so people can eat crab meat, cops are not even in the top ten. Or maybe firemen should start thinking like cops. "Yeah that's a really big fire, someone might die trying to save the people inside. Oh well". I'm pretty sure when people say cops putting their life on the line is part of the job they aren't saying they need tho throw themselves in front of someone being shot at, they mean make the loving effort to de-escalate a dangerous situation first and not poo poo their pants and empty a clip into scary black man because he had something in his hand.
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Mar 19, 2015 17:33
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nm posted:If they tased him, it is quite unlikely. If you have a gun, cops don't care if you're white or black, they're gonna make you dead. Only without guns does it really come into play. Remember when a white woman went for a drive in Tennessee taking shots at people out her window? And when the police caught up with her, she blocked an officer into his car and pointed the weapon at him? And then somehow they didn't kill her in a hail of gunfire, they instead ordered her to put down the gun and she complied and was arrested. quote:After the woman drove through Hixson in body armor shooting at people while they sat in their cars, after she led police on a long, looping chase and after she waved the handgun at passersby, she pulled her car right up to a police cruiser -- her driver's side door to his -- and pointed the weapon at him. I mean, props to that cop, I am really glad that he took the risk she might shoot and made the effort to engage her instead of just opening fire. Obviously this is a different police force than the one that shot screwdriver man, but I can't help but think that being a middle aged white woman changes how the police think about and approach you then if you are a black man. If the cops had a report about a young black man in body armor driving around the neighborhood shooting at cars, would they would have hesitated at all in shooting him? I would like to think that Officer Engle is the stand-up guy that would. That would be a nice surprise. I am sure cops kill people they perceive as threats all the time regardless of their race (Douglas Zerby was white, for instance) but it sure seems like there is a big difference on the threat-o-meter when white people who are actually shooting at people get arrested and black kids with toys get shot.
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Mar 19, 2015 17:33
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Jarmak posted:I'm guessing you've never dealt with people who just killed someone, this is common reaction and its usually the person is convincing/reassuring themselves.
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Mar 19, 2015 17:57
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Ashcans posted:Remember when a white woman went for a drive in Tennessee taking shots at people out her window? And when the police caught up with her, she blocked an officer into his car and pointed the weapon at him? And then somehow they didn't kill her in a hail of gunfire, they instead ordered her to put down the gun and she complied and was arrested. When Dorner was still on the loose, LAPD was shooting randomly at pickup trucks because there might have been a large black man in them.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:41
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Toasticle posted:
Yeah this is exactly what I meant. If they're too loving cowardly to take even the slightest risk of personal harm in order to save a person's life they should not be cops. Full stop.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:43
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From another thread:Armyman25 posted:I was watching Terminator 2 recently, and realized that the only person the LAPD kill in the movie is an unarmed black man, who they shoot without warning, meanwhile they give Arnold multiple warnings to drop his weapon as he was advancing on them before they started shooting, even after he had used a grenade launcher and minigun against them.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:44
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http://www.salon.com/2015/03/19/police_seek_motive_in_phoenix_area_rampage_that_killed_1/quote:He was taken into custody after officers spotted him on an apartment balcony and hit him with a stun gun. Numerous officers led the handcuffed man to a truck parked outside the apartment complex. And then beat the poo poo out of him it looks like. Still not sure why it's acceptable for anyone to be taken into custody looking like that but they did taser him.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:49
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Lemming posted:When Dorner was still on the loose, LAPD was shooting randomly at pickup trucks because there might have been a large black man in them. I like how poo poo like that didn't bring about sweeping changes in the LAPD but people were just like...."welp, LAPD"
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Mar 19, 2015 19:25
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Toasticle posted:Firemen? Miners? Oil Rigs? Construction? High voltage line workers? Hell I think crab fisherman is the #1 most dangerous job in the US and that's just so people can eat crab meat, cops are not even in the top ten. Or maybe firemen should start thinking like cops. "Yeah that's a really big fire, someone might die trying to save the people inside. Oh well". Except most good departments don't take hail mary passes with big fires. Fully involves and "maybe someone inside? gently caress it". Firefighter's life during firefighting is valued higher than the people needing rescue. I've seem people stand still near swift water emergencies and see dudes get washed away because it's too dangerous for the firefighters to get into the water. The people needing rescue or help are already in danger. The cop car/firetruck is not a ferry that's used to bring more people into the danger, but instead to try to help the situation. So firemen already think like that. Sorry to ruin your image but public workers are not there to be traded to other lives and by asking something like that you give false credibility to the cops who kill for no loving reason. You do realize that "holy poo poo that roof is on fire, not getting on it" is a thing that firefighters say to their supervisors all the time? The job is not that dangerous, it doesn't require an itchy trigger finger. Keep saying that their life is on the line and you are now part of the problem. Hth. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Mar 19, 2015 |
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Mar 19, 2015 20:43
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Vahakyla posted:Except most good departments don't take hail mary passes with big fires. Fully involves and "maybe someone inside? gently caress it". Nice selective response. You said quote:no job will nor should require you to put your life on the line in the United States All the other jobs you somehow missed carry the risk of a sometimes gruesome death so people can have electricity and oil and eat king crab legs and not die in a house fire. Yes there are situations where its too risky for a firefighter. But they drat well risk their lives regularly if they believe they can save someones life and not die but still understand they are risking their own life in the process and somehow are willing to do it but for a cop a screwdriver is just too frightening.
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Mar 19, 2015 21:25
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Toasticle posted:Nice selective response. You said Literally every occupation has occupational hazards. It doesn't mean that by doing those jobs you "put your life on the line". They also practically never put your life on the line despite the popular image. I was way more likely to kill myself in the traffic while driving a car to the fire station than I was to kill myself doing anything worthwhile at the fire station. There are gruesome deaths in woodworking, milling, construction, food and beverage, airline piloting and poo poo. Yet the airline pilot doesn't "put his life on the line". Why? Because the occupational hazard is so retardedly low that it might as well not exist. It doesn't mean that we don't take precautions like every occupation does, but that only serves to make it even safer. Toasticle posted:But they drat well risk their lives regularly if they believe they can save someones life and not die but still understand they are risking their own life in the process We are not doing that, hth.
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Mar 19, 2015 21:33
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There is a very clear line between "I could die from a tree falling on me walking to work" and working a job that has carries the risk of death by its very nature. Look at nearly any list of dangerous jobs and fisherman, especially crab is almost always at the top of the list because the job itself has a risk of killing you in addition to all the other random crap you listed. It doesn't sound as heroic as "putting your life on the line" but many jobs carry a risk far far higher by their very nature and its not some mealy "I could die driving to work" risk. If you work in a coal mine you are accepting you could die from a shaft collapsing or flash fire from coal dust. "Food and beverage" doesn't risk the soda machine blowing up in their faces. And I guess news footage I've seen over decades of rescue workers trying to save people in floods and yes firefighters risking their life to try and rescue people were all special effects or something. loving Cory Booker ran into a burning house to save someone. You're saying this is all made up? No other fire/rescue profession ever risks their life for someone?
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Mar 19, 2015 21:50
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All those old and new videos of some firefighter getting wasted, maimed or torn or whatever doing whatever are used in training on examples of what not to do and what should be avoided. What Cory Booker did was brave, but not something you should do and sure as gently caress firefighters shouldn't go inside houses without breathing apparatuses and protective gear. Your image of firefighting is a romantic view infused with TV and Youtube, plus a good deal of hero worship. I don't even know completely how to answer or correct your view on this one. It's just nothing like that. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Mar 19, 2015 |
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Mar 19, 2015 22:03
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As a reminder, while cops rank in the top 15 of most deadly jobs, most of those deaths are car acccidents. Which is tragic, but the "I could be killed by a hulked out meth-head at any moment" attitude is even less based in reality than you might think.
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Mar 19, 2015 22:07
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If you want to make a comparison here, it would probably be better to use something like EMTs or social workers. Their jobs will put them into contact with people who are mentally ill, possibly violent, with probably more regularity than a police officer. But somehow we don't lionize social workers for 'putting their lives on the line', and we certainly don't expect that they will be killing people on a regular basis as part of defending themselves on the job. The situation is different for fishermen or firefighters or garbagemen because they will almost certainly be killed by the conditions of their workplace (fires, storms, machinery) than killed by other people that their job brings them into contact with.
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Mar 19, 2015 22:08
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Most firefighter deaths are from traffic accidents and not wearing a seatbelt or Myocardial infarctions caused by poor fitness and bad lifestyles. Dying because of something related to the structure fire is super rare. Also most firefighters handle medical calls in the United States, putting them in contact with the violent and mentally ill. A poo poo ton of policing is made safer in the long term with regards to injury and long-term inability to work by getting these: 
Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Mar 19, 2015 |
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Mar 19, 2015 22:14
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Vahakyla posted:Also most firefighters handle medical calls in the United States, putting them in contact with the violent and mentally ill. Got a family member who's an firefighter in central Florida, no poo poo 90% of his calls are medical.
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Mar 19, 2015 22:29
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Last station I worked at had, for its number one Engine, 3555 calls for service in the previous year, with 3244 being medical response. #rekt
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Mar 19, 2015 22:32
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Vahakyla posted:Last station I worked at had, for its number one Engine, 3555 calls for service in the previous year, with 3244 being medical response. His union is hilariously bad, but Florida. 
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Mar 19, 2015 22:35
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Most local IAFF chapters are basically ways to funnel money for a couple good old boys.
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Mar 19, 2015 22:36
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Well Vahakyla I get that you are downplaying the risk and danger of your former profession because you find it silly to be called a hero. That's admirable, and I wish more police would look at their jobs that way.
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Mar 19, 2015 23:19
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Zeitgueist posted:As a reminder, while cops rank in the top 15 of most deadly jobs, most of those deaths are car acccidents. I'm curious if that stat controls for people who work for the police and don't actually leave the building. I know someone quoted the crab fisherman statistic to me in regards to soldiers and when I dug into it if you control for people who deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan it suddenly became like 100x more deadly then crab fishing injuries.
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Mar 20, 2015 03:38
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Jarmak posted:I'm curious if that stat controls for people who work for the police and don't actually leave the building. I know someone quoted the crab fisherman statistic to me in regards to soldiers and when I dug into it if you control for people who deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan it suddenly became like 100x more deadly then crab fishing injuries. Start with this: How many police officers die each year vs. total amount of police officers in service? The most alarming thing about the whole Ferguson situation was the implication that it was a dangerous part of St. Louis, when it wasn't. Its crime rate isn't significantly different.
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Mar 20, 2015 04:28
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Job Truniht posted:Start with this: How many police officers die each year vs. total amount of police officers in service? Its about 11 per 100k, but I'm having trouble finding a number of how many of the ~900k police officers in the country do patrol duty. Best I've been able to find so far is 2/3rds, not controlling for patrol versus detectives. Jarmak fucked around with this message at 05:54 on Mar 20, 2015 |
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Mar 20, 2015 05:49
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Jarmak posted:Its about 11 per 100k, but I'm having trouble finding a number of how many of the ~900k police officers in the country do patrol duty. On norm it isn't radically dangerous. Sure you could filter the death rate of cops and really dive into the data, but even doing that I doubt you are going to get a significant change in how dangerous we currently understand the job to be. We are talking about something that has been measured countless times, and while you could maybe improve upon the methodology, you aren't going to change the significance enough to matter. Policing is without a doubt dangerous work, but this kill first attitude leads to the death of somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,000 people every year, and we don't even know the true number because it is self reported. Eric Garner doesn't count as a person killed by the cops because NY doesn't participate in federal self reporting. How can you have a conversation about police killing civilians when you can't even get reliable data?
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Mar 20, 2015 09:32
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Pohl posted:Policing is without a doubt dangerous work Was this established?
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Mar 20, 2015 14:25
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Pohl posted:Policing is without a doubt dangerous work http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2014/november/in-the-line-of-duty-2013-leoka-report-released/in-the-line-of-duty-2013-leoka-report-released It is stressful work, not particularly dangerous. Being a garbage man is dangerous work. So is being a fisherman, a truck driver, or a rancher. The actually dangerous jobs tend to pay less, and dont allow the worker the state sanctioned privilege of murdering people when they are in a bad mood. http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsmith/2013/08/22/americas-10-deadliest-jobs-2/ quote:Each year thousands of U.S. workers die from injuries on the job. In fact, the Bureau of Labor Statistics‘ National Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries shows a preliminary total of 4,383 fatal work injuries in 2012, down slightly from the final count of 4,693 in 2011. As someone else mentioned, "driving a car" is one of the contributions to LEO deaths, and when you remove that the number is even lower. You also have to parse official statements like: "Six of the slain officers were off-duty but felt duty-bound to intercede and were acting in an official capacity at the time of the incidents." to figure out if they were helping a poor victim, or drunk at a bar and pulled out their gun. Police are becoming more and more violent, while the nation becomes less. This is a crappy article, but gives enough to search from there: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/10/us-usa-crime-fbi-idUSKCN0IU1UM20141110 quote:U.S. violent crimes including murders fell 4.4 percent in 2013 to their lowest number since the 1970s, continuing a decades-long downturn, the FBI said on Monday.
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Mar 20, 2015 16:20
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Job Truniht posted:Start with this: How many police officers die each year vs. total amount of police officers in service?
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Mar 20, 2015 16:21
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My favorite is the guy who died of a heart attack while on a fitness run. That is counted as died in the line of duty.
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Mar 20, 2015 16:55
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FRINGE posted:It is not. The least bit of effort would have shown you this. 27 deaths in the entire year 2013. 48 in 2012. Actually there were 102 deaths in 2013, but good job taking the "murdered" number and passing it off as the "total deaths" number, the smugness about how easy it was to find correct numbers as you gave wrong numbers was a nice touch. You're also quoting the year with the lowest number of police fatalities on record, 2014 was 126 and 2011 was 171. http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/12/30/373985338/report-number-of-police-officers-killed-spikes-in-2014
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Mar 20, 2015 17:59
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Deap see fisherman and loggers should be carrying artillery.
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Mar 20, 2015 18:26
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Zeitgueist posted:Deap see fisherman and loggers should be carrying artillery. None of their occupational death's are "murdered"
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Mar 20, 2015 18:27
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loving hell that MH call video. That's how a robot programmed to respond via simple flowcharts would have handled the situation, not a human being capable of judgement and higher order thinking skills. A mother calls the police to help deal with her mentally unstable son, lets them in and calmly explains what's going on. The police then see that he's holding a screwdriver and immediately escalate to use of deadly force, shooting the mentally ill man to death in front of his own mother, as if there were no other possible way to resolve the situation despite the presence of multiple less than lethal tools. And don't start arguing with me about how long the screwdriver was or how fast the guy could have lunged at them or how suddenly all the less than lethal weapons the cops were festooned with were rendered useless for the exact situation they were designed for. The bottom line here is that the police did not give a single gently caress about the safety or welfare of the mother or the son in this situation. Their only concern here was leaving the scene without so much as a scratch between them, no matter what happened to the apparently worthless human beings who asked for their help. Somehow EMTs, doctors, nurses and other health care workers are able to deal with potentially violent mentally ill people without being heavily armed. If so many of the calls cops are summoned to involve the same people, why the gently caress aren't the police trained similarly?
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Mar 20, 2015 18:30
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Jarmak posted:Actually there were 102 deaths in 2013, but good job taking the "murdered" number and passing it off as the "total deaths" number, the smugness about how easy it was to find correct numbers as you gave wrong numbers was a nice touch. You're also quoting the year with the lowest number of police fatalities on record, 2014 was 126 and 2011 was 171. It also looks like there's been a trend since the early 70s of being lower numbers of deaths on the job all the time, despite an increase in population (~206 million to ~316 million) and presumably number of cops. Doing a little more digging, it seems possible that there was a local maximum in the 70s due to the start of the war on drugs. As far as I can tell, even accounting for that, it's been decreasing (and that's also ignoring the huge increase in the US incarcerated populating, indicating that it's getting safer for police despite them putting lots lots more people in jail). Lemming fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Mar 20, 2015 |
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Mar 20, 2015 18:31
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Jarmak posted:Actually there were 102 deaths in 2013, but good job taking the "murdered" number and passing it off as the "total deaths" number, the smugness about how easy it was to find correct numbers as you gave wrong numbers was a nice touch. You're also quoting the year with the lowest number of police fatalities on record, 2014 was 126 and 2011 was 171. You can shove the propaganda project "National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund" up your rear end. Stick to the FBI stats. The LEOKA reports contain breakdowns of every reported death, accidental or felonious, on duty or off duty "in an official capacity". The 2014 numbers are not yet compiled. Which you dont know because you didnt look. Your poo poo posting wont change any of the numbers.
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Mar 20, 2015 18:43
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Jarmak posted:None of their occupational death's are "murdered" Sure they are, by unsafe conditions, and capitalism. But having said that, they also wouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt if they shot a person to death. Maybe we should have a higher standard for police than Deadliest Catch? I dunno.
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Mar 20, 2015 18:49
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Hey how many folks did cops kill in that same time period? Oh wait we have no idea there are no concrete numbers. Why could that be?
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Mar 20, 2015 18:50
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FRINGE posted:Feloniously killed is relevant. Dying in a car accident while talking on a cell phone is less relevant. Not all jurisdictions participate in the UCR, and you straight up claimed your numbers included car accidents when you said FRINGE posted:As someone else mentioned, "driving a car" is one of the contributions to LEO deaths, and when you remove that the number is even lower. You're also comparing it to stats of non-police employment that include things like dying in a car accident while talking on a cell phone.
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Mar 20, 2015 18:51
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